Disk brakes - the story so far (long)

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Keith, Apr 4, 2003.

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  1. Keith

    Keith Guest

    (Please comment, but quote only the relevant lines from this long post)

    There have been two main threads on aus.bicycle this year on disk brakes. The following is my
    personal selection of the matters raised and conclusions reached, cutting 18 pages down to 2 1/2. I
    have not attributed or dated any quotations; you can locate the originals by accessing aus.bicycle
    through Google and searching.

    The first thread began on 27 February and the second on 26 March 2003

    ___Disk brake pros____ I still think that most people get disks for reasons other than their greater
    braking power and effectiveness

    In the wet and mud they remain consistent all the way thru. Also in the wet the disk gives almost
    identical braking effectiveness to what it is in the dry. This is very different from rims.
    Performance in wet and muddy conditions is critical to a lot of MTBers, and rims will never compete
    with disks in that.

    They look awesome/cool

    Very good modulation (fine control over braking power). Braking modulation is very important to most
    riders; any rim brake can lock a wheel but it's much harder to *not* lock a wheel while still
    getting close to maximum braking.

    Not being affected by buckles and rim damage can be critical especially in endurance events.

    Braking surface further away from puddles, mud, rocks etc.

    Don't have to release callipers/V's to remove wheel

    Less lever effort (not a big deal for most riders)

    Because the braking force is being applied to a disk of steel by a compact calliper unit as opposed
    to a hollow rim of aluminium by comparatively spindly callipers, then the braking force applied to a
    disk can be massively higher than the force applied to a rim without fear of breaking the brakes /
    rim / pads / components.

    The holes in brake rotors are there to scrape off pad and foreign material.

    Prolonged rim braking on very long descents causes heat dissipation from the rims into the tyres
    which can lead to tyre burst.

    ____Cons____ More expensive initially

    More difficult to maintain/repair (not much more). Not so sure: I find adjusting pad position _much_
    easier (Avid Mechanicals). Just dial each pad in, rather than gambling with springs etc.

    Can't have low spoke count wheels. Nor radial spokes (as opposed to crossed spokes).

    Heavier unless at the top end, where the $$$ are, or heavy V-brakes at moment (also factor hub
    weight, and stronger spokes, nipples etc)

    Limited availability of specialized parts when travelling

    Not all frames support disc brakes

    On average, non-extreme bikes rim brakes are sufficient to stop the bike adequately and heat
    dissipation is not a problem. If you ride a MTB off-road, heat dissipation and brake fade due to
    water and mud is a big problem. Disks remove this problem.

    I worry about the rotors being whacked on something in the rocky terrain around Townsville :) and as
    for just throwing it into the back of the ute, I have to be more careful.

    ____Attachment standards____ there are two different attachment standards

    ____Comments on brands____ **Formula mech: has had a bad rap. Weel, I've got a Formula hydraulic on
    the front; love the hydraulic 'cos the fluid pumps up so that irrespective of pad wear the brake
    actuation remains the same.

    **Avid: IIRC, can definitely recommend Avid mech. You should be able to find plenty of reviews that
    say the same. I do like the fact that the Avids are so easy to adjust.

    **Hayes - they are great, clear of all the dirt, water and debris, plenty of power and modulation,
    pads last for ages and zero maintenance needed in 2 years.

    **Shimano - the Shimano Deore mech discs are very fine. Easy one finger braking, no problem with
    power or modulation, I can recommend them highly for a good value disc brake.

    I've certainly noticed that my Shimanos do stretch the cables a fair bit, now that I'm doing a lot
    of offroad with steep descents - I find that I am tweaking the lever adjustment every second or
    third ride, and adjusting the cable at the brake housing every 15 to 20 rides.

    ____Pannier rack and disk brake compatibility____ Don't see why not. The disk sits inside the frame
    so will be out of the way. I guess it depends where the pannier attaches, and where the brake bosses
    attach. I needed to make two bushes about 1cm thick to ensure the rack did not hit the brake
    calliper on the rear.

    ____Touring bikes____ Try descending a long steep descent from the High Country, in wet conditions
    on a rough dirt road, or in very hot conditions and you'll be persuaded about the advantage of discs
    for touring.

    Not being affected by buckles and rim damage can be critical especially in endurance events.

    I haven't tried hydraulic brakes on tours, but I wonder how practical these would be on longish
    tours in the backwoods where there may not be any bike shops with extensive stock (unless you carry
    hydraulic fluid and repair spares with you).

    Hydraulic fluid bleed kits are relatively compact, so it's not impossible.

    I wouldn't expect you'd get much service on busted discs in a third world country. Preferable to
    take a conventional equipped tourer. Even then there's still plenty of possibilities for stuff-ups.
    However if you had hydro discs and they just needed bleeding you should be able to get dot 4 hydro
    fluid and someone who could help at a motor mechanics shop.

    ___Disk brake types____
    (1) mechanical (cable actuated) and (2) hydraulic

    If hydraulic cables are the most vulnerable part of a hydraulic disc brake system, perhaps cable
    discs may be good options.

    Every report that I've heard suggests that most cable discs suck, and good V-brakes are much better.

    Many of the posts on cable discs make a lot of fuss about the performance "degradation" with the
    wearing of the cables. I wouldn't have imagined that it would be worse than the effect of cable wear
    on V-brakes.

    ____Myths____

    2. Disk brakes permit greater braking force, unlike rim brakes which are vulnerable to breaking /
    crushing rims. Not so.

    3. Steel is a better braking surface. Not so: aluminium/alloy is better in terms of both heat
    dissipation and friction, but their disadvantage is that they can still overheat

    4. Disks are significantly heavier. Not so: for brake sets of a similar price, the difference is
    only 100g or so, not significant.
     
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  2. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Keith:

    > (Please comment, but quote only the relevant lines from this long post)
    >
    > Because the braking force is being applied to a disk of steel by a compact calliper unit as
    > opposed to a hollow rim of aluminium by comparatively spindly callipers, then the braking force
    > applied to a disk can be massively higher than the force applied to a rim without fear of breaking
    > the brakes / rim / pads / components.

    For the same braking effort, a much higher caliper force is required on discs than on rim brakes
    because of the smaller diameter of the rotors. It's not a consequence.

    I suggest you read the recent "more on disc brakes" thread on rec.bicycles.tech and the safety
    issues in the combination of standard "vertical" fork dropouts, disc brake caliper placement and
    QR skewers.

    If you must use disc brakes, ensure the QR is always tightly done and your fork has so-called
    "lawyer lips". Best is to use 20mm bolt through axles. Also be aware that Manitou and Fox (at least)
    recommend against using 203mm (DH) rotors on their non-DH specific forks (with warranty being
    voided). You can find the moment calculations I made on why this is so.
     
  3. Keith wrote:

    > In the wet and mud they remain consistent all the way thru. Also in the wet the disk gives almost
    > identical braking effectiveness to what it is in the dry. This is very different from rims.
    > Performance in wet and muddy conditions is critical to a lot of MTBers, and rims will never
    > compete with disks in that.

    While this is a valid argument in some parts of the world, such as my native UK, I think it's
    irrelevent for most mountain bike use in Australia - people just don't ride in the wet much here, in
    my observation. Whereas in places like the UK, not riding in the wet almost means not riding!

    > Prolonged rim braking on very long descents causes heat dissipation from the rims into the tyres
    > which can lead to tyre burst.

    For tandems, yes, but I don't think any of the disk manfacturers warrantees their brakes for tandem
    use (if anyone knows different let me know, I'd love disks on my tandem). I've never heard of a solo
    blowing a tyre off the rim from rim heating.

    >
    > ____Cons____

    > Can't have low spoke count wheels. Nor radial spokes (as opposed to crossed spokes).

    This should be listed under 'Pro' as: "Prevents you from demonstrating that you are a technically
    clueless fashion-following muppet who has swallowed wheel maker marketing BS."
     
  4. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    John Stevenson:

    > Keith wrote:

    > > Prolonged rim braking on very long descents causes heat dissipation from the rims into the tyres
    > > which can lead to tyre burst.
    >
    > For tandems, yes, but I don't think any of the disk manfacturers warrantees their brakes for
    > tandem use (if anyone knows different let me know, I'd love disks on my tandem). I've never heard
    > of a solo blowing a tyre off the rim from rim heating.

    It's not the disc brakes you have to worry about, but rather your fork and specifically, the
    dropouts. Vertical dropouts (especially without the protruding lips) and disc brakes seem to be a
    bad combination, with a good argument for this existing in the form of a force analysis on the axle
    when disc brake is applied. There also seems to be many anecdotal evidence in one of the sites
    posted at rec.bicycles.tech (look under "more on disk brakes...").
     
  5. "John Stevenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Keith wrote:
    >
    > > In the wet and mud they remain consistent all the way thru. Also in the wet the disk gives
    > > almost identical braking effectiveness to what it is in the dry.

    <snip>

    > I think it's irrelevent for most mountain bike use in Australia - people just don't ride in the
    > wet much here, in my observation.

    Hello there, from southern Victoria. A different viewpoint. Yes, down here we do ride in plenty of
    mud - although last winter was an exception with the worst drought in 100 years. Normal weather
    programing will be resumed shortly.

    On my old rigid, used off road and for touring, I wore out the rim sidewalls in 5 years of not too
    heavy use. Muddy autumn and spring rides in the forests of the Dandenongs and Murrundinidi were a
    major cause of the wear.

    Cheers Peter
     
  6. Andyb

    Andyb Guest

    "John Stevenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > While this is a valid argument in some parts of the world, such as my native UK, I think it's
    > irrelevent for most mountain bike use in Australia - people just don't ride in the wet much here,
    > in my observation.

    Speak for yourself. As a commuter, I ride in the wet quite regularly (Brisbane, so not too cold).
    I've been eyeing-off the new flat-bar road bikes with disk brake setup, at least partly for better
    wet weather braking.

    > > Prolonged rim braking on very long descents causes heat dissipation from the rims into the tyres
    > > which can lead to tyre burst.
    >

    > I've never heard of a solo blowing a tyre off the rim from rim heating.

    It happens. A mate was descending the back of Mt Glorious with a light touring load and blew a
    decent quality mountain bike slick (specialized fatboy I think).

    Ciao,

    AndyB
     
  7. Peter Signorini wrote:

    > Hello there, from southern Victoria. A different viewpoint. Yes, down here we do ride in plenty of
    > mud - although last winter was an exception with the worst drought in 100 years. Normal weather
    > programing will be resumed shortly.
    >
    > On my old rigid, used off road and for touring, I wore out the rim sidewalls in 5 years of not too
    > heavy use. Muddy autumn and spring rides in the forests of the Dandenongs and Murrundinidi were a
    > major cause of the wear.

    Ah, yep, having no experience of Victoria weather I'd forgotten that your rainfall pattern is more
    like the UK's (less rain in total than Sydney, but more rainy days, so more likely to be wet). Makes
    sense there then.

    --
    John Stevenson Cyclingnews.com
     
  8. AndyB wrote:
    > "John Stevenson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>While this is a valid argument in some parts of the world, such as my native UK, I think it's
    >>irrelevent for most mountain bike use in Australia - people just don't ride in the wet much here,
    >>in my observation.
    >
    > Speak for yourself.

    'I think' and 'in my observation' rather implied I was doing just that... I thought.

    > As a commuter, I ride in the wet quite regularly (Brisbane, so not too cold). I've been eyeing-off
    > the new flat-bar road bikes with disk brake setup, at least partly for better wet weather braking.

    Tempted to go that way for my next commute bike too (though with drops please), but I worry that the
    forces a disk puts on the dropouts aren't being thought about by the makers of those bikes. Now, if
    I could get a road fork that would take a 20mm though-axle, then you'd be talking...

    --
    John Stevenson Cyclingnews.com
     
  9. Random Data

    Random Data Guest

    John Stevenson <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > Now, if I could get a road fork that would take a 20mm though-axle, then you'd be talking...

    What's wrong with a Z1?

    Dave - who hasn't ridden that bike to work for a while...

    --
    Dave Hughes [email protected] It typically takes 25-30 gallons of petrol/diesel to
    fully-consume an average- sized body under ideal conditions. That I am conversant with this level of
    detail should serve as an indication of why the wise man does not ask me questions about
    MS-Windows." -Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
     
  10. Tony F

    Tony F Guest

    On 4 Apr 2003 03:49:22 -0800, [email protected] (Keith) wrote:

    ><snip>
    >
    >Every report that I've heard suggests that most cable discs suck, and good V-brakes are
    >much better.
    >
    >Many of the posts on cable discs make a lot of fuss about the performance "degradation" with the
    >wearing of the cables. I wouldn't have imagined that it would be worse than the effect of cable
    >wear on V-brakes.

    I have Avid mechanicals. They don't suck, and perform almost as well as hydraulics. whether that's
    better than perfectly set up high end Vs is a moot point - they're better than any Vs or cantis I've
    ever used, and setup is much easier.

    I understand some of the early mechanicals weren't much chop - eg Formulas, eh Dave? Maybe that's
    where this belief stems from?

    I haven't adjusted my brake *cables* at all in over two years of discs
    - all adjustment has been in the pad position only. I have worn out the original pads, but the
    aftermarket replacements (EBC) have lasted more than twice as long.

    I won't be going back anytime soon.

    Tony F
     
  11. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    tony f:

    > I have Avid mechanicals. They don't suck, and perform almost as well as hydraulics. whether that's
    > better than perfectly set up high end Vs is a moot point - they're better than any Vs or cantis
    > I've ever used, and setup is much easier.
    >
    > I understand some of the early mechanicals weren't much chop - eg Formulas, eh Dave? Maybe that's
    > where this belief stems from?
    >
    > I haven't adjusted my brake *cables* at all in over two years of discs
    > - all adjustment has been in the pad position only. I have worn out the original pads, but the
    > aftermarket replacements (EBC) have lasted more than twice as long.
    >
    > I won't be going back anytime soon.

    What kind of fork are you using with your discs? Have you ever had any issues with QRs loosening or
    moving on the dropouts?
     
  12. A - J - S

    A - J - S Guest

    I run disk on a Judy XC with no issues. This seems to be the norm for most ppl who run disks. Not to
    say that there are not problems just that the majority of ppl with disks don't experience them. I do
    find it interesting that the failure rate seems to be ever so low in comparison to what it should be
    if these issues are as serious as some ppl believe. One wonders if the failures are due more to
    specific (and isolated) issues than the general problem ?

    AJS

    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > tony f:
    >
    > > I have Avid mechanicals. They don't suck, and perform almost as well as hydraulics. whether
    > > that's better than perfectly set up high end Vs is a moot point - they're better than any Vs or
    > > cantis I've ever used, and setup is much easier.
    > >
    > > I understand some of the early mechanicals weren't much chop - eg Formulas, eh Dave? Maybe
    > > that's where this belief stems from?
    > >
    > > I haven't adjusted my brake *cables* at all in over two years of discs
    > > - all adjustment has been in the pad position only. I have worn out the original pads, but the
    > > aftermarket replacements (EBC) have lasted more than twice as long.
    > >
    > > I won't be going back anytime soon.
    >
    > What kind of fork are you using with your discs? Have you ever had any issues with QRs loosening
    > or moving on the dropouts?
     
  13. "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > What kind of fork are you using with your discs? Have you ever had any issues with QRs loosening
    > or moving on the dropouts?

    Using SID 100 forks with Hayes hydraulic discs with no problems at all. Less adjustment and work
    than my old cantilevers as the pads are self-adjusted by the pistons. I have certainnly never
    experienced any movements of the wheel in the dropouts like you are referring to. A couple of times
    I have actually found that I have not tightened the QRs up enough ([email protected]&se), and there is a bit of
    axle movement when I bounce the wheel, but the axle never shifts. This is because of the 'lawyer
    lugs' which virtually every bike or fork manufacturer puts on the dropouts now. Some talk of filing
    these out, but do this to a suspension fork and bingo! You instantly invalidate any warranty.

    Surely the weight of yourself on the bike will over-ride any upwards force caused by the disc
    action. If I undo my QRs and loosen them off, then apply the disc with forward force, the wheel
    doesn't move out of the dropout - even lifting the wheel of the ground the wheel remains in the
    dropout. I really don't see this as a major problem and have never heard of it occurring.

    Cheers Peter
     
  14. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    A - J - S:

    >
    > I run disk on a Judy XC with no issues. This seems to be the norm for most ppl who run disks. Not
    > to say that there are not problems just that the majority of ppl with disks don't experience them.
    > I do find it interesting that the failure rate seems to be ever so low in comparison to what it
    > should be if these issues are as serious as some ppl believe. One wonders if the failures are due
    > more to specific (and isolated) issues than the general problem ?
    >
    >
    > AJS
    >

    It's probable that wheel dislodgements with discs on "vertical" dropouts happen most when braking
    very hard from high speeds such as in steep descents, and when QRs aren't sufficiently tight. Since
    most mountain bikes (with discs or not) are only ever used in much milder operations, it may account
    for the few instances of this happening.

    Apart from a force analysis of the system, the tendency for wheel dislodgement with disc brakes
    and vertical dropouts is easily demonstrated by a practical test. Remove the skewer on the front
    hub, stand by your bike and apply the brake such that the front wheel is locked. Push the bike
    forward and note that the disc side of the axle will slide out of the dropout, while the opposite
    side will stay on.

    The question then is how tight should the QR be to prevent this from happening. It's practically
    very difficult to measure how hard the lever should feel for "sufficiently tight", so I'm curious
    whether on average QRs are done up sufficiently for most people such that wheel dislodgements
    rarely happen.

    > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > tony f:
    > >
    > > > I have Avid mechanicals. They don't suck, and perform almost as well as hydraulics. whether
    > > > that's better than perfectly set up high end Vs is a moot point - they're better than any Vs
    > > > or cantis I've ever used, and setup is much easier.
    > > >
    > > > I understand some of the early mechanicals weren't much chop - eg Formulas, eh Dave? Maybe
    > > > that's where this belief stems from?
    > > >
    > > > I haven't adjusted my brake *cables* at all in over two years of discs
    > > > - all adjustment has been in the pad position only. I have worn out the original pads, but the
    > > > aftermarket replacements (EBC) have lasted more than twice as long.
    > > >
    > > > I won't be going back anytime soon.
    > >
    > > What kind of fork are you using with your discs? Have you ever had any issues with QRs loosening
    > > or moving on the dropouts?
     
  15. "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > It's probable that wheel dislodgements with discs on "vertical" dropouts happen most when braking
    > very hard from high speeds such as in steep descents, and when QRs aren't sufficiently tight.
    > Since most mountain bikes (with discs or not) are only ever used in much milder operations, it may
    > account for the few instances of this happening.

    Most of my MTB friends do ride steepish terrain, and pretty quick. I have never heard of any
    instances of wheel dislodgements due to any cause. But then it could just be that we are all fussy
    with our QRs.
    >
    > Apart from a force analysis of the system, the tendency for wheel dislodgement with disc brakes
    > and vertical dropouts is easily demonstrated by a practical test. Remove the skewer on the front
    > hub, stand by your bike and apply the brake such that the front wheel is locked. Push the bike
    > forward and note that the disc side of the axle will slide out of the dropout, while the opposite
    > side will stay on.

    Tried this little number and the LH side of the axle did move about 3 mm, on close observation. It
    could only move out of the dropout if the rear of the dropout actually broke off.
    >
    > The question then is how tight should the QR be to prevent this from happening.

    For me it's tight enough that I can still undo the damn QR without too much strain. Mine can easily
    be overtightened.

    > It's practically very difficult to measure how hard the lever should feel for "sufficiently
    > tight", so I'm curious whether on average QRs are done up sufficiently for most people such that
    > wheel dislodgements rarely happen.

    Correct, I believe. I will of course take your point on board and check the QRs regularly.

    Cheers Peter
     
  16. Tony F

    Tony F Guest

    On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:45:20 GMT, Jose Rizal <[email protected]_._> wrote:

    >tony f:
    >
    >> I have Avid mechanicals. They don't suck, and perform almost as well as hydraulics. whether
    >> that's better than perfectly set up high end Vs is a moot point - they're better than any Vs or
    >> cantis I've ever used, and setup is much easier.
    >>
    <snip>
    >>
    >> I won't be going back anytime soon.
    >
    >What kind of fork are you using with your discs? Have you ever had any issues with QRs loosening or
    >moving on the dropouts?

    I've got Judy XCs. At first I had problems, but only because I was putting the QR in the wrong
    position - the forks were so much thicker than my old ones the QR wasn't completely closed if I used
    the old position.

    Once I got that through my thick skull, never a problem with loosening. I now put the QR almost
    upright, just ahead of the fork - it still tucks in well out of the way of any rampaging shrubbery.

    Tony F
     
  17. Redbears

    Redbears Guest

    Did no one say anything about Hope disc barkes?? I have been using these for about three years now
    and they have been great. Just had the fluid changed and brakes adjusted for $38, not sure if that
    is a good deal or not but I am happy with the work.

    Nice summary Keith.

    rb

    [email protected] (Keith) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > ____Comments on brands____ **Formula mech: has had a bad rap. Weel, I've got a Formula hydraulic
    > on the front; love the hydraulic 'cos the fluid pumps up so that irrespective of pad wear the
    > brake actuation remains the same.
    >
    > **Avid: IIRC, can definitely recommend Avid mech. You should be able to find plenty of reviews
    > that say the same. I do like the fact that the Avids are so easy to adjust.
    >
    > **Hayes - they are great, clear of all the dirt, water and debris, plenty of power and modulation,
    > pads last for ages and zero maintenance needed in 2 years.
    >
    > **Shimano - the Shimano Deore mech discs are very fine. Easy one finger braking, no problem with
    > power or modulation, I can recommend them highly for a good value disc brake.
    >
    > I've certainly noticed that my Shimanos do stretch the cables a fair bit, now that I'm doing a lot
    > of offroad with steep descents - I find that I am tweaking the lever adjustment every second or
    > third ride, and adjusting the cable at the brake housing every 15 to 20 rides.
     
  18. Keith wrote:

    > (Please comment, but quote only the relevant lines from this long post)
    >
    > There have been two main threads on aus.bicycle this year on disk brakes.

    Sorry to be picky but they are actually disc brakes, disks are what you use with your computer. Just
    a pet hate of mine people misspelling disc.

    As to the actual subject of discs...I've never ridden a bike with them and for the type of riding I
    do (mostly commuting on paths or sealed roads) they would be a waste of money.
     
  19. Keith

    Keith Guest

    Ross MacPherson <[email protected]> wrote...
    > Keith wrote:

    > > There have been two main threads on aus.bicycle this year on disk brakes.
    >
    > Sorry to be picky but they are actually disc brakes, disks are what you use with your computer.
    > Just a pet hate of mine people misspelling disc.

    Hmmmm. I was wondering if anyone would raise this. I really didn't know the answer, but now that
    it's been raised, I checked a couple of good, recent dictionaries. I find there that the word comes
    from the Greek <diskos> which was the weapon thrown for sport in the original Olympic Games 2500
    years ago. Then it was picked up by the Romans to cover flat circular objects more generally,
    including the appearance of the full moon. It became <disc> for the Romans. You're quite right
    about present-day use: disk is the more common spelling in the world of computers (and the most
    common form across the US); <disc> is the more common form for brakes (and generally more common
    across the UK).

    I'll slip into line from now on and will refer to <disc brakes> and <computer disks>.

    Keith
     
  20. Mike Ayling

    Mike Ayling Guest

    [email protected] (Keith) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Ross MacPherson <[email protected]> wrote...
    > > Keith wrote:
    >
    > > > There have been two main threads on aus.bicycle this year on disk brakes.
    > >
    > > Sorry to be picky but they are actually disc brakes, disks are what you use with your computer.
    > > Just a pet hate of mine people misspelling disc.

    As far as I am concerned I use the English spelling "disc" for both computer components and brake
    components. Mr Gates and the rest of the American based computer industry may do as they please! I
    suspect that the American automobile industry also uses the word "disk" for brake components.

    Mike (I hate the American way of spelling) Ayling
     
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