Distance Run Blues

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by R.Robinson, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. R.Robinson

    R.Robinson Guest

    I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13. Currently I run
    40miles per week, I have been doing this distance for three months now, as
    follows;
    tues-8-800meter repeats @ 3:15 each
    Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile
    Thurs-8miles @7:45 per mile
    Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile
    [email protected]:30 per mile
    Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills two times a week at 9:50 pace
    Sunday alternate 25 miles, (12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline
    going, the same incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

    I have been running for about seven years but never at
    these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
    just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
    also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
    November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
    1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
    race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
    accustomed to higher mileage?
    2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after consuming
    three GU, 24oz of Gatorade during the run. Should I
    consume a powerbar or something like that to give me
    that last UMPH for about 3 miles? Or bring more gels?

    My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat. I start
    out my long runs with a bagel, oatmeal and tea for breakfast
    about an hour and a half before I run. Any help would be
    appreciated.

    I am 47, 5'8" 158 8% body fat.

    --
    R.Robinson
    rrockslide......Earthlink.net
     
    Tags:


  2. Bob Garrison

    Bob Garrison Guest

    "R.Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
    > Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
    > distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
    > repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
    > 8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
    > [email protected]:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
    > two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
    > (12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the
    > same incline going back @ 9:33 pace.
    >
    > I have been running for about seven years but never at
    > these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
    > just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
    > also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
    > November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
    > 1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
    > race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
    > accustomed to higher mileage?
    > 2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after
    > consuming three GU,
    24oz
    > of Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
    > something like that to give me that last UMPH for about 3
    > miles? Or bring more gels?
    >
    > My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat. I start
    > out my long
    runs
    > with a bagel, oatmeal and tea for breakfast about an hour
    > and a half
    before
    > I run. Any help would be appreciated.
    >
    > I am 47, 5'8" 158 8% body fat.
    >
    >
    > --

    Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?!
     
  3. R.Robinson

    R.Robinson Guest

    {Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?! }

    That is what I choose to do.......I enjoy pushing myself
    physically..... Looking to run ultras soon......
    UM....Because it's there...Because I do not want any
    surprises at mile 23. What's wrong with 20+ training runs?
    I just want to feel comfortable running 26.2 miles if that
    is possible.

    --
    R.Robinson
    [email protected]
     
  4. Bob Garrison

    Bob Garrison Guest

    "R.Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > {Why in the world are you doing 20+ mile training runs?! }
    >
    > That is what I choose to do.......I enjoy pushing myself
    > physically..... Looking to run ultras soon......
    > UM....Because it's there...Because I do not want any
    > surprises at mile 23. What's wrong with 20+ training runs?
    I
    > just want to feel comfortable running 26.2 miles if that
    > is possible.
    >
    > --
    > R.Robinson [email protected]
    >

    Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
    mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it might
    even be counterproductive.
     
  5. R.Robinson

    R.Robinson Guest

    { Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
    mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it might
    even be counterproductive.}

    My thoughts were on nutrition and when to accelerate my
    marathon training program.

    You see so many schools of thought on long run
    distances, 18 miles, no more than 20 miles, 25 miles, 30
    miles and I have chosen what I feel would benefit me
    most, according to my own experiences with distance. It
    just seems the more I do, the easier it gets. Plus I run
    my long runs at about a 30 second to minute per mile
    slower than my race pace. When I first started five
    miles about killed me at a 9:30 pace. Now I can run 8
    miles at 8:0 minute per mile..no problem 1. Maybe my
    school of thought is wrong and counter productive for
    someone else, but it seems to work for me. Just one
    school of thought. Training programs are like runners,
    lots of them. Tell me yours and your times, basis for
    thought and I will go from there.

    http://www.coachbenson.com/10_tips.rtf "Tip # Eight Look at
    the number of weeks left before the race. How many weeks did
    you plan to taper from your last long run before the
    marathon? If just two, please re-consider and see if you
    can't squeeze in a full three week taper. Training for as
    long as you probably have in the summer heat for the popular
    fall marathons, or in winter conditions for Boston, you
    almost assuredly will need longer to recover from the rigors
    of your dedicated training than you realize. For example,
    local runners here in Atlanta training for our Thanksgiving
    Day marathon would look at something like this: Nov 7 - last
    long run = 22 to 23 miles Nov 14 - recovery run = 13 to 15
    miles Nov 21- taper run = 7 to 9 miles Nov 26- the whole
    enchilada = 26.2 miles "

    --
    R.Robinson
    rrockslide.....earthlink.net
     
  6. Bob Garrison

    Bob Garrison Guest

    "R.Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > { Fine, enjoy yourself. Just know there is no need for 20+
    > mile runs in order to do a sub-4 hour marathon and it
    > might even be counterproductive.}
    >
    > My thoughts were on nutrition and when to accelerate
    > my marathon training program.
    >
    > You see so many schools of thought on long run
    > distances, 18 miles, no more than 20 miles, 25 miles,
    > 30 miles and I have chosen what I feel would benefit
    > me most, according to my own experiences with
    > distance.

    Ok, do your thing. George Sheehan said running is an
    experiment of one.
     
  7. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    "R.Robinson" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
    > Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
    > distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
    > repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
    > 8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
    > [email protected]:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
    > two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
    > (12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the
    > same incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

    Since the marathon is 30 weeks ago, it would be hard to
    suggest anything at this point. Most marathon training
    programs aren't longer than 24 weeks. However, you can focus
    in on reaching the starting point of some marathon program
    by working on endurance and lactate threshold workouts. It
    is a rare person that could maintain 18/25 mile weekly long
    runs for that long. I think that adding a mid-week medium
    distance run rather than going over a 2-hour run would make
    more sense. Also instaed of the weekly 800 meter repeats, do
    LT workouts such as 20 to 40 minutes at 15K to half marathon
    race pace.

    I suggest reading the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pete
    Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas. ISBN: 0736034315. It is very
    good at explaining the physiological requirements of running
    your best marathon. Half the battle of finishing a marathon
    is making it to the starting line.

    > I have been running for about seven years but never at
    > these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
    > just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
    > also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
    > November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
    > 1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
    > race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
    > accustomed to higher mileage? 2. At mile 23 I hit the
    > wall hard. This is after consuming three GU, 24oz of
    > Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
    > something like that to give me that last UMPH for about
    > 3 miles? Or bring more gels?
    >
    > My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat.

    Your daily protein requirements don't have a lot to do with
    your total caloric requirements. It is more important to
    figure your protein requirements based on your weight. There
    is growing evidence that endurance athletes may need even
    more protein than other athletes. 1.2 to 1.8 grams per
    kilogram of bodyweight is a good range for protein. At your
    current body weight of 158 pounds (72 kilograms). That would
    be 86 to 130 grams of protein per day.

    Phil M.

    --
    "Pain is temporary: the success it brings can be
    everlasting." -fortune cookie
     
  8. Dan Stumpus

    Dan Stumpus Guest

    R:

    I tried to run 27 miles a few weeks before my first marathon
    on a base of 45 miles, and hit the wall, just like you did.

    > 1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
    > race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
    > accustomed to higher mileage?

    Short answer, yes.

    Long answer: Increase your mileage when you aren't doing
    stressful runs: no speed workouts or runs over 18 miles
    while building up and getting used to mileage. Sit there for
    4-6 weeks. Then gradually introduce speed and distance runs
    starting 8-9 weeks before the race. I don't think you need
    anything over 20 miles -- I ran many good marathons (2:37 -
    2:50) with no more than a hilly 18 miler on most Sundays.

    > Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills two times a week at
    > 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles, (12.5 miles out and
    > back) with 1.5% decline going, the same incline going back
    > @ 9:33 pace.

    You're hitting the wall because that 9:33 pace is too fast
    for you during your training week. Don't worry, you'll be
    stronger when you've tapered for your race.

    If you *must* run 25 miles, slow it way down. I run ultras,
    and only occasionally go over 22 miles in a single workout
    (lots of mountains, though), and I run 80+ miles/week. Going
    longer takes too much out of me. Save it for the race.

    > 2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after
    > consuming three GU,
    24oz
    > of Gatorade during the run. Should I consume a powerbar or
    > something like that to give me that last UMPH for about 3
    > miles? Or bring more gels?

    It's pace, not so much what you eat, in this case. When you
    run through your muscle glycogen, the game is pretty much
    over. Keep eating, but slow the pace down (10:00 or
    slower), and mix it up with walking breaks. Also, I
    typically drink 3+ quarts of powerade (much better than
    Gatorade imo) on a 4 hour run. You aren't even drinking a
    quart! You're dehydrating yourself, and impairing your
    performance. Also, take a Succeed cap w/every 16 oz of
    water to keep your sodium balance optimal on these 4+ hour
    runs. When you get low on salt, the water you drink sloshes
    around and isn't absorbed.

    > My diet is strict 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat. I start
    > out my long
    runs
    > with a bagel, oatmeal and tea for breakfast about an hour
    > and a half
    before
    > I run. Any help would be appreciated.

    I'd say eat what you crave...there's lots of research that
    indicates that fat and protein are very important for
    endurance athletes. I just read a study that seemed to
    indicate more fat = more endurance! Consciously limiting fat
    is a bad idea when you're training hard, assuming no
    overriding health issues. Been there, done that, went back
    to eating what I felt like.

    -- Dan
     
  9. Rick++

    Rick++ Guest

    > I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.

    Seven months gives you a long time to prepare. Its
    recommended you build up to 20+ mile long runs over 6-12
    months, not start doing them right away. Increase the long
    run one mile at a time, e.g. five months to go from 10 to 20
    miles long run, every other week. Then your muscles and
    blood sugar systems will gradually adjust.

    Long runs are moderately helpful for a FIRST marathon, but
    dont resemble race conditions. The best preparation for a
    marathon will be to actually run one. The road surfaces, the
    crowds, the support, will differ from any training run.
    Thats why I dont recommend over-training for the first
    marathon, since the race itself will be the best learning
    experience.
     
  10. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    R.Robinson <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I am training for the Richmond marathon November 13.
    >Currently I run 40miles per week, I have been doing this
    >distance for three months now, as follows; tues-8-800meter
    >repeats @ 3:15 each Wens-3miles hills @ 8:00 per Mile Thurs-
    >8miles @7:45 per mile Friday-4miles @7:30 per mile Sat-
    >[email protected]:30 per mile Sunday-alternate.18 miles with hills
    >two times a week at 9:50 pace Sunday alternate 25 miles,
    >(12.5 miles out and back) with 1.5% decline going, the same
    >incline going back @ 9:33 pace.

    The paces/miles seem rather inconsistent with eachother,
    and with the 4 hour target time for marathon. For being a
    long way out from the marathon, and targeting 4 hours
    (9:10 pace), I'd expect something more like: Tue: 8x800 @
    3:50 each, 3:00 recovery (approx 5k pace equivalent) Wed:
    3 miles easy, 10:00 pace (i.e., _slower_ than your
    marathon pace) Thu: 8 miles, rolling hills, 10:00 pace
    Fri: 3 miles @ 8:30 pace (approx tempo pace for 4 hr
    marathon), with half mile warm up and cool down at 10:00
    Sat: 3 miles easy, 10:00 pace Sun: 'off week': Rolling 10-
    12 miles at 10:00 pace 'on week' : race condition route,
    13-18 miles, 10:30 pace

    Since this doesn't quite total your 40 miles, nudge up the
    distances through the rest of the week.

    Note that this still gives you 2 workouts a week at faster
    than race pace. Note too that if asked for a 40 mpw base
    program for a pre-marathoner, I wouldn't have 800's in
    there at all at this stage, and some other modifications.
    I was just illustrating how I'd minimally modify what
    you're already doing.

    > I have been running for about seven years but never at
    > these distances or times. This is my first marathon. I
    > just want to finish but a decent time would be nice
    > also. Say a sub 4. Just finished a form of chemo in
    > November and getting back to speed. Two questions:
    >1. I want to increase my mileage about 15 weeks before the
    > race. Is this enough time to prepare myself to become
    > accustomed to higher mileage?

    Should be, given a reasonable ramp up.

    >2. At mile 23 I hit the wall hard. This is after consuming
    > three GU, 24oz of Gatorade during the run. Should I
    > consume a powerbar or something like that to give me
    > that last UMPH for about 3 miles? Or bring more gels?

    Could be that you're starting too energy depleted. Could
    also be that those are too many GU (don't use them myself)
    or taken without enough water and they're just lying in a
    lump in your gut rather than giving you energy. For a 4
    hour goal, you're definitely running the 25 miler too
    fast, which aggravates your energy problems.

    --
    Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and
    amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
    Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
    evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
    appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
    more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
     
  11. R.Robinson

    R.Robinson Guest

    Thanks to everyone for their input. It was very helpful. I
    have been running for seven years but only at about 28 miles
    per week before. But getting up into these higher mileages
    requires more knowledge about the physical and nutritional
    aspects of running. Thanks

    --
    R.Robinson
     
Loading...
Loading...