DIY transfer parts to old steel frame questions....

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by jackchoo, Jun 22, 2008.

  1. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    Hi, since i would more than likely bin the GT frame due to a crack at the seat stay.

    I would like to move the entire Ultegra (10 Spd) groupset + shifters, brakes and wheels to a steel Saronni bike (circa mid 80s) that i just acquired.

    Appreciate some advice on the parts that are a little confusing for me....

    Crankset : Will my Ultegra fit if current bike is using a Shimano Sante set? Will the bottom bracket be the same? The Saronni has a british spec BB.
    Derailleurs : Will I need a bracket/holder or something for the rear D?
    Shifters : do i need to braze some line guide onto the steel frame for the Ultegra shifters? since the Saronni is still using tube shifters...?
    Rear wheel : I tried putting in the rear wheel with 10spd set into the 126mm spec-ed 80's bike, and it fits with just little bit effort (don't think i want to permanently bend it to 130mm...), will this be ok?

    Appreciate any thoughts. Thanks!!
     
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  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Downtube cable guides -- YES, you need them. They are readily available (they came bundled with the shifters ... the price varies from FREE to $10, depending on your relationship with your LBS).

    If you don't want to respace your frame's rear dropouts, then you really (I mean REALLY) want to respace that rear hub to 126mm (remove the 4mm spacer on the non-drive side IF it is a Shimano hub & re-dish the wheel) because ALTHOUGH you can certainly put a 130mm rear wheel in a 126mm rear on an ad hoc basis, you will find that the rear derailleur hanger probably will NOT be aligned properly ... and so, indexing MAY be a little dodgy.

    The rear dropouts on SOME frames which had 126mm spacing back-in-the-day were slightly boat-tailed so that if/when the dropouts were brought out to 130mm then the dropouts (and, rear hanger) would actually be aligned.

    Respacing the rear triangle on a steel frame is fairly easy to do -- you do NOT want to use a 2x4 or any other leverage beyond what you can provide with your bare hands! With the rear wheel removed & a hand on each rear dropout -- spread, measure, repeat.

    Aligning the rear derailleur hanger is most easily done with a PIPE WRENCH + scraps of wood (to shroud the hanger) OR using an actual derailleur alignment tool OR having your bike shop do it (call around & check first!). The hanger should be parallel to the central plane of the bicycle frame for the indexing to work optimally.

    The threading on rear derailleur hangers has been standardized for decades. If the Saronni doesn't have a hanger, then it is probably from the 60s OR someone removed it & you will need to get almost-any rear derailleur hanger that was designed for bikes from the 60s-and-70s.

    The GT used an English BB (1.37x24), so if the Saronni really has an English BB shell, then you're good-to-go ... if the cups on the Saronni are 36x24, then they are Italian threaded (right hand thread on both sides) and you will need an Italian threaded BB.

    Presumably, both bikes use 27.2 seatposts, but maybe not.

    The brake reach MAY be more on the Saronni than on the GT ... you'll just have to see.
     
  3. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    Thanks!! did not know there was a spaced that can be removed (its a shimano sealed hub). Although I am thinking if i remove the spacer from the non-drive side, won't the wheel be moved 4mm towards the non drive drop-out side? hence the wheel will not be centred in between the dropouts?

    The seat won't fit! the Saronni has 26.8/9mm while the GT is 27.2mm as you mentioned. The Saronni has a kalloy seat post which is tons heavy.....

    Another issue : will my GT carbon fork fit? Is it standard? will it work with the existing 105 headset that i have on the Saronni?

    Thanks again!
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    You are correct -- the rear wheel will NOT be centered and it needs to be RE-DISHED (re-centered on the axle) & the axle shortened ... have a bike shop with a GOOD wheelbuilding reputation do this ... you are essentially paying to have the wheel trued ... YOU could do it, of course ... but, it is really better to have the frame re-spaced.

    If the headtube length is the same on both frames, then there is a good chance that you can use your carbon fiber fork if it a 1" threaded fork (if the GT frame is actually from ~2000, then I think it may work ... if it is from 2003, then probably not because it may have a 1 1/8" threadless fork), but maybe not BECAUSE it depends on the actual vintage of your Saronni frameset, too -- if it was made AFTER 1985, then the effective length of the two forks will probably be the same & yield the same "height" of the headtube above the ground. If the Saronni was made closer to 1980-or-before, then it may-or-may not work without having a slightly forward leaning bike.
     
  5. garage sale GT

    garage sale GT New Member

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    Isn't there some way of getting cable guides on the bike without messing up the vintage paint job? I have seen basic clamp-ons, maybe they have good ones too.

    Alloy 26.8 seatposts are still plentiful.

    Just clamping in a 130mm hub into a 126mm frame will not work. the chain tension will pull the wheel out of alignment until the tire hits the left chainstay.

    Running the skewer tension higher can destroy the bearings.

    I thought about taking the spacer out of the left side too, but the more off-center the rim is (with respect to the spoke flanges), the weaker the wheel is.

    I would just tweak the dropouts gently with a padded wrench until they were parallel when the 130mm hub is loosely installed. Or, pay to have it done.
     
  6. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    The cable guides that I have seen for the down tube just attach to the shifter bosses. he shouldn't have to mess up the vintage paint job. BTW, I have seen many vintage paint jobs messed up by clamp ons, most notably clamp on water bottle holders.
     
  7. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    thanks guys.

    looks like I will seek professional help to get the dropouts spaced to 130mm...just contacted a local bike guy to do this. The Saronni currently has a Sante groupset (in extremely good condition too i might say!) So I guess fitting the Ultegra 6600 'will not be a problem' ?

    My GT is the GT ZR2.0, Its a 2001/2002 model. The Saronni is likely a 1987 Italian frame. But i do notice the headtube for the Saronni is 'slimmer' compared to the GT's.

    A friend just passed me a set of Giapemme rims (?), they look pretty solid....good rims? I hope my Ultegra casette will fit these rims!!
     
  8. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    N.B. Not all shops are can do "professional" work on frames ... so, while it may be an insult to the guy who owns the shop, ask them WHO will actually do the work & how many they have re-spaced in the past. I've seen some frames where the rear wasn't done properly (i.e., off center dropouts), but I don't know if those were a "home" jobs or done by incompetent shops ...

    SAME question for the shop owner regardomg realigning the rear derailleur hanger!

    The Saronni has a 1" steerer ... you can measure the steerer on the GT when you remove the stem. Based on what you have said, your GT's fork cannot be transferred ... if it won't fit, sell it on eBay or save it for your next frame.

    The Ultegra hubs are probably better ... your actual wheelset with the Ultegra hubs may-or-may-not be better depending on who built them. Regardless, the hub-quality doesn't matter in most conditions for most people AND consequently the Gipiemme wheels are probably fine for most people in most riding conditions. So, which wheelset you use is mostly a matter of YOUR cosmetic sensibilities (i.e., try the Gipiemme wheels and decide for yourself).

    If the Ultegra brake calipers won't reach, you can certainly continue to use the Santé brake calipers which are on the Saronni with your 10-speed group OR (if needed) buy a new set of Shimano long-reach calipers.
     
  9. garage sale GT

    garage sale GT New Member

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    But the clamp covers the minor scratches which may result. How is that worse than brazing which would entail burning a large section of paint and possibly having adverse effects on the steel?

    Also, unless the OP races, why not just ride the old stuff?
     
  10. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    I can't argue with riding the old stuff; I too am a purest and prefer my bikes to stay in their original condition. I guess the OP just wants to use his Ultegra.

    Anyway, in most cases, he will not have to braze cable guides onto the down tube. For bikes equipped with down tube shifters there are cable guides that basically replace the shift levers with no brazing required. All the OP would need to do is remove the shift levers from their bosses. Slip a cable guide assemblly onto the boss, insert and tighten up the screw. No brazing or altering of the frame is required. These cable guide assemblies have been around nearly as long a brifters so that anyone who wanted to convert their down tube shift bikes to brifters could do so with the least amount of trouble. Years ago they used to come with the brifters when you bought them new, I don't know if this is still the case.

    I personally like down tube shifters but they are not for everyone. There are some younger cyclists who probably have never ridden a bike with down tube shifters.
     
  11. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    I'm ok with downtube shifters, in fact it was all i used throughout the 80's an early 90's but was away from cycling for good decade! I bought my GT couple of years back (used) mainly because at the time I 'thought' I wanted to pick up the sport again but mainly only for exercise. I just found the GT too harsh/stiff for me. Its light and its fast but.....I can't go for more than 90mins on that kind of ride quality.

    Now with the seatstay crack, I would like to get back the old feel of steel again. At the same time, maybe just 'upgrade' the rest of the parts since I'm prob gonna bin the GT frame anyway.

    Anyone interested to purchase a really good condition Sante Group?? :) these are quite rare right?
     
  12. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    hi, I'm hoping to salvage the GT frame (get the crack fixed as best as it can be fixed), and install the 7spd Sante group and prob convert it into a cruiser of some sort with a flat bar....

    question : will the 7spd (originally on a 126mm spaced dropout steel frame) fit the 130mm on the GT frame? If not, what are the options if i want to use back the old wheel and hub..? Its a dura-ace hub from the 80's......thanks!
     
  13. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    WELL, 'I' would probably choose to simply relace the rim onto a new, SHIMANO freehub ...

    Otherwise, you will need to "borrow"/cannibalize the axle from a 130mm SHIMANO rear freehub + the 4mm spacer that is on the non-drive side (you can cannibalize a MTB hub, but then you will need to grind/cut 5mm off the axle's total length) ... and, rebuild the 7spd with the longer axle. Reassemble the cannibalized freehub with the shorter axle (to keep the parts together) as a 126mm hub. The cannibalized hub can be the LEAST EXPENSIVE one that Shimano makes ...

    Of course, after you put the longer axle on the older hub, you will want to re-dish the wheel UNLESS you choose to buy two 2mm spacers (one for each side).

    BTW. Cannibalizing an inexpensive, new-or-used hub is probably less expensive than buying the axle & spacer, separately -- I did both during a phase when I was trying to achieve a semblance of continuity/interchangeability with my wheelsets by having as many rear wheels as possible spaced to 130mm AFTER the majority of the older frames were finally respaced to match the frames which already had 130mm rear spacing!
     
  14. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    attached is the pic of the hub (its prob not a freehub or a very first gen free hub)...so if i need to change this to fit the 130mm frame

    - rebuild the existing hub with a new/cannibalized 130mm axle
    - put on 2mm spacers
    - i can still use the 7-speed cassette

    is that about it? thanks...
     
  15. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's about it ... the ONLY (?) thing you need to know is that the actual axle length will be closer to 140mm for hub intended for a 130mm spaced frame.

    So, you just need the "extra" hub-and/or-separate-parts + cone wrenches + some more light (e.g., WHITE LITHIUM) grease.

    I recommend that you work OVER a large box to catch any ball bearings which may fall out when you remove the axles, BTW.

    And, yes, you CAN still use your 7-speed cassette + most of the rest of the Sante drivetrain ... just be certain that the Saronni's BB is an English (1.37x24) rather than Italian (36x24) before you try to remove it because the driveside unthreads differently -- Italian BBs are right-hand threaded on BOTH sides.

    FYI. The first-generation Dura Ace Freehub which you appear to have was almost completely incompatible with everything that followed -- different size bearings & a freehub which could not (AFAIK) be replaced with a contemporary freehub from a newer Shimano hub ...

    However, I'm pretty sure the spline pattern will allow you to put CURRENT cogs on if you just file out ("enlarge") the indexing notch on any of the "newer" cogs (in case you want to change the stack) from another Shimano cassette ... but, maybe not.

    The ONLY (?) trick is unthreading the LAST/smallest cog which I have found to be almost impossible, at times ... you'll need two chain whips.

    The threaded DA cog is a different size than subsequent threaded cogs that Shimano used on the early, non-DA freehubs, BTW.
     
  16. jackchoo

    jackchoo New Member

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    First and foremost, thanks all for your kind comments and advice. I've learned a lot from this exercise!

    A month later, the bike is complete. I opted for a metallic pearl white job and switched over all the Ultegra parts to the Tecnotrat Saronni. Attached are some pics!

    I will be swapping out those Shimano wheels with Gipiemme 32 spoked wheel which i will be acquiring from a friend. How are these Gipiemme wheels? They do look very sturdy.

    Thanks again!!

    pics here...

    http://picasaweb.google.com/jackchooea/SaronniBikeBeforeAndAfter
     
  17. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful Bike! I'm feeling a little jealous:(! I wish someone would give me a pair of Gipiemme wheels! Nicely done all around. Congratulations on your "new" ride:)!
     
  18. PREmery

    PREmery New Member

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    smooth ride and a good job enjoy
     
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