Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?



"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> writes:

> > What does the height of the CG have to do with anything?

>
> I don't know. You might want to ask all those people that have rolled
> in their SUV's.


Oh yeah. I had forgotten that SUVs and motorcycles corner the same
way. I guess that is why they put roll bars on off road motorcycles,
which with their higher center of gravity are susceptible to rolling
just like SUVs and bicycles.
 
"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> writes:

> > What does the height of the CG have to do with anything?

>
> I don't know. You might want to ask all those people that have rolled
> in their SUV's.


Oh yeah. I had forgotten that SUVs and motorcycles corner the same
way. I guess that is why they put roll bars on off road motorcycles,
which with their higher center of gravity are susceptible to rolling
just like SUVs and bicycles.
 
Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> wrote:
>>What does the height of the CG have to do with anything?

>I don't know. You might want to ask all those people that have rolled
>in their SUV's.


What does that tell you about leaning single-track vehicles?
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
 
> What does the height of the CG have to do with anything?
>
> I don't know. You might want to ask all those people that have rolled
>in their SUV's.


Sorry, doesn't apply. Single track vehicles and cars react differently to CG.
Single tracks want the mass centralized and reasonably high. Motorcycles with
low CGs don't handle well and don't make cornering transitions well.
Phil Brown
 
Carl Fogel wrote:
>
> Here's another calculator that offers different details:
>
> http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
>
> I used 145 lbs of 67-inch Morse, 20 pounds of bicycle, and
> hands on the drops--which produced 42.2 mph.
>
> Improving your tuck to triathlon suggested 46.3 mph.
>
> A superman position raises the estimate to 53.1 mph.


Here are some inputs from a recent ride in the Eastern Sierra:

I plugged in 140-lb, 71" rider, 22-lb bike, 8000' elevation, 8%
grade, superman position (closest to a tuck), and got 60.4 mph. I've
never gone that fast, but close. On the Eastern Sierra ride, I got
up to 54 mph before sitting up to slow down.

I have a timing section that I descend regularly, with speeds
between 37-41 mph. The calculator you reference gives a speed of
36.3 mph. Pretty close. I'd attribute my higher speed to a very
tight tuck. Just wearing a jacket can slow me down by 2 mph.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
Tom Nakashima wrote:

> Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
> greater than 45 degrees.


That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
Tom Nakashima wrote:

> Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
> greater than 45 degrees.


That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
"Terry Morse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> > Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is

much
> > greater than 45 degrees.

>
> That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
> can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
> farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
> --
> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/



Sorry Terry, I can't explain it...where's the rocket scientist, but here's a
picture;

http://www.research-racing.de/mex154.jpg

Sometimes pictures tell a 1000 words.

-tom
 
"Terry Morse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> > Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is

much
> > greater than 45 degrees.

>
> That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
> can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
> farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
> --
> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/



Sorry Terry, I can't explain it...where's the rocket scientist, but here's a
picture;

http://www.research-racing.de/mex154.jpg

Sometimes pictures tell a 1000 words.

-tom
 
Terry Morse <[email protected]> writes:

> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> > Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
> > greater than 45 degrees.

>
> That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
> can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
> farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
> --
> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/


http://tinyurl.com/3v7de

looks like maybe a bit more than 45
 
Terry Morse <[email protected]> writes:

> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> > Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
> > greater than 45 degrees.

>
> That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
> can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
> farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
> --
> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/


http://tinyurl.com/3v7de

looks like maybe a bit more than 45
 
On 30 Aug 2004 11:03:35 -0700, [email protected] (dw) wrote:

>Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?


Well, the physical skills might not be particularly transferable
(chances are you won't even use the same hand to work the front
brake), but there is still a litany of important lessons you will have
learned from bicycling that will be invaluable for motorcycles:

- You'll have learned the importance of equipment selection and
maintainence and how to prioritize those expenses. If your choice of
hardare doesn't reflect that you have special, esoteric needs beyond
the scope of mere mortals, you're doomed to be regarded by your peers
as just ordinary. In cycling or motorcycling, there is no greater sin
than being breathtakingly plain. Just as you discovered with bicycles,
there's no glory attached to performing regular service with OEM
parts. Only aftermarket items that are conspicuously different from
mainstream parts have pose value, so don't bother replacing worn
chains or sprockets -- nobody'll notice that. Put that carbonfibre
exhaust cannister on instead; folks'll fawn all over you just like
when you installed a carbon crank. Just as you did with your bicycle,
you'll want to pick only the most expensive upgrade parts. Show the
world that you're willing to sacrifice for your sport: that it's okay
that your family lives on sandwiches of tunafish taken from the pet
food aisle for a while just as long as you can indulge your latest
upgrade jones.

- Dress for success. Bicycling taught you the importance of choosing
appropriate clothing and accessories. The contibutions that having the
right helmet, footwear, gloves, sunglasses and whatnot can't be
overstated lest you incur the scorn of the Fashion Fascisti that
dictates the approved styles for these items. As important as it was
that you looked like you regularly trained with LoneStar and the
Letter-Carriers, so will you now want to dress like a member of Team
Repsol on your motorcycle. Corollary to this, you'll have discovered
how vital it can be to appear to be "sponsored". Every available
square inch of your helmet and other clothing, as well as the bike
itself (frame tubes, rims, fork legs, fairing, etc.) should be
festooned with the logos of companies who've never given you the time
of day, let alone any free products.

- Naming Rights. Having the right nickname is critical in both
bicycling and motorcycling. Be careful, though. You're coming late to
this party and the good names (The Cannibal, The Badger, The Roman
Emporer, The Doctor, et al) are mostly already taken. It's possible
that you'll be saddled with "The Marmoset" or "Hedgehog". Also, your
choice of tattoos and piercings as a bicyclist may or may not help
your transition to motorcycling. "Born To Ride" probably works, but a
Presta valve core dangling from your earlobe or a 1020/A derailleur
inked on your forearm isn't really likely to ingratiate you with the
Savage Skulls.

The list goes on and on, but don't let anyone try to tell you that
bicycling hasn't prepared you for the challenges of motorcycling.
(my "other" bike -- http://www.businesscycles.com/research.htm)

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com
 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:16:08 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I try to keep an open mind, but in general it seems to me
>> that most bicyclists rarely approach the limits of traction
>> when cornering and that most of them over-estimate their
>> speeds. The same thing seems to be true of motorcyclists.
>>
>> Carl Fogel

>
>Dear Carl,
>Thanks for your motorcycle background Carl, looks like you've been through
>the mill, however, this I thought you would know with your experience with
>bicycles and motorcycles.
>As J. Brandt pointed out, the lean angle on a bicycle is about 45 degrees,
>also there is no warning when you get beyond that point in a turn, you go
>down, and you can not recover, the tires do not slip on asphalt. He also
>pointed out, most bicyclist never come close to the lean angle, or the point
>of going down on a turn.
>
>Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
>greater than 45 degrees. As I said before one could touch/drag the knee on
>the ground when cornering. Second, there is a warning, as the tires do slip
>on asphalt, completely different from a bicycle. If you doubt me, get chance
>to see Sears Point Raceway in Monterey CA. take a good look at the track
>lines in the turns after the Grand Prix Motorcycle Race...those aren't chalk
>marks.
>I've also crashed my motorcycle on Hwy 9 here in San Jose years ago testing
>lean angle, or should I say testing my handling skills as a motorcyclist.
>I had an Yamaha SR500 (single 500cc thumper) with lower European bars, Koni
>shocks, Supertrap and carb-kit. Into the turns I kept pushing the speed and
>lean angle, getting lower and lower, until the bike went out under me. At
>some points, I was dragging my knee on the asphalt, and could actually feel
>the tires slip, but was in control for the most part, and in control of the
>crash, as I just slid the bike on it's side in a 360 degree pattern. I had
>full leathers, and thought it was fun, lucky no-one was coming the other
>direction at 7:00am. I broke the clutch cable, had a bit or roadrash, and
>rode home shifting by sound after getting a roll start in 2nd gear. When I
>came to stop lights I pulled into gas stations or super markets, did circles
>and pull out when the light turned green.
>And as you know the old saying for motorcyclist (squids); "there are those
>who have gone down, and those who are going to go down.
>-tom


Dear Tom,

I'm not sure how dragging your knee on a motorcycle is a
skill developed from bicycling--possibly you've lost track
of my original point, which was that the two vehicles are
actually rather different.

In any case, I think that you are still misunderstanding how
motorcycles corner. If your tires, front and rear, were
sliding in a corner, I doubt that you were in
control--crashing and laying the machine down isn't usually
taken as evidence of control.

Most of the marks on paved motorcycle courses are from a
thin layer of soft rubber wearing off under tremendous
braking and acceleration, which is different from the tire
losing traction.

A few of the more dramatic marks on the exit come only from
the rear tire.

A motorcycle can power-slide, accelerating out of a turn,
but that's a controllable (by an expert) and completely
different matter. The spinning rear wheel has indeed lost a
good deal of traction and slipped to the outside of the
turn, but its power applied through the greatly reduced
remaining traction is used to force the motorcycle back into
the turn being followed by the front tire, which is still
holding traction quite nicely. The whole sport of speedway,
with its asymmetrical handlebars for convenient power
sliding around the oval track, is based on power sliding.

While the angle at which tires lose traction in a corner may
differ depending on the frame (and the surface), how does
the immediate result differ?

Carl Fogel
 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:16:08 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I try to keep an open mind, but in general it seems to me
>> that most bicyclists rarely approach the limits of traction
>> when cornering and that most of them over-estimate their
>> speeds. The same thing seems to be true of motorcyclists.
>>
>> Carl Fogel

>
>Dear Carl,
>Thanks for your motorcycle background Carl, looks like you've been through
>the mill, however, this I thought you would know with your experience with
>bicycles and motorcycles.
>As J. Brandt pointed out, the lean angle on a bicycle is about 45 degrees,
>also there is no warning when you get beyond that point in a turn, you go
>down, and you can not recover, the tires do not slip on asphalt. He also
>pointed out, most bicyclist never come close to the lean angle, or the point
>of going down on a turn.
>
>Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is much
>greater than 45 degrees. As I said before one could touch/drag the knee on
>the ground when cornering. Second, there is a warning, as the tires do slip
>on asphalt, completely different from a bicycle. If you doubt me, get chance
>to see Sears Point Raceway in Monterey CA. take a good look at the track
>lines in the turns after the Grand Prix Motorcycle Race...those aren't chalk
>marks.
>I've also crashed my motorcycle on Hwy 9 here in San Jose years ago testing
>lean angle, or should I say testing my handling skills as a motorcyclist.
>I had an Yamaha SR500 (single 500cc thumper) with lower European bars, Koni
>shocks, Supertrap and carb-kit. Into the turns I kept pushing the speed and
>lean angle, getting lower and lower, until the bike went out under me. At
>some points, I was dragging my knee on the asphalt, and could actually feel
>the tires slip, but was in control for the most part, and in control of the
>crash, as I just slid the bike on it's side in a 360 degree pattern. I had
>full leathers, and thought it was fun, lucky no-one was coming the other
>direction at 7:00am. I broke the clutch cable, had a bit or roadrash, and
>rode home shifting by sound after getting a roll start in 2nd gear. When I
>came to stop lights I pulled into gas stations or super markets, did circles
>and pull out when the light turned green.
>And as you know the old saying for motorcyclist (squids); "there are those
>who have gone down, and those who are going to go down.
>-tom


Dear Tom,

I'm not sure how dragging your knee on a motorcycle is a
skill developed from bicycling--possibly you've lost track
of my original point, which was that the two vehicles are
actually rather different.

In any case, I think that you are still misunderstanding how
motorcycles corner. If your tires, front and rear, were
sliding in a corner, I doubt that you were in
control--crashing and laying the machine down isn't usually
taken as evidence of control.

Most of the marks on paved motorcycle courses are from a
thin layer of soft rubber wearing off under tremendous
braking and acceleration, which is different from the tire
losing traction.

A few of the more dramatic marks on the exit come only from
the rear tire.

A motorcycle can power-slide, accelerating out of a turn,
but that's a controllable (by an expert) and completely
different matter. The spinning rear wheel has indeed lost a
good deal of traction and slipped to the outside of the
turn, but its power applied through the greatly reduced
remaining traction is used to force the motorcycle back into
the turn being followed by the front tire, which is still
holding traction quite nicely. The whole sport of speedway,
with its asymmetrical handlebars for convenient power
sliding around the oval track, is based on power sliding.

While the angle at which tires lose traction in a corner may
differ depending on the frame (and the surface), how does
the immediate result differ?

Carl Fogel
 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:02:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Terry Morse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>>
>> > Completely different on a motorcycle. First of all the lean angle is

>much
>> > greater than 45 degrees.

>>
>> That seems counter-intuitive, since that implies that a motorcycle
>> can exceed a 1-G turn. Can you explain why a motorcycle can lean
>> farther than 45 degrees in a turn?
>> --
>> terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

>
>
>Sorry Terry, I can't explain it...where's the rocket scientist, but here's a
>picture;
>
>http://www.research-racing.de/mex154.jpg
>
>Sometimes pictures tell a 1000 words.
>
>-tom


Dear Tom,

Notice the lack of skid marks in the picture. The tires are
not losing traction in this turn.

Eventually, as the soft rubber wears off, the pavement will
blacken--tracks have to be cleaned off as thousands and
thousands of dollars worth of expensive rubber coats the
turns.

If anyone gets too eager with the throttle on exit, dramatic
black lines will erupt from under the rear wheel.

If anyone corners hard enough to lose traction with the
front and rear tires, you'll see some nasty marks, straight
at first and then crazed and intermittent, where they slid
off, lost control, and either spun or even flipped.

Carl Fogel
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Dear Tom,


>I'm not sure how dragging your knee on a motorcycle is a
>skill developed from bicycling--possibly you've lost track
>of my original point, which was that the two vehicles are
>actually rather different.


it's not,
as least we agree on the motorcycle and the bicycle are
actually rather different, think the 2 year old kid across the
street can see that.

> Most of the marks on paved motorcycle courses are from a
> thin layer of soft rubber wearing off under tremendous
> braking and acceleration, which is different from the tire
> losing traction.


If you brake in the corners at great speeds on a motorcycle, you're done.
Why don't you try this? Take a corner on your motorcycle at say 40-50mph
and hit the brakes.
Guess I won't be seeing any Dear Tom post for awhile.
p.s. wear your helmet and a full set of leathers when you try this.
-tom
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Dear Tom,


>I'm not sure how dragging your knee on a motorcycle is a
>skill developed from bicycling--possibly you've lost track
>of my original point, which was that the two vehicles are
>actually rather different.


it's not,
as least we agree on the motorcycle and the bicycle are
actually rather different, think the 2 year old kid across the
street can see that.

> Most of the marks on paved motorcycle courses are from a
> thin layer of soft rubber wearing off under tremendous
> braking and acceleration, which is different from the tire
> losing traction.


If you brake in the corners at great speeds on a motorcycle, you're done.
Why don't you try this? Take a corner on your motorcycle at say 40-50mph
and hit the brakes.
Guess I won't be seeing any Dear Tom post for awhile.
p.s. wear your helmet and a full set of leathers when you try this.
-tom
 
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:34:45 -0400, John Dacey
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>The list goes on and on, but don't let anyone try to tell you that
>bicycling hasn't prepared you for the challenges of motorcycling.
>(my "other" bike -- http://www.businesscycles.com/research.htm)
>
>-------------------------------
>John Dacey
>Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
>Since 1983
>Our catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
>http://www.businesscycles.com


Dear John,

So that's what a keirin track bicycle looks like!

Carl Fogel
 
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:04:07 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>Dear Tom,

>
>>I'm not sure how dragging your knee on a motorcycle is a
>>skill developed from bicycling--possibly you've lost track
>>of my original point, which was that the two vehicles are
>>actually rather different.

>
>it's not,
>as least we agree on the motorcycle and the bicycle are
>actually rather different, think the 2 year old kid across the
>street can see that.
>
>> Most of the marks on paved motorcycle courses are from a
>> thin layer of soft rubber wearing off under tremendous
>> braking and acceleration, which is different from the tire
>> losing traction.

>
>If you brake in the corners at great speeds on a motorcycle, you're done.
>Why don't you try this? Take a corner on your motorcycle at say 40-50mph
>and hit the brakes.
>Guess I won't be seeing any Dear Tom post for awhile.
>p.s. wear your helmet and a full set of leathers when you try this.
>-tom
>


Dear Tom,

Assuming it's a worthwhile corner, you brake into it.

Otherwise, you'll be going too fast to get through it.

The soft rubber wears off under heavy braking, heavy
cornering, and heavy acceleration without the tire losing
traction.

Carl Fogel
 
Jim Smith wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/3v7de
>
> looks like maybe a bit more than 45


The bike is certainly leaning beyond 45 degrees, but I'm not
convinced it is exceeding 1 G. I drew a 45 degree line from the
contact patch:

http://bike.terrymorse.com/imgs/motorcycle.jpg

Though it's hard to say for sure, it looks like the 45-degree line
goes through the center of mass of the bike-rider combination. That
would make sense. The bike can lean more than 45 degrees because the
tires are fat, whicn moves the contact patch.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 

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