Do we hate cars?

[astroluc]

I love cars, things with wheels, shiny things, things that go fast.

It's people that generally annoy me.

simple... to the point... I totally agree.

My Si and My R700 =
Traffic and pedestrians =

I hate walking when I am the one walking... waste of time; mankind invented wheels for a reason. I would rather deal w/ 1000 bikes than 1000 pedestrians.

 

[meehs]

Like I said the people who make claims like these always seem to be the worst drivers. Just making a generalization like you did in your original post.


On a different note, why did I know the tree huggers would come around telling everybody what to do in this thread. *yawn*

Why is it that as soon as someone expresses concern with the fact that we as human beings are slowly destroying the environment they get labeled as "tree huggers" or some such (stupid) thing. Anyway, I guess I'd rather be labeled a tree hugger than be perceived as a moron going around professing that we should just say screw the environment and continue to pollute and consume at the rate we currently are.

 

[artmichalek]

It's not the cars I hate so much as the cab drivers.

On a different note, why did I know the tree huggers would come around telling everybody what to do in this thread. *yawn*

Didn't you just say it was stupid to lump people into stereotyped categories?

 

[kayakboy32]

I love cars. I have a 1989 Saab 900 that was the perfect car to learn to drive in. 16 valves 5 speeds. with all the back roads you learn the art of balance. I picked up the bike once the novelty of driving wore off, and the need to get an adrenaline fix with out risking other peoples lives, as well as my own. But Helga (my car) has many issues and I now see how much easier it is just to bike around.

 

[MountainPro]

But Helga (my car) has many issues and I now see how much easier it is just to bike around.

christ on a bike,

for one awful minute there i thought you had named your car, and not only that, you named it Helga!!

 

[House]

Big difference between discussing the environment and trying to tell people what kind of vehicle they need and why they are bad people because of what they drive. I guess it's hard to understand when you are the one doing it.

 

[(((((0)))))]

Big difference between discussing the environment and trying to tell people what kind of vehicle they need and why they are bad people because of what they drive. I guess it's hard to understand when you are the one doing it.

I suppose we could all buy a Prius. Or has anyone considered how those massive batteries will pollute once they have to be discarded?!

I like to drive, always have....own two cars. Both Swedish. Both moderately efficient for Turbos. Yet, the free market dictates that car makers are able to sell inefficient behemoths. But then aren't the people who are coughing up their 2nd mortgage for a year's supply of gas going to get wise?

I love to bike, but it is not the answer for my traveling and commuting needs. Oh and the Green Party can kiss my ass, thanks to Nader, we have GW in the White House. Think About it.

 

[artmichalek]

I suppose we could all buy a Prius. Or has anyone considered how those massive batteries will pollute once they have to be discarded?!

It's even worse than you think. I read an article a few weeks ago (NY Times I think) that gave the real cost break down on hybrids. To make up for the high initial cost and low projected trade in value of a Prius, gas would have to average $9.50 a gallon over the next five years. Even for something like the Ford Escape, gas would have to average close to $5 for the hybrid version to cost less than the standard one. Biodiesel on the other hand is well on it's way to being a viable option.

 

[tcklyde]

I don't hate cars, I just wish they'd stay off the roads.

 

[playswithtrains]

Cars are fine, it's more often the drivers I object to.

 

[Ryanotokyo]

Gave up smoking in '94, and gave up driving in 97.

In retrospect, there are many similarities between these experiences. When you're doing it, you think you can't live without it - maybe even convince yourself that it enriches your life experience. But when you stop, you realise what you were missing.

 

[Induray]

Gave up smoking in '94, and gave up driving in 97.

In retrospect, there are many similarities between these experiences. When you're doing it, you think you can't live without it - maybe even convince yourself that it enriches your life experience. But when you stop, you realise what you were missing.

Where you from that allows you to stop driving? Here in Fla. is an necessity. Mass transportation is almost non-existent. Even sidewalks are an uncommon treat! Most neighborhoods nowadays do not incorporate sidewalks in many streets. Actually you have to walk on the road!!! In my neigborhood for instance, the main roads only have one sided sidewalks. If you cross the street to go to a store. You'll end up walking on the road or near to it to avoid muddy trails. I used to commute by bike, but then they moved me to where I am 20 miles away by interstate road and bridges that do not allow bicycles. For me to get around safely now, it would take me approx 40 miles of backroads...one way! And still I am taking high risks in some areas.

 

[Ryanotokyo]

It's even worse than you think. I read an article a few weeks ago (NY Times I think) that gave the real cost break down on hybrids. To make up for the high initial cost and low projected trade in value of a Prius, gas would have to average $9.50 a gallon over the next five years. Even for something like the Ford Escape, gas would have to average close to $5 for the hybrid version to cost less than the standard one. Biodiesel on the other hand is well on it's way to being a viable option.

It gets worse. Think of where they get the electricity to power the hybrid cars. Then think of the energy it takes to make the cars, for the lifespan of each car - totally pathetic. It's an environmental disaster no matter which way you look at it - just marginally less worse than combustion engine vehicles.

The real fundamental flaw with cars is that, environmental issues aside, cars are just not safe at speed. You could be a perfect driver, and then one day whammo, someone front-end's you and kills you both. Train accidents attract a lot of media attention when they happen (which is rarely), but it is cars that really kill, slowly, steadily, and reliably on a daily basis. And don't forget - for every road death, there are hundreds of injuries, and maybe thousands of near misses.

Cars are the ultimate zero-sum game. Great (for you) if you are the only one who has one, but public enemy number one if everyone has one. I really enjoy trying to imagine how a car-free city would work. It's not impossible - think Venice. I would love to speak with someone who works in a hospital emergency ward in Venice. I wonder what they do to pass the time! Imagine comparing it to the emergency ward in a similar sized hospital in any city in the US. I bet you the contrast would be stark.

 

[Ryanotokyo]

Where you from that allows you to stop driving? Here in Fla. is an necessity. Mass transportation is almost non-existent. Even sidewalks are an uncommon treat! Most neighborhoods nowadays do not incorporate sidewalks in many streets. Actually you have to walk on the road!!! In my neigborhood for instance, the main roads only have one sided sidewalks. If you cross the street to go to a store. You'll end up walking on the road or near to it to avoid muddy trails. I used to commute by bike, but then they moved me to where I am 20 miles away by interstate road and bridges that do not allow bicycles. For me to get around safely now, it would take me approx 40 miles of backroads...one way! And still I am taking high risks in some areas.

Interesting you should say that. You know, when you think about it, sidewalks are really only there for the benefit of cars. They want to go fast, and they don't want anyone in their way - if they do, they are fair game. An idea that is beginning to gain currency in many places is that roads should be made WITHOUT sidewalks, and the speed of the MV traffic kept right down. That way drivers have no excuse but to be careful.

If you are afraid of the cars on faster roads (with good reason) I suggest you get a good blackburn mirror that sticks out the side of your handlebars. It tends to keep drivers a little further away. Danlite is great at night too. Another trick that's a bit goofy, but seems to work when traveling along roads with really fast motor traffic, is the flag sticking out of a pannier trick - tilted slightly roadside. Looks a bit goofy, but hey it works.

The point is, it doesn't matter where you live - it's more of a lifestyle choice. But next time I move house, I will never buy anywhere too far out in the 'burbs.

 

[Induray]

It gets worse. Think of where they get the electricity to power the hybrid cars. Then think of the energy it takes to make the cars, and the lifespan of each car. It's an environmental disaster no matter which way you look at it - just marginally less worse than combustion engine vehicles.

I think you are confused with hybrid technology. Electricity is generated by the gas engine itself. The gas engine charges the battery allowing part of the cruising distance beng powered by the elecrical motor. It appears to be more efficient and less polluting. However , I do agree that if you add maintenance to the cost equation, a hybrid might cost more than to operate a pure gas engine vehicle per mile. Of course the carmakers will try to sell it by its "gas saving" abilities.
I do not think it will take any more energy to produce a hybrid than conventional gas car. It pretty much uses the same manufacturing technology. Batteries are recycleable just the same as your car batteries. This is where technology needs a lot of improvement though and is a significant cost driver for the operator.
If resale value is low (low projected trade in value) then it makes sense to wait and buy it used! (I am) This will lower significantly initial cost thus lowering your total life cycle costs.

 

[Induray]

Interesting you should say that. You know, when you think about it, sidewalks are really only there for the benefit of cars. They want to go fast, and they don't want anyone in their way - if they do, they are fair game. An idea that is beginning to gain currency in many places is that roads should be made WITHOUT sidewalks, and the speed of the MV traffic kept right down. That way drivers have no excuse but to be careful.

If you are afraid of the cars on faster roads (with good reason) I suggest you get a good blackburn mirror that sticks out the side of your handlebars. It tends to keep drivers a little further away. Danlite is great at night too. Another trick that's a bit goofy, but seems to work when traveling along roads with really fast motor traffic, is the flag sticking out of a pannier trick - tilted slightly roadside. Looks a bit goofy, but hey it works.

The point is, it doesn't matter where you live - it's more of a lifestyle choice. But next time I move house, I will never buy anywhere too far out in the 'burbs.

Nah....I will not share the road as a pedestrian. I have a 4 yr old and that to me would be too risky. I require a healthy separation between me and my family and 2+ tons of steel. And ,no offense, but whoever told you that the reason they are not building sidewalks because it teaches driver to drive more conservatively, was selling you a bag of bull manure! It is cost driven, the city does not want to pay for it! Besides, who would want to be the first batch guinea pigs to get mauled by cars before car drivers, perhaps, start getting it????!

 

[Ryanotokyo]

I think you are confused with hybrid technology. Electricity is generated by the gas engine itself. The gas engine charges the battery allowing part of the cruising distance beng powered by the elecrical motor. It appears to be more efficient and less polluting. However , I do agree that if you add maintenance to the cost equation, a hybrid might cost more than to operate a pure gas engine vehicle per mile. Of course the carmakers will try to sell it by its "gas saving" abilities.
I do not think it will take any more energy to produce a hybrid than conventional gas car. It pretty much uses the same manufacturing technology. Batteries are recycleable just the same as your car batteries. This is where technology needs a lot of improvement though and is a significant cost driver for the operator.
If resale value is low (low projected trade in value) then it makes sense to wait and buy it used! (I am) This will lower significantly initial cost thus lowering your total life cycle costs.

- where does the gas come from? Unless I am mistaken extracting gas is often done in high coal burning facilities.
- Batteries are recycleable, tyres are recycleable, and so is the metal frame of the car, but think of the energy that goes into that process also, let alone the energy to make the thing in the first place.
- "more efficient" and "less polluting" are relative descriptions.
- this whole discussion ignores the fact that cars promote urban sprawl, which results in massive energy consumption compared to the higher density cities that are possible (and infinitely more enjoyable) without cars and the roadspace they need.

Hybrids are a complete bum steer feel good grope for survival by the car manufacturers. They are going to have to come up with something better than that to avoid going under.

 

[Ryanotokyo]

Nah....I will not share the road as a pedestrian. I have a 4 yr old and that to me would be too risky. I require a healthy separation between me and my family and 2+ tons of steel. And ,no offense, but whoever told you that the reason they are not building sidewalks because it teaches driver to drive more conservatively, was selling you a bag of bull manure! It is cost driven, the city does not want to pay for it! Besides, who would want to be the first batch guinea pigs to get mauled by cars before car drivers, perhaps, start getting it????!

Don't know where you live, but there are plenty of roads like this where I live. I also have young children, and we don't have much problem. Maybe it will take a while for drivers to learn that they don't own the road, but here they are generally very patient, and always quite slow.

Separation is more of a mirage than real safety. A few months ago I saw a dump truck cut across the footpath and take out a tree that must have been over a foot thick.

 

[Induray]

Don't know where you live, but there are plenty of roads like this where I live. I also have young children, and we don't have much problem. Maybe it will take a while for drivers to learn that they don't own the road, but here they are generally very patient, and always quite slow.

Separation is more of a mirage than real safety. A few months ago I saw a dump truck cut across the footpath and take out a tree that must have been over a foot thick.

On your previous post. (we are having a time delayed posting), OH! I thought you were comparing conventional gas car vs. hybrids. We it is true that no cars would be enviromentally better, but realistically it would be an economic nightmare. Alternatives are better than the usual ...and far more doable.

You are lucky that you can do that in your area. Don't know where it is...but if you can walk to anywhere and or ride safely that sounds nice.Florida,on the other hand, its sprawled.. that is reality. I live in Jacksonville considered one of the biggest cities not by population but by area covered. Only an efficient mass transportation would help. I hear you that developers should (and they are in some parts) develop more concentrated urban areas where commute is reduced, but this will affect a few only. I still prefer the option of walking on a walkway as far away fm car as possible, specialy on main thoroughfares. Can I still get killed by a car run amock? You bet, but at least I can reduce the chance of getting hit by somebody that oversteer/understeered just enough or miscalculated distance just enough. (My bet is that it happens more than cars running amock). Ever had a close call with a car side view mirror while riding??? I have, not fun.

 

[artmichalek]

I live in Jacksonville considered one of the biggest cities not by population but by area covered. Only an efficient mass transportation would help.

I was down there for a conference about a year ago. My hotel was only about a mile from the conference site (right at the waterfront), and I had to take a cab every day because you can't get across the river on foot. Eight dollars each way for a distance I could have walked in 15 minutes.