Disco getting desperate

[jhuskey]

Because we have seen TM employ doctors who they knew were behind JU and company. We now know TM was dirty top to bottom with team endorsed doping. It's a fact. It's no longer just allegations. The other teams you mention simply have not been caught. When they are, and we will see more names follow then the same can be said about them.

Throughout this entire mess of the past year, we have yet to see Bruyneel and company attached to any doping. Assumptions and allegations are great for the press and forums, but without proof that is all they are.

I see nothing wrong with hiring Basso after he was given a clean bill of health by his country's cycling organization. . Of course we see that it was not a true one. It was a high risk move made by Bruyneel, but one that had to be made. But until we have proof that other teams have had team organized doping, TM was definetly the dirtiest team in cycling.
But at some point cycling is going to have to move on. If everyone that is alleged to have doped, or rides for a doped team cannot race, then we will see the sport's popularity really drop.

As for Discovery looking to China, it may be a wise move. Bruyneel has been lucky so far to have an American sponsor. As a American and a cycling fan, I personally hate seeing American sponsorship money over there. I would prefer the money from sponsors staying here to help the junior program and others,. I have been part of race promotions and I have seen how hard it is to get some money to put on a race. As a person who studied advertising in University, I understand Discovery's/US Postal's reasons for trying to penetrate the European market. Unless that is the reason, I would prefer the money to stay here. Cycling in the US is starting to get too expensive for the average person to get into . The high gas proces we see now will really have an effect on the sport if they stay high.

I have problems with the cycling organizations[American] wanting their riders to get good enough to ride in Europe. I believe if a rider gets to the point of a Lemond/Armstrong, then they need to do Europe on their own. [ala Lemond] Keep the money here and have more local racing.....

You lost me man, and TM is just in the Limelight(bad limelight) as of late as opposed to Phonak etc.,etc.
It all comes around. :

 

[limerickman]

I am very interested in this twist of logic that allows you to see admissions of doping as making "TM ... the most unethical team in recent history." Surely, by your own arguments in other posts, you agree that most other riders are doping? So what about Riis, Zabel, etc. fessing up makes TM so much more unethical than say Liberty/Astana, CSC, Discovery, Quickstep, who continue to keep to the omerta?

Agreed.

It doesn't make sense to say that Team XYZ are the dirtiest team in the sport because it would appear that all teams were doping to a lesser/greater extent.
Look at the rollcall of teams Kelme, Euskatel, Festina, Phonak, Liberty etc.
Riders from practically every team have failed tests.

DC's signing of Basso was crazy given that a cloud of doubt did surround Basso - despite the Italian federation's decision to give him a race licence.
The fact of the matter is that the UCI and the GT organisers were not prepared to accept that anyone named in OP could be clean.
And so it proved in Basso's case.

 

[limerickman]

Actually I think the most interesting part of the interview is about the weak financial structure of cycling. I will publish an interview with Harm Jansen and Sean Tucker (Both Toyota-United) about that in the coming week.

That's the central point, CH.
You've highlighted the burning issue.

All the cheating in recent years has already resulted in dwindling money coming in to the sport.
Riders and team staff are losing their jobs.

No sponsor with any shred of integrity would want to have their name tied to a sport where doping was encouraged and promoted.
This is the price which the sport is now paying for the cheating of it's stars with the connivance of the UCI.

 

[House]

Integrity? Are YOU really trying to talk about integrity?

 

[Doctor.House]

You lost me man, and TM is just in the Limelight(bad limelight) as of late as opposed to Phonak etc.,etc.
It all comes around. :

TM desreves plenty of abuse for deception, fraud and rampant doping cover ups. Jan Ulrich fled the scene wheares Riis, Aldag, Zabel did a PR dance confession. A band of brothers or the three stooges?

These drug addicts actually convinced fans that they were a clean squad. That the 2007 Bio-marker programs, whatever they called it, was the key to a clean roster---run by the EPO & steroid doping doctors, of course.

Anyone who believed a TM employee script was played for a fool.

That we know.

 

[Doctor.House]

Integrity? Are YOU really trying to talk about integrity?

What happed to the Nike slogan; "Fighting Cancer with Lance?"

Dr. Cuddy to the ICU stat.

 

[House]

What happed to the Nike slogan; "Fighting Cancer with Lance?"

Dr. Cuddy to the ICU stat.

Never used it here...what happened to your velodrome tough guy act????

 

[wilmar13]

American Cycling press just as desperate as Disco: Velonews:

Levi Leipheimer will be the team's best bet for the overall standings, with Bruyneel saying the California has a legitimate shot at earning a spot on the podium.

Other likely candidates include George Hincapie, the only rider to race in every Tour under the current ownership team that included the U.S. Postal Service and Discovery Channel sponsorhips.

The french mags that think Voekler is a podium contender are way more connected to reality... and I love Hincapie, but come on!

 

[sogood]

Desperate? Or extremely smart? Talk about reaching into an untapped resource / market. China has over a billion people alone... Now granted, a lot are extremely poor, but the economy is booming and growing so fast and there is a decent amount of wealthy people

Get a chinese sponsor. Sell your apparel to billions of people. Trek / Bontrager make a gold mine when chinese citizens want to follow 'their' team. It's a biz-nas mannnn.

I agree and there's definitely a potential market there. Giant has been doing very well there to the exclusion of most other majors.

 

[jhuskey]

TM desreves plenty of abuse for deception, fraud and rampant doping cover ups. Jan Ulrich fled the scene wheares Riis, Aldag, Zabel did a PR dance confession. A band of brothers or the three stooges?

These drug addicts actually convinced fans that they were a clean squad. That the 2007 Bio-marker programs, whatever they called it, was the key to a clean roster---run by the EPO & steroid doping doctors, of course.

Anyone who believed a TM employee script was played for a fool.

That we know.

I have no love for TM but I can't say they are the worst team ever. They are just getting the bad press right now.
So let's not be blind and say everyone else is lilly white just because some team is having "got caught, bad luck day".

 

[cyclingheroes]

That's the central point, CH.
You've highlighted the burning issue.

All the cheating in recent years has already resulted in dwindling money coming in to the sport.
Riders and team staff are losing their jobs.

No sponsor with any shred of integrity would want to have their name tied to a sport where doping was encouraged and promoted.
This is the price which the sport is now paying for the cheating of it's stars with the connivance of the UCI.

I meant the financial structure. 99% of all teams are depending on 1 title sponsor (they have other sponsors, but they would not be able to keep the team alive). In soccer the main sponsor often is about 10 or 15% of the budget (like the example Bruyneel gave in the interview - Siemens & Real Madrid). There are interesting projects to change that (Toyota-United in the US, FC Rheinland Pfalz in Germany)

 

[Doctor.House]

That's the central point, CH.
You've highlighted the burning issue.

All the cheating in recent years has already resulted in dwindling money coming in to the sport.
Riders and team staff are losing their jobs.

No sponsor with any shred of integrity would want to have their name tied to a sport where doping was encouraged and promoted.
This is the price which the sport is now paying for the cheating of it's stars with the connivance of the UCI.

If only lim's Corinthian ideals were widely held.

Lim: Please quit with these baseless claims. The financial facts do not support your noble sentiments. The market may adjust down--but it will not evaporate. Doping and event fixing BRINGS in high TV ratings $$$$ and sponsorship interest, not the reverse. An undoped sport is NOT marketable today.

This was an issue after Festina too. Then Lance saved the day.

The IOC is a FOR-PROFIT enterprise. It serves its masters--corporate advertisers, many of whom sit on the IOC board committees and all have TV media consultants nearby. Who can amortize the cost of a satellite? GE, Disney, Newscorp, Time Warner, one or two other. Media is a very small industry.

Doping at the Olympics is exempted by controlling the stories so that doping proof is minimized or unreported. Anyone remember the 'circle of trust' in Turino Village (Italian police were banned from the Village by NBC) at the Winter games of 2006? The Austrian ski team blood bust? Walter Maier's customs border agent car crash (suicide attempt) in the Dolimites?

None of the Olympic sponsors have a problem with cheating---none whatsoever. They want results, high ratings and happy sales revenues. The rest is irrelevant. Sport is irrelevant---only entertainment ratings $$$ are compulsory.

So long as a sponsor has confidence in the media news reporting---they will wire over MILLIONS of underwriting fees. Did Festina abandon the Tour?

That is how Disney Holding succeeds with ESPN & ABC. They controll and market their TV partner's doped sports (college football, NFL, MBL, NBA) They got George Mitchell, Disney Chairman) named as the baseball steroid auditor. can you imagine a more dishonest selection??????

Hein Verbruggen is no different. The UCI and IOC are doping platforms for mass media.

**** Pound is very suspect too. A big Red Herring with no authority, no money to catch anyone. But he is great public relations for TV viewers.

Consumers are lead like sheep. The media plays into that weakness.

The sponsors and doping will stay---so long as fans refuse to BOYCOTT.

 

[limerickman]

If only lim's Corinthian ideals were widely held.

Lim: Please quit with these baseless claims. The financial facts do not support your noble sentiments. The market may adjust down--but it will not evaporate. Doping and event fixing BRINGS in high TV ratings $$$$ and sponsorship interest, not the reverse. An undoped sport is NOT marketable today.

This was an issue after Festina too. Then Lance saved the day.

The IOC is a FOR-PROFIT enterprise. It serves its masters--corporate advertisers, many of whom sit on the IOC board committees and all have TV media consultants nearby. Who can amortize the cost of a satellite? GE, Disney, Newscorp, Time Warner, one or two other. Media is a very small industry.

Doping at the Olympics is exempted by controlling the stories so that doping proof is minimized or unreported. Anyone remember the 'circle of trust' in Turino Village (Italian police were banned from the Village by NBC) at the Winter games of 2006? The Austrian ski team blood bust? Walter Maier's customs border agent car crash (suicide attempt) in the Dolimites?

None of the Olympic sponsors have a problem with cheating---none whatsoever. They want results, high ratings and happy sales revenues. The rest is irrelevant. Sport is irrelevant---only entertainment ratings $$$ are compulsory.

So long as a sponsor has confidence in the media news reporting---they will wire over MILLIONS of underwriting fees. Did Festina abandon the Tour?

That is how Disney Holding succeeds with ESPN & ABC. They controll and market their TV partner's doped sports (college football, NFL, MBL, NBA) They got George Mitchell, Disney Chairman) named as the baseball steroid auditor. can you imagine a more dishonest selection??????

Hein Verbruggen is no different. The UCI and IOC are doping platforms for mass media.

**** Pound is very suspect too. A big Red Herring with no authority, no money to catch anyone. But he is great public relations for TV viewers.

Consumers are lead like sheep. The media plays into that weakness.

The sponsors and doping will stay---so long as fans refuse to BOYCOTT.

Fair enough.

You're probably correct in stating that the profit motive and doping go hand in hand.
Personally, I find that very disheartening.
It may sound naive but to me sport should be pure - it should be about man
pushing the limits through self sacrifice/ability/luck etc.

I know that this may all seem very "Chariots of Fire"-like.
Sport to me is something precious.

 

[Doctor.House]

Fair enough.

You're probably correct in stating that the profit motive and doping go hand in hand.
Personally, I find that very disheartening.
It may sound naive but to me sport should be pure - it should be about man
pushing the limits through self sacrifice/ability/luck etc.

I know that this may all seem very "Chariots of Fire"-like.
Sport to me is something precious.

I agree wholeheartedly. But what can we do outside of these ugly disclosures?

I mean the sports with the cleanest images--are just media controlled with iron fists. (media advertisers control the printed words)

This NFL steroid doctor killed a patient with a botched chelation threapy---was convicted of steroid dealing and settled a wrong death civil case too---but never got any air time on ESPN despite having doped the 2004 Super Bowl Carolina Panthers.
http://www.casewatch.org/doj/shortt/indictment.shtml


Phil Liggett & Bon Roll are great examples of a remote controlled TV shills.

 

[limerickman]

I agree wholeheartedly. But what can we do outside of these ugly disclosures?

I mean the sports with the cleanest images--are just media controlled with iron fists. (media advertisers control the printed words)

.

Couple of general points.

Affirmative action is required.

I've cited the sport of rowing before.
All doping is prohibited in rowing
Anyone caught doping is banned for life. Without exception.
No two year, watered down sentences there.
Bans for life.

Your point about money going hand in hand with cheating is a good place to start as well.
Anyone caught doping not only forfeits their career, they ought to be required to repay all prize money won in their career on the basis that once a cheat always a cheat.

If the perceived benefit to doping is money - then the perceived cost to doping must also be money.

 

[fscyclist]

Fair enough.

You're probably correct in stating that the profit motive and doping go hand in hand.
Personally, I find that very disheartening.
It may sound naive but to me sport should be pure - it should be about man
pushing the limits through self sacrifice/ability/luck etc.

I know that this may all seem very "Chariots of Fire"-like.
Sport to me is something precious.

Lim,
I second your sentiment. I too believe sport is something precious and cycling, in my mind, was a great sport. It's funny people mention crew as another great sport, and I agree to an extent, but I think that sport has truly avoided much of the doping because it is a very non-commercial sport. For years, cycling was the same. With the advent of pros in the olympics and mega team sponsorships that coincidentally began in the 90's we've seen cycling lose its purity. I'm not naive to think that doping wasn't a part of the sport, but in the 90's, pro cycling fundamentally changed.

I know many people see growth of the sport as a great thing, but I'm not so sure if it attracts people focused on business and lose sight of the sporting nature. I still maintain that true sport is not entertainment, it is something much greater, and the loss of it is a true travesty.

 

[fscyclist]

...
Phil Liggett & Bon Roll are great examples of a remote controlled TV shills.

I watched the Dauphine/TOS on OLN this weekend and Liggett again ****** me off. He commented about how Zabel has lost a lot of respect (in his opinion) because he admitted doping. Is this guy for real? So admitting doping, when we know everyone was doing it, is a reason to lose respect? What about the shills that continue to deny doping facing mountains of evidence? Does Liggett respect them?

I wish they would fire the old sap. He can't call a race to save his life. Sure, he adds some excitement and inflection to his voice at the end of the race, but he could just as well be reciting Homer, because his comments are no more applicable to the racing on screen.

I still think Sherwen adds some insight, but Liggett is now just pathetic.

 

[wolfix]

Lim,
For years, cycling was the same. With the advent of pros in the olympics and mega team sponsorships that coincidentally began in the 90's we've seen cycling lose its purity. I'm not naive to think that doping wasn't a part of the sport, but in the 90's, pro cycling fundamentally changed.

Not even close to the truth. Cycling has always been dirty since the early century......Cycling has not changed at all. Historically, cycling is right there with boxing as being the dirtiest sport there is. And not just with dope. Having pre-determined winners, nationalism, and crooked race promoters have been part of this sport.
Want pure cycling????? Go to a little kids big wheel race in your city park.

 

[Doctor.House]

Not even close to the truth. Cycling has always been dirty since the early century......Cycling has not changed at all. Historically, cycling is right there with boxing as being the dirtiest sport there is. And not just with dope. Having pre-determined winners, nationalism, and crooked race promoters have been part of this sport.
Want pure cycling????? Go to a little kids big wheel race in your city park.

Sad but true.

Even Magoo would agree with Wolfy on that point.

 

[fscyclist]

Not even close to the truth. Cycling has always been dirty since the early century......Cycling has not changed at all. Historically, cycling is right there with boxing as being the dirtiest sport there is. And not just with dope. Having pre-determined winners, nationalism, and crooked race promoters have been part of this sport.
Want pure cycling????? Go to a little kids big wheel race in your city park.

So what were your drugs of choice when racing?