Do you count the gear when you ride?

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


People spend money on devices that indicate their cadence, heart rate, even power output. That would suggest that "feel" is not a reliable indicator.

I'm not saying that I can feel the gear I am in. I can't to any degree of accuracy unless I control all other variables, e.g. wind, slope, road surface. I'm saying that knowing the gear I am in is somewhat useless. What matters is picking a gear that results in a cadence that feels good. Whether measuring cadence with a monitor is useful or not is a different subject. The only useful thing I can think of for gear measurement is a rough estimate of speed if you don't have any other means to measure it; and actually maybe that is what the original poster is using it for.

 

[vspa]

in the old days people trained by gear and kilometers, like: then: 60 kilometers on 42x15 ___ 80's and 90's= 2 hours recovery ride at 70% HR__ today= L2 on your powermeter then: 120 kilometers on 52x17___80's and 90's= 3 1/2 hours endurance and tempo 80% HR__ today = L3 powermeter and so on for the training you do on your living area you can always gauge your performance by looking the gears you are in because you know the circuit, you can also chat with your peers in terms of gears for a club ride, it can give you an idea of your fitness compared to their fitness, you can also build a good image of your pedalling technique by looking at your years also, like saying ok i am better at spinning 90rpm instead of 85rpm or 95rpm, so this or that gear serve me better, and so on... its a good piece of information i think,

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by vspa .

in the old days people trained by gear and kilometers, like:
then: 60 kilometers on 42x15 ___ 80's and 90's= 2 hours recovery ride at 70% HR__ today= L2 on your powermeter
then: 120 kilometers on 52x17___80's and 90's= 3 1/2 hours endurance and tempo 80% HR__ today = L3 powermeter
and so on
for the training you do on your living area you can always gauge your performance by looking the gears you are in because you know the circuit,
you can also chat with your peers in terms of gears for a club ride, it can give you an idea of your fitness compared to their fitness,
you can also build a good image of your pedalling technique by looking at your years also, like saying ok i am better at spinning 90rpm instead of 85rpm or 95rpm, so this or that gear serve me better,
and so on... its a good piece of information i think,

Agree with all of the above.

I'm old school. For training we picked a gear - 42x16 and then pedalled at a cadence at say 85rpm for 3 hours.
We'd also have a sprinting session where we'd use say 52x13 and sprint at a cadence at whatever rate one could manage.

For what it's worth, I try to pedal 42x15 at 90+rpm for three hours allows me to cycle 60-odd miles or 100-odd kilometres.

 

[oscacom]

When you take a lot of time riding a bike you move through feelings. Always go looking for your convenience.

 

[dominikk85]

BTW how do you shift when you approach a slight gradual uphill?

I often have the problem that I shift onto the large cog with the large chainring and then when I have to shift down I have to spin like crazy for some second because I'm on the small chainring and have to shift down the cogs a little. should I go to the smaller chainring earlier?

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

BTW how do you shift when you approach a slight gradual uphill?

I often have the problem that I shift onto the large cog with the large chainring and then when I have to shift down I have to spin like crazy for some second because I'm on the small chainring and have to shift down the cogs a little. should I go to the smaller chainring earlier?

The short answer is always maintain as much speed as possible approaching the climb. Learn how to shift both at roughly same time. When I had a Shimano setup, it was one click for the front (dropping to the small ring), then 3 clicks on the right (dropping to smaller cogs). Eventually you will get pretty good at being able to find approx the same gear in the small chainring quickly. The new Campy 11 allows a simoultaneous double dump. It is obviously not possible to downshift the rear if you are already hammering to the base of the climb in something like a 53/14 or 15. In those cases try riding the big ring as far as cogs in the rear will allow, then go for the double shift above when you start to run out of big cogs on the rear. Shifting is as much art as science. Sometimes one can only ride the next gear 10-20 yards (maybe just a couple seconds) before having to shift again... doing that is still better than immediately shifting to the small chainring and loosing all that precious momentum.

Riding the big ring over smaller rollers and 'slight' hills, and not fretting about the minute or so spent in big/big, is the best way to go provided it's an appropriate gear for your fitness imo. There's a bunch of nervous nellies who really overblow the whole big/big thing. It was much more of an issue in the old days with lower tolerance machining and mismatched drivetrain parts. Didn't have the pleasure of owning an old 5spd friction downtube shifting bike? Just watch one of these old cycling vids on Youtube and listen to how LOUD those drivetrains were. You can practically hear them wearing down. These days a dirty chain is more detrimental to drivetrain wear than running big/big...

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by gudujarlson .

I don't understand how a gear indicator could help someone determine what is the best gear to be in. The best gear is the gear that feels best. An indicator can't tell you that.

Yes.

 

[oscacom]

Originally Posted by danfoz .


Yes.

+2

 

[CAMPYBOB]

I look back to avoid the large/large cross-chaining and when going warp speed in the bunch just to see how much damage I'm doing to myself.

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]"Riding the big ring over smaller rollers and 'slight' hills, and not fretting about the minute or so spent in big/big, is the best way to go provided it's an appropriate gear for your fitness imo."[/COLOR]

In the middle of mid-race crisis...yeah, I do it. Screw the wear, I'm in survival mode and grabbing ANY gear that works.

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]"There's a bunch of nervous nellies who really overblow the whole big/big thing. It was much more of an issue in the old days with lower tolerance machining and mismatched drivetrain parts."[/COLOR]

Just call me, "Nel"!

The new XX-speed components are thinner, lighter and less stout than the old 5-speed counterparts. And I'm killing chains and cassette gears at a pretty good clip, as is. I try and keep it out of the large/large unless I'm killed and out of the next largest gear unless the need is serious. I actually enjoy sweeping those levers and pounding the buttons on that Campy. The more firm the actuation, the better it seems to make the shift.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

In the middle of mid-race crisis...yeah, I do it. Screw the wear, I'm in survival mode and grabbing ANY gear that works.

You can say that again. A while back I picked up a new chain and had the fellas at my shop swap it out. First ride out I had some skipping big/big when the chain was under duress. Later that day I got home and after all the derailleur fiddling my patience could handle something told me to take off the chain and measure against the old... 2 links shorter. The next day I went back to my shop and the mechanic said "Dude, dontcha know big/big is bad for your chain". I told him he could race my next race to which he responded "I'll add the links". Problemo solved. Now that I'm riding Campy which is a little more $$ I may pay more attention. But heck that's what all those super duper coatings and anodizings are for.

Does anyone remember the days when going for a black Sedis chain could save 4 bucks over the $10 silver version? Avoiding big/big coulda saved me a whole $6 a year.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by danfoz .p

Does anyone remember the days when going for a black Sedis chain could save 4 bucks over the $10 silver version? Avoiding big/big coulda saved me a whole $6 a year.

Yeah, I remember those days. Silver Sedis chains were my favorite.

Regarding chain length, I've been suspicious that some manufacturers are cutting chains short to cut cost. This is especially apparent on SRAM equipped Trek Madones and Speed Concepts. They shift into big-big, but it's tight and it doesn't feel happy, and after a few shifts it seems like I'm always applying a little English with the hanger alignment tool. I've temporarily solved that on my own bike by using a smaller cassette, but when I start exploring in the spring I'll use a longer chain with the 11-28 cassette.

I use big-big for brief spurts, and I believe it's preferable to have a chain that's slappy or rattly in the combinations you should avoid to one that might cause damage if you shift into the "wrong" gear.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"Does anyone remember the days when going for a black Sedis chain could save 4 bucks over the $10 silver version?"

I started out on black Sedis, but I switched within a year or two to gold ('oro") Regina chains. Frankly, with the wide 5-speed freewheels, I found chain all brands of chains ran equally well. With a Record derailleur and friction levers on the downtube, shift quality was in the hands of the rider.

What did a black Sedis cost? Something like $5 IIRC. Campy 11-speed Chorus chains are $55-$60! I got an entire season out of those Sedis and Regina 5-speeds. Now...THREE chains a season.

Oh yeah...yesterday afternoon I only looked back to see if I was in the 15 or 16 rolling across a flat stretch of valley floor.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .

What did a black Sedis cost? Something like $5 IIRC. Campy 11-speed Chorus chains are $55-$60! I got an entire season out of those Sedis and Regina 5-speeds. Now...THREE chains a season.

Maybe adopting a round pedaling stroke would help minimize wear? I wonder what the cross-chain delta is on an 11spd cassette vs. a 5spd freewheel. Seems like a lot more 'cross', but three chains a season... jeez.

Btw for all the noobs, I don't advocate you go out and ride a century in big/big, no matter how well maintained your chain. And no I don't advocate anyone adopts a round pedaling syle or whatever you wanna call it either. Just go out and ride yer damn bike.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"Maybe adopting a round pedaling stroke would help minimize wear?"

Heheh! I started out with the classic French long-stroke and ankling. Did the Lemond...did the Fit Kit Rad...did the crit-sit...now the low-pro. Weird, starting out on 61CM bikes and ending up on a true 56! That foot-long post and 130 stem sure look ultra-modern though!

"I wonder what the cross-chain delta is on an 11spd cassette vs. a 5spd freewheel."

5 gears spaced at 5.3 MM = 26.5 MM freewheel spread.
11 gears spaced at 3.85 MM = 42.35 MM cassette spread.
If the chainstay length were the same as a typical 1972 road racing bike (I think rear ends are typically shorter by 5-10 MM), wear and stress at the extremes would certainly increase.

I do watch the drivelines of my team mates and training partners that cross-chain in front of me. It looks...nasty. Just looking straight down on a stationary bike that has been shifted into the large/large shows a significant angle. How much additional stress it puts on the chain or how much (if any) additional wear it promotes? No clue, but I would venture it is both measurable and significant.

"Seems like a lot more 'cross', but three chains a season... jeez."

After being chided for using 85-140 hypoid gear oil (synthetic and really high quality stuff), I've temporarily switched back to bike shop ripoff snake oil. In this case, Finish Line 'Wet'. I have used it in the past and it is nothing special as far as lubricants go. Looking at the .75% wear gage (oh yeah, I forgot to tell you...the Park gage is fubar, too, according to web experts!) I'm about 1000 miles into chain number 3 for this season and it's getting close to cooked. Might need chain number 4 before January 1st, 2013. And yeah, they are usually spotless for the weekend events and lubed more heavily than a locomotive's crankcase...throwing oil so badly my rear brake squeals and stopping distances get longer!

Crying at the chain costs is bad enough, but toss in the requisite $180-$250 cassette stack every year and driveline maintenance costs are nuts! Yeah...I'm betting the $8/bottle snake oil does nothing more than up the bottom line...$8. Oddly, I got FIVE full seasons out of my 53 ring before the teeth looked trashed. Even then, it still ran just fine.

"Btw for all the noobs, I don't advocate you go out and ride a century in big/big, no matter how well maintained your chain. And no I don't advocate anyone adopts a round pedaling syle or whatever you wanna call it either. Just go out and ride yer damn bike."

Damned straight! I'll keep buying chains and with dying legs grab whatever gear keeps me on the back of the bunch!

BRB...need to fire up the CAD system.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Using an assumed chainring spacing, a 40 CM horizontal chainstay dimension, centered chainline and some quick guesstimation:

The large/large on an old 5-speed setup could clock a 2.28° angle.

An 11-speed can attain 3.31° of angle. 30% change. If I haven't screwed the pooch somewhere in that fast calc.

Of course, prototype factory and unofficial TWELVE-SPEED setups are in the works!

http://www.campafreak.com/shifting_technology/Campy_12_speed/page28.html

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .


Of course, prototype factory and unofficial TWELVE-SPEED setups are in the works!

http://www.campafreak.com/shifting_technology/Campy_12_speed/page28.html

Scary. I'd always said I'd convert to 11-speed when they figured out how to make cogs in half-sizes. Well, now that I'm 60 and reading about how we were so over-geared with our puny 7-speed freewheels, I'm beginning to see the value of adding one more big cog on the other end.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]"Well, now that I'm 60 and reading about how we were so over-geared with our puny 7-speed freewheels, I'm beginning to see the value of adding one more big cog on the other end."[/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Damned straight![/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]I remember going to 10-speeds in 2006 and adding a 23.[/COLOR]
[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Last fall I went to 11-speeds and added a 25![/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]I'm 59 and hoping that for my 60th Campy will intro 12-speeds so my old legs can get a 27 without having to lose an intermediate gear. And no...I will NOT give up my d-hill bombing 11 tooth! No way! Never![/COLOR]

How the hell did I ever get over these hills on that PY-10 with a 47-53 and 14-21 5-speed?!?! Ah...to be 18 again!

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .


How the hell did I ever get over these hills on that PY-10 with a 47-53 and 14-21 5-speed?!?! Ah...to be 18 again!

Haha! One of my early iterations wasn't much better: 42-52/14-18 5-spd.

That gearing got me 2nd at Bear Mountain at the age of 15 on a 25lb bike. How the fark did we do it!? I did the same climb last year in a 39/23 and thought I was gonna die.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Old age...it ain't for the weak. Or those still running corncob blocks thru the hills!

Remember when the first thing you sized up on a new rider was his freewheel? He could be riding a gaspipe Raleigh Gran Prix with steel Rigida rims, a 3-piece cottered steel crank and using a mix of rusty Huret and cracked Simplex plastic...but by God if was on a straight block, you knew you were going to hurt!

 

[oldbobcat]

For one thing, I wasn't riding with the equivalent of a 20-lb backpack around my middle.