Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?



[email protected] wrote in message ...
>Why do motorcycle front tires break free just a wee bit in
>corners and remain controllable, while bicycle tires do not?
>That is, what is the difference? It has something to do with
>a "wee bit," but I'd be hard-pressed to try to explain this
>theory to an engineer. Give me some help.


As I see it, the width of the tyre allows it to creep sideways at the limits
of adhesion due to the larger width of the contact patch. Part of the patch
can be sliding whilst part is still adhering.

Trevor
 
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:05:03 +0100, "Trevor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>
>>Are you saying that the up and down motion of pedalling and
>>repeatedly exposing the cranks in profile, waving the plumes
>>of turbulence, and rapidly changing the rider's leg profile
>>has no effect on wind drag at 69 mph?

>
>No I'm saying acceleration is increased by pedaling at this speed.
>
>>
>>Have you ever stuck a hand out a car window on a highway and
>>waved it around?

>
>The drag is similar for a moving or stationary object.
>
>>
>>I see that now you're waiting like ships in port for
>>favorable winds, which was for some reason not mentioned in
>>numerous previous posts.

>
>Because mostly I didn't wait for winds. This ride was repeated possibly 20
>times per year. Not all descents were recorded. The descending speed
>always was 62mph or more when someone with a computer volunteered info or
>was questioned.. Mostly computers would max out at 64mph. When I got
>computer with cadence the speed also maxxed at this, I was able to evaluate
>speed from cadence in top gear. At 200rpm the cadence had maxxed out.
>200rpm cadence is 69mph I do not know how high I can go, I did win roller
>competitions including my first try.
>
>Trevor


Dear Trevor,

Wind drag increases markedly for an object moving up and
down or side to side relative to the airstream or for an
object changing back and forth between two shapes.

If you think a moment about a situation in which drag is
more noticeable, such as an object moving underwater, this
should be obvious.

Uphill or on the flat, bicyclists have no choice but to
pedal. The steeper the downhill, the quicker they discover
that rapid leg movement is slower than a motionless tuck.

Carl Fogel
 
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:09:52 +0100, "Trevor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>Why do motorcycle front tires break free just a wee bit in
>>corners and remain controllable, while bicycle tires do not?
>>That is, what is the difference? It has something to do with
>>a "wee bit," but I'd be hard-pressed to try to explain this
>>theory to an engineer. Give me some help.

>
>As I see it, the width of the tyre allows it to creep sideways at the limits
>of adhesion due to the larger width of the contact patch. Part of the patch
>can be sliding whilst part is still adhering.
>
>Trevor


Dear Trevor,

Sorry, but I can't see how this would occur.

Given that the limit of traction had already been reached in
order for some of the rubber to break free, what extra force
steps in to holding the remaining rubber firmly against the
ground?

Which part of the patch has breaks free to slide in the
corer while the rest of the tire adheres to the road? The
leading edge, the outside edge, the trailing edge, the
inside edge, or the center?

If some part of the tire still adhere to the road, but
another part breaks away, do the two parts rip asunder? Or
does the rubber in between them stretch?

Why would the width of a motorcycle tire's contact patch
allow this phenomenon to occur, while the width of a bicycle
tire's patch does not? Both can be measured with an ordinary
ruler.

Still baffled,

Carl Fogel
 
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:52:23 +0100, "Trevor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>
>>Now I'm truly baffled. I was assuming that you meant the
>>tiny side road off the A494 running up from Bwlch-y-parc
>>toward Moel Ethinen.
>>
>>Originally, you estimated a significant stretch of 10%
>>grade.
>>
>>Are you saying that the A494 has a 10% grade somewhere
>>around Moel Ethinen and that you were pedalling 70 mph down
>>it?
>>
>>I'm hard pressed to find a drop of a hundred meters on the
>>unfortunately crowded topo map in several kilometers on the
>>A494 around Moel Ethinen--and that stretch ends in a
>>180-degree hairpin into Llanbedr-Dyffryn-Clwd.
>>

>
>Other way 9kms. turn around, read my post, Gwernymynydd believed to be
>1:10 not steep for these parts.
>
>Trevor


Dear Trevor,

Here's Gwernymynydd with the A494 running through it:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.s...&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&dn=616

or

http://tinyurl.com/5tdz3

Is this is where you're hitting 70 mph with the help of a 15
mph tailwind and a 10% grade that is not considered steep
for paved roads in this part of Wales?

The contour lines are 10 meters and the map is 3000 meters
wide. While the map is badly cluttered, the rise from the
roundabout to the east to "PH" in the center appears to be
on the order of 60 meters in 1200, rather closer to a
5%.grade.

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:39:45 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:33:13 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>
>>>>Yes, Mark, one who understands motorcycling.
>>>>Here's another link on a motorcycle slide bike course that one can enroll
>>>>in.
>>>>http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccustom/slide.html
>>>>-tom
>>>>
>>>
>>>Dear Tom,
>>>
>>>The page seems to suggest only rear-wheel power slides
>>>exiting paved corners.
>>>
>>>The apparatus appears to be designed to prevent the
>>>motorcycle rider from falling down if he exceeds the limits
>>>of traction.
>>>
>>> Am I mistaken?
>>>
>>>Carl Fogel

>>
>>Yes Carl Fogel that is correct,
>>the lean slide bike apparatus is to keep the rider from falling down,
>>however it not only suggest power sliding the rear wheel, but the front
>>wheel also slides as well. I actually spoke with a motorcycle rider
>>(co-worker) this morning who took the Keith Code course here at SLAC, the
>>rear tire, as well as the front tire does slide in the corners with the
>>control of the throttle. The front not as much as the rear. He also said
>>your gauge for your limits of slide and lean angle is your knee touching the
>>ground. Did you also read about the paragraph about controlled slide?
>>Are you convinced now>? Maybe you should take the Keith Code course
>>yourself if you're still not convinced.
>>-tom

>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> Well, no, to be frank, I'm not convinced that racers are
> cornering so hard on pavement that their front tires lose
> traction and slide.


The word "slide" might be a bit imprecise. However, wide
tires rolling under high lateral force do exhibit what is
known as a slip angle, caused as the rubber deforms as it
rolls through the contact patch. This action of the rubber
"walking" or "squirming" laterally makes the wheel act as if
slipping sideways as it rolled.


http://www.msgroup.org/TIP076.html


> What path would a motorcycle or bicycle follow if the front
> tire began to slide sideways under hard cornering?


On a motorcycle, riders describe the feeling as "understeer"
or "oversteer" (depending on which tire is slipping more),
causing the path of the motorcycle to turn at a greater or
less radius, respectively, than the steering angle would
indicate.

The contact patch of a bicycle tire isn't large or wide
enough to exhibit any significant slip angle. Under hard
cornering, a bicycle either tracks exactly as the steering
angle requires, or the tire slides out and the rider falls.

Mark McMaster
[email protected]
 
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:34:01 GMT, Mark McMaster
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:39:45 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:33:13 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>
>>>>>Yes, Mark, one who understands motorcycling.
>>>>>Here's another link on a motorcycle slide bike course that one can enroll
>>>>>in.
>>>>>http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mccustom/slide.html
>>>>>-tom
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Tom,
>>>>
>>>>The page seems to suggest only rear-wheel power slides
>>>>exiting paved corners.
>>>>
>>>>The apparatus appears to be designed to prevent the
>>>>motorcycle rider from falling down if he exceeds the limits
>>>>of traction.
>>>>
>>>> Am I mistaken?
>>>>
>>>>Carl Fogel
>>>
>>>Yes Carl Fogel that is correct,
>>>the lean slide bike apparatus is to keep the rider from falling down,
>>>however it not only suggest power sliding the rear wheel, but the front
>>>wheel also slides as well. I actually spoke with a motorcycle rider
>>>(co-worker) this morning who took the Keith Code course here at SLAC, the
>>>rear tire, as well as the front tire does slide in the corners with the
>>>control of the throttle. The front not as much as the rear. He also said
>>>your gauge for your limits of slide and lean angle is your knee touching the
>>>ground. Did you also read about the paragraph about controlled slide?
>>>Are you convinced now>? Maybe you should take the Keith Code course
>>>yourself if you're still not convinced.
>>>-tom

>>
>>
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> Well, no, to be frank, I'm not convinced that racers are
>> cornering so hard on pavement that their front tires lose
>> traction and slide.

>
>The word "slide" might be a bit imprecise. However, wide
>tires rolling under high lateral force do exhibit what is
>known as a slip angle, caused as the rubber deforms as it
>rolls through the contact patch. This action of the rubber
>"walking" or "squirming" laterally makes the wheel act as if
>slipping sideways as it rolled.
>
>
>http://www.msgroup.org/TIP076.html
>
>
>> What path would a motorcycle or bicycle follow if the front
>> tire began to slide sideways under hard cornering?

>
>On a motorcycle, riders describe the feeling as "understeer"
>or "oversteer" (depending on which tire is slipping more),
>causing the path of the motorcycle to turn at a greater or
>less radius, respectively, than the steering angle would
>indicate.
>
>The contact patch of a bicycle tire isn't large or wide
>enough to exhibit any significant slip angle. Under hard
>cornering, a bicycle either tracks exactly as the steering
>angle requires, or the tire slides out and the rider falls.
>
>Mark McMaster
>[email protected]


Dear Mark and Tom,

I could squirm (pun intended) about which tire the page
describes as slipping more, but I think that it would be
better to say that the slip (versus slide) is close enough
to "a wee bit" to convince me that Tom has a reasonable
point and that I was wrong enough that I need to say so.

Thanks for sticking with your point, Tom.

And thanks for clearing that up, Mark.

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote in message
<[email protected]>...
>On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:52:23 +0100, "Trevor"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>Now I'm truly baffled. I was assuming that you meant the
>>>tiny side road off the A494 running up from Bwlch-y-parc
>>>toward Moel Ethinen.
>>>
>>>Originally, you estimated a significant stretch of 10%
>>>grade.
>>>
>>>Are you saying that the A494 has a 10% grade somewhere
>>>around Moel Ethinen and that you were pedalling 70 mph down
>>>it?
>>>
>>>I'm hard pressed to find a drop of a hundred meters on the
>>>unfortunately crowded topo map in several kilometers on the
>>>A494 around Moel Ethinen--and that stretch ends in a
>>>180-degree hairpin into Llanbedr-Dyffryn-Clwd.
>>>

>>
>>Other way 9kms. turn around, read my post, Gwernymynydd believed to be
>>1:10 not steep for these parts.
>>
>>Trevor

>
>Dear Trevor,
>
>Here's Gwernymynydd with the A494 running through it:
>
>http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=321500&y=362500&z=3&sv=321500,36250

0&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&dn=616
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/5tdz3
>
>Is this is where you're hitting 70 mph with the help of a 15
>mph tailwind and a 10% grade that is not considered steep
>for paved roads in this part of Wales?
>
>The contour lines are 10 meters and the map is 3000 meters
>wide. While the map is badly cluttered, the rise from the
>roundabout to the east to "PH" in the center appears to be
>on the order of 60 meters in 1200, rather closer to a
>5%.grade.
>

That'll be the bit I refer to as tapering out. The steeper section is the
1km to the west of Gwernymynydd crossroads and reading from an 1:50 000
sheet the 10m contour lines are less than 2mm apart making the grade steeper
than 1 in 10 The crossroads also contain traffic lights (mostly) ;-} I'll
try for a larger scale, I could then measure steepest grade with greatest
accuracy. What are you disputing?

Trevor
 
[email protected] wrote in message ...
>Wind drag increases markedly for an object moving up and
>down or side to side relative to the airstream or for an
>object changing back and forth between two shapes.
>
>If you think a moment about a situation in which drag is
>more noticeable, such as an object moving underwater, this
>should be obvious.
>
>Uphill or on the flat, bicyclists have no choice but to
>pedal. The steeper the downhill, the quicker they discover
>that rapid leg movement is slower than a motionless tuck.
>


How have you determined this?
How have you determined this?
How have you determined this?

It is simple to show that two riders side by side at 60mph, that the one who
pedals (presumably correctly trained) will accelerate past his companion.
This is self evident that useful force is being applied via the pedals.

Trevor
 
[email protected] wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:09:52 +0100, "Trevor"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>>Why do motorcycle front tires break free just a wee bit in
>>>corners and remain controllable, while bicycle tires do not?
>>>That is, what is the difference? It has something to do with
>>>a "wee bit," but I'd be hard-pressed to try to explain this
>>>theory to an engineer. Give me some help.

>>
>>As I see it, the width of the tyre allows it to creep sideways at the

limits
>>of adhesion due to the larger width of the contact patch. Part of the

patch
>>can be sliding whilst part is still adhering.
>>
>>Trevor

>
>Dear Trevor,
>
>Sorry, but I can't see how this would occur.
>
>Given that the limit of traction had already been reached in
>order for some of the rubber to break free, what extra force
>steps in to holding the remaining rubber firmly against the
>ground?
>
>Which part of the patch has breaks free to slide in the
>corer while the rest of the tire adheres to the road? The
>leading edge, the outside edge, the trailing edge, the
>inside edge, or the center?
>
>If some part of the tire still adhere to the road, but
>another part breaks away, do the two parts rip asunder? Or
>does the rubber in between them stretch?
>
>Why would the width of a motorcycle tire's contact patch
>allow this phenomenon to occur, while the width of a bicycle
>tire's patch does not? Both can be measured with an ordinary
>ruler.
>
>Still baffled,
>

The evidence is in the black tyre marks left on the roadway. If the amount
of rubber left on bends was indicative of the number of full on skids nobody
would finish the race. I could explain but I suggest that you hunt down a
technical book on motor cycle racing if you really want to know. This is
how I learnt what was happening and cannot recall in detail or the name of
the book.

Trevor
 
Mark McMaster wrote in message <[email protected]>...
>
>On a motorcycle, riders describe the feeling as "understeer"
>or "oversteer" (depending on which tire is slipping more),
>causing the path of the motorcycle to turn at a greater or
>less radius, respectively, than the steering angle would
>indicate.
>
>The contact patch of a bicycle tire isn't large or wide
>enough to exhibit any significant slip angle. Under hard
>cornering, a bicycle either tracks exactly as the steering
>angle requires, or the tire slides out and the rider falls.
>


Absolutely wrong. Slip angle is not the same as sliding. Slip angle is the
difference in wheel plane to the direction of travel and increases with the
height of the tyre. Hence the running on rails decription when using very
low profile tyres on a sports car. A motorcycle tyre is generally large so
would have a greater slip angle than a bicycle except its sidewalls are much
stiffer than a bicycles. Understeer and oversteer apply to angles of slip
not slide. There is no reason to assume slip angles do not exist in
bicycles. If there was no slip angle it would be like riding a solid tyre,
the steering would not self align. Technical motor cycle racing guide
required.

Trevor
 
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:09:09 +0100, "Trevor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>Wind drag increases markedly for an object moving up and
>>down or side to side relative to the airstream or for an
>>object changing back and forth between two shapes.
>>
>>If you think a moment about a situation in which drag is
>>more noticeable, such as an object moving underwater, this
>>should be obvious.
>>
>>Uphill or on the flat, bicyclists have no choice but to
>>pedal. The steeper the downhill, the quicker they discover
>>that rapid leg movement is slower than a motionless tuck.
>>

>
>How have you determined this?
>How have you determined this?
>How have you determined this?
>
>It is simple to show that two riders side by side at 60mph, that the one who
>pedals (presumably correctly trained) will accelerate past his companion.
>This is self evident that useful force is being applied via the pedals.
>
>Trevor
>


Dear Trevor,

Further down, we'll use a calculator, but let's start out by
going through the theory.

To simplify matters, consider just a crank on a riderless
bicycle with no chain.

Now add a convenient and steady magical force to cause the
bicycle to move 60 mph against the wind drag when the crank
is in its most aerodynamic postiion--horizontal and
presenting the smallest wind profile.

Remember, you have balanced the forces. Whatever magic force
is propelling our riderless bicycle, it is perfectly matched
by the rolling resistance and wind drag.

Now we add a happy gremlin inside the bottom bracket and put
him to work, busily spinning the crank at 175 rpm, which is
how fast it would have to spin to engage a 700c 2124 mm rear
wheel at 60 mph--if we hadn't removed the chain to clarify
matters.

Damn! That's hard work, spinning a crank so that each arm
rapidly changes from its best to its worst aerodynamic
profile 350 times per minute (think of one full spin and the
arm straight forward, straight down, straight backward, and
straight up).

Spinning an exposed crank produces significant wind drag at
higher speeds. Attach a pair of long, poorly designed,
leg-shaped flails to this crank and things get even worse.

Assuming feet on the pedals, the most aerodynamic position
is level, which improves the shape of both legs by bending
them back at the knee and reduces crank frontal profile to
its minimum with a nice long trailing run relative to the
windstream.

Spin the crank at 175 rpm and you're whipping up a huge
plume of invisible turbulence--which slows things down.

This is why a pilot feathers the prop if one engine dies in
flight. The blades of the prop are turned to knife into the
wind (like a level crank on a bicycle) to avoid the
tremendous drag of windmilling the unpowered prop.

Another example is an electric egg beater in the kitchen.
Unplugged, its blades do not move and it doesn't stir things
up much when moved around in wide circles. Spinning,
however, the blades produce obvious turbulence--and drag.

Some speed calculators specifically include the drag of
pedal motion, figured from rpm:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

Let's choose the triathalon bike configuration and use its
defaults, but roll it down a -10 slope (10% grade) at 0 rpm
and 0 watts, coasting.

Result: 53.3 mph coasting

Now let's do the same thing, but spin the cranks at 154 rpm
(just a hair less than the cadence for a 700c 2124 mm tire
going 53 mph with a 54 x 12) and apply a silly 0.1 watts of
power just to make the calculator work (it doesn't like a
cadence that produces no power at all).

Result: 48.8 mph spinning without applying any power

The prediction is that we lose 4.5 mph just to the increased
wind drag. Obviously, we have to put out a fair amount of
effort ot spin a crank at 154 rpm, but we haven't yet put
any force into the rear wheel. We're just demonstrating that
thrashing our legs provides aerodynamic braking.

How much power do we have to put into the rear wheel to get
back to where we started? (Ignoring the effort just to wave
our legs rapidly--that's just wasted effort.)

Let's try 345 watts at 154 rpm for the same triathalon bike
rolling down the same 10% grade.

Result: 53.3 mph spinning at 154 rpm with 345 watts

In short, this calculator predicts that a rider rolling down
a 10% grade on a triathalon bike can either coast or put out
a steady 345 watts at 154 rpm, but either way he'll be going
53.3 mph.

It gets worse at higher speeds. Here's a table for the same
bike on a 17% grade, where it reaches 70.1 mph and needs 204
rpm to engage a 2124 mm 700c tire with 54 x 12 gearing:

mph rpm watts
70.1 0 0 coasting, not pedalling
62.6 204 0.1 coasting, but pedalling w/no power
70.1 204 1046 pedalling 52 x 12 gear

If the rider enjoys pedalling on such a steep grade, the
calculator predictst hat he can either give up 7.5 mph (more
than 10% of his speed) or go just as fast as he was coasting
by producing a steady 1045 watts.

Does the calculator adjust for rpm? Let's try a huge 104 x
12 gear that requires only 102 rpm on a 17% grade:

mph rpm watts
70.1 0 0 coasting, not pedalling
66.1 102 0.1 coasting, but pedalling w/no power
70.1 102 665 pedalling 104 x 12 gear

Yes, a slower fan action produces less drag, so the bike
doesn't brake as much absolutely and doesn't require as much
power to return to its original coasting speed. (This, of
course, just shows that the algorithm does indeed adjust.)

So that's one way that I know that pedalling motion
increases wind drag. The other way is that, like any rider,
I can tuck in, coast down a long slope, and notice how my
speedometer drops when I lower my landing gear to start
pedalling again, even at speeds much lower than the examples
above.

Increasing motion means increasing turbulence. Increasing
turbulence means increasing wind drag. We can't wave big,
badly designed fans around rapidly in a 60 mph gale for
free.

Carl Fogel
 
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:02:32 +0100, "Trevor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote in message
><[email protected]>...
>>On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:52:23 +0100, "Trevor"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>[email protected] wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>Now I'm truly baffled. I was assuming that you meant the
>>>>tiny side road off the A494 running up from Bwlch-y-parc
>>>>toward Moel Ethinen.
>>>>
>>>>Originally, you estimated a significant stretch of 10%
>>>>grade.
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying that the A494 has a 10% grade somewhere
>>>>around Moel Ethinen and that you were pedalling 70 mph down
>>>>it?
>>>>
>>>>I'm hard pressed to find a drop of a hundred meters on the
>>>>unfortunately crowded topo map in several kilometers on the
>>>>A494 around Moel Ethinen--and that stretch ends in a
>>>>180-degree hairpin into Llanbedr-Dyffryn-Clwd.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Other way 9kms. turn around, read my post, Gwernymynydd believed to be
>>>1:10 not steep for these parts.
>>>
>>>Trevor

>>
>>Dear Trevor,
>>
>>Here's Gwernymynydd with the A494 running through it:
>>
>>http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=321500&y=362500&z=3&sv=321500,36250

>0&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&dn=616
>>
>>or
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/5tdz3
>>
>>Is this is where you're hitting 70 mph with the help of a 15
>>mph tailwind and a 10% grade that is not considered steep
>>for paved roads in this part of Wales?
>>
>>The contour lines are 10 meters and the map is 3000 meters
>>wide. While the map is badly cluttered, the rise from the
>>roundabout to the east to "PH" in the center appears to be
>>on the order of 60 meters in 1200, rather closer to a
>>5%.grade.
>>

>That'll be the bit I refer to as tapering out. The steeper section is the
>1km to the west of Gwernymynydd crossroads and reading from an 1:50 000
>sheet the 10m contour lines are less than 2mm apart making the grade steeper
>than 1 in 10 The crossroads also contain traffic lights (mostly) ;-} I'll
>try for a larger scale, I could then measure steepest grade with greatest
>accuracy. What are you disputing?
>
>Trevor


Dear Trevor,

There only a handful of short sections that reach 10% on the
54 roads profiled in considerable detail at this well-known
site for bicyclists interested in how steep roads are:

http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/motore2....=null&da=az&come=af&lingua=eng&commenti=False

or

http://tinyurl.com/4w7st

To be polite, Wales is not famous for long, steep descents,
and you've previously demonstrated that your judgement of 10
feet, side to side, is open to question.

If this section at Gwernymynydd turns out to be a 10% grade
of a kilometer, you should submit it to the site above. From
being unlisted, it will leap into the half-dozen steepest
road sections in Wales.

It's hard to see how something as obvious as the A494 could
have been missed, but anything can happen.

Still, the site requires some proof.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel
 
Trevor wrote:
> Mark McMaster wrote in message <[email protected]>...
>
>>On a motorcycle, riders describe the feeling as "understeer"
>>or "oversteer" (depending on which tire is slipping more),
>>causing the path of the motorcycle to turn at a greater or
>>less radius, respectively, than the steering angle would
>>indicate.
>>
>>The contact patch of a bicycle tire isn't large or wide
>>enough to exhibit any significant slip angle. Under hard
>>cornering, a bicycle either tracks exactly as the steering
>>angle requires, or the tire slides out and the rider falls.
>>

>
>
> Absolutely wrong. Slip angle is not the same as sliding. Slip angle is the
> difference in wheel plane to the direction of travel and increases with the
> height of the tyre. Hence the running on rails decription when using very
> low profile tyres on a sports car. A motorcycle tyre is generally large so
> would have a greater slip angle than a bicycle except its sidewalls are much
> stiffer than a bicycles. Understeer and oversteer apply to angles of slip
> not slide. There is no reason to assume slip angles do not exist in
> bicycles. If there was no slip angle it would be like riding a solid tyre,
> the steering would not self align. Technical motor cycle racing guide
> required.


Quite interesting. First you tell me that I'm absolutely
wrong, and then you agree with everything I said. Which is it?

Compared to a motorcycle tire, a bicycle tire is much lower,
narrower and harder (i.e. closer to the solid tire you spoke
of). Whatever slip angle exists on a bicycle tire is too
small to make any meaningful difference in cornering.

Mark McMaster
[email protected]
 
[email protected] wrote:

> No one talks about Lance's
>fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
>of the Alp d'Huez.


I dunno - I'm pretty impressed he managed to miss all those obnoxious
tourists on the way up. Then again, I guess I could say the same
about the motorcyclists (coincidentally most of them ride the same
bike I do) who were pacing the racers. Then again again, maybe they
don't HAVE to miss the tourists (after all, the mirrors pop off if
they hit someone).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] wrote:

> No one talks about Lance's
>fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
>of the Alp d'Huez.


I dunno - I'm pretty impressed he managed to miss all those obnoxious
tourists on the way up. Then again, I guess I could say the same
about the motorcyclists (coincidentally most of them ride the same
bike I do) who were pacing the racers. Then again again, maybe they
don't HAVE to miss the tourists (after all, the mirrors pop off if
they hit someone).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] wrote:

>A superman position raises the estimate to 53.1 mph.


The thought of riding down ANY hill at that speed in the superman
position boggles the mind. One with curves... shudder...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"Hugh Fenton" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Did no-one else plug a 12 degree (1 in 8) downslope into the calculator with
>the White Hawk recumbent option (speed record holder?) To go 168 MPH
>(270kph) seems a LITTLE dangerous!


Just out of curiosity - does anyone know what the equivalent speed
rating of a typical road bicycle tire is? What kind of problems might
you expect from using a "normal" bike tire at that kind of speed?

I'm assuming there is a correlation between the need for special
construction in automobile tires and those on a "bicycle" designed to
go more than 3x the legal speed limit in New Jersey. If the issue is
strictly one relating to heat, there would be less time to build the
heat, but much less mass (meaning they'd hit the maxmium temperature
quicker).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] (g.daniels) wrote:

>before i am visciuosly attacked for this curiosity allow me to say
>that when i did ride a real dirt bike, i dissappeared sideways in the
>gravel over the hill at 80.


I did that once too. The bike was a total loss.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
[email protected] (g.daniels) wrote:

>before i am visciuosly attacked for this curiosity allow me to say
>that when i did ride a real dirt bike, i dissappeared sideways in the
>gravel over the hill at 80.


I did that once too. The bike was a total loss.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>No one talks about Lance's
>>fantastic cornering skill in his lightning ascent at 16 mph
>>of the Alp d'Huez.

>
>
> I dunno - I'm pretty impressed he managed to miss all those obnoxious
> tourists on the way up. Then again, I guess I could say the same
> about the motorcyclists (coincidentally most of them ride the same
> bike I do) who were pacing the racers. Then again again, maybe they
> don't HAVE to miss the tourists (after all, the mirrors pop off if
> they hit someone).


Lance had some bar ends purchased from Sheldon Brown on his bike to
assist getting through the spectators.
<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lirpa.html#bayonetz>.

--
Tom Sherman
 

Similar threads