Do you feel the difference?

[helloo2u]

I have worked at a bike shop for 2 years and have worked on and ridden all of the 06 shimano groups heres what i have found.
sora-absolute ****, not worth riding
tiagra-intended for touring and commuting would do much else with it
105-entry level racing, it works fine, but the brakes are only ok and the shifting isnt always sure.
Ultegra-the slightly stiffer heavyer version of dura ace
Dura ace-whats on my personal bike, because when im sprinting for the finish at 30+mph, I sure as hell do not want my gears to slip, and when someone attacks and i need to shift, i need to shift at that exact moment, without any hesitation, dura ace IS miles ahead of 105 in this regard. But unless you are very competitive, its not that big of a deal. But keep in mind if it is badly set up or maintained dura ace is no better than sora.

 

[Phill P]

Pitting is a fatigue failure, not "micro welds".

Reducing the number of failure modes does not increase part life because it only takes one failure mode for a part to fail.

Your cones are more likely to pit with Si3N4 balls because they are harder, indent the races more, and cause more fatigue.

I would be surprised to learn that a factory wheelset from a reputable maker came with ceramic balls which were the same size as a comparable steel bearing.

2nd statement is quite right. However bearings tend to wear from a combination of failure modes effecting each other with a cumlative effect on each other.

I dissagree with your first and second statements.
Steel balls tend to "cut a groove" in the races as well as ceramic. You can see where the contact has been between the balls and races, and that is why cup and cone bearings have adjustment to keep things tight. Once the ball is supported by the race I doubt the wear would accelerate any faster with ceramic than steel.
Could you explain why you thing pittink is a fatigue failure? Remember steel has a fatigue limit and the low loads in a bearing would surely stay well under steels fatigue limit. I'm sure people out there have seen the lumpy and pitted surfaces of a well worn out ball from where material from the races has been deposited.

Campy are now offering a ceramic bearng upgrade for record hubs in 07. The ceramic balls I have access to come in steps of 1/32 of an inch. You could not fit a 6/32" ball into a campy hub which is designed for 5/32", and there is no other size to make a tiny adjustment like you are suggesting.

have a look at these links from ceramic speed (who supply FSA)
http://www.ceramicspeed.com/benefits.htm
http://www.ceramicspeed.com/bicycle_examples.htm

 

[bobbyOCR]

I have worked at a bike shop for 2 years and have worked on and ridden all of the 06 shimano groups heres what i have found.
sora-absolute ****, not worth riding
tiagra-intended for touring and commuting would do much else with it
105-entry level racing, it works fine, but the brakes are only ok and the shifting isnt always sure.
Ultegra-the slightly stiffer heavyer version of dura ace
Dura ace-whats on my personal bike, because when im sprinting for the finish at 30+mph, I sure as hell do not want my gears to slip, and when someone attacks and i need to shift, i need to shift at that exact moment, without any hesitation, dura ace IS miles ahead of 105 in this regard. But unless you are very competitive, its not that big of a deal. But keep in mind if it is badly set up or maintained dura ace is no better than sora.

You are quite wrong. No groupset will slip gears unless there is a tension/detensioning of the cable which pulls the derailleur. A correctly adjusted groupset (any one) will not slip gears. A flexy frame can change the tension of cable, making you slip gears, and many other things. But if it is properly adjusted, it will not slip.

I worked at an LBS too. If a bike had sora, I put all my effort into getting it to shift perfectly, and it did. On the rare DA, it was just as fiddly to get it to shift perfectly. In my expeerience, DA is harder to keep adjusted. I don't know why, but there are more clunky DA bikes than clunky 105/ultegra bikes.

 

[sogood]

You are quite wrong. No groupset will slip gears unless there is a tension/detensioning of the cable which pulls the derailleur. A correctly adjusted groupset (any one) will not slip gears. A flexy frame can change the tension of cable, making you slip gears, and many other things. But if it is properly adjusted, it will not slip.

What about the situation of worn chains and cogs? Doesn't that also cause slips?

 

[mikesbytes]

I'm little in the first place and the new bike meant 5 lbs less to me. When you only weigh 103 lbs this is huge. I certainly have noticed the difference.

103lbs/48kg what a feather weight. How tall are you Eden?

I've always thought that there was a bit too much focus on weight, but I see your point. Say your/my bike weighed 10kg/22lbs including toolkit, accessories and water. That would mean that total weight would be 135lbs/58kg and for me it would by 78kg + 10kg = 194lbs/88kg. So for me the bike would make up 11% of the total weight, where for you it would make up a wopping 17% of the total weight. Now subtract the 5lbs/2kg and we end up (excuse rounding) with 130lbs/56kg for you and 189lbs/86kg. So for me the bike would make up 9% of the total weight and for you it would make up 14% of the total weight. So, simply based on weight percentages, the 5lbs/2kg reduction provides you 50% more benifit than it does to me.

Anyway enough of the boring maths stuff. Someone with better bean counting skills will shortly stop the holes and correct me down to 4 decimal places.

Eden, perhaps rather than spending $$$ on light bike parts, you could spend the $$$ on some protein to strenghten up those legs, particully after your hill cimbing. he he.

 

[bobbyOCR]

What about the situation of worn chains and cogs? Doesn't that also cause slips?

Oh, duh, of course. If they were worn I'd replace them on a bike being serviced anyway. Speaking of chains I just got my ultra-bling chain, a KMC X10SL Gold chain. It is the easiest way to pimp yo bike.

 

[garage sale GT]

Could you explain why you thing pittink is a fatigue failure?

The fact that pitting of ball bearings and races is a fatigue failure is very well settled.

 

[Eden]

103lbs/48kg what a feather weight. How tall are you Eden?

I've always thought that there was a bit too much focus on weight, but I see your point. Say your/my bike weighed 10kg/22lbs including toolkit, accessories and water. That would mean that total weight would be 135lbs/58kg and for me it would by 78kg + 10kg = 194lbs/88kg. So for me the bike would make up 11% of the total weight, where for you it would make up a wopping 17% of the total weight. Now subtract the 5lbs/2kg and we end up (excuse rounding) with 130lbs/56kg for you and 189lbs/86kg. So for me the bike would make up 9% of the total weight and for you it would make up 14% of the total weight. So, simply based on weight percentages, the 5lbs/2kg reduction provides you 50% more benifit than it does to me.

Anyway enough of the boring maths stuff. Someone with better bean counting skills will shortly stop the holes and correct me down to 4 decimal places.

Eden, perhaps rather than spending $$$ on light bike parts, you could spend the $$$ on some protein to strenghten up those legs, particully after your hill cimbing. he he.

I'm only 5' tall - and yes I'm completely done growing. I've been this size for the last 20 years. It is a great advantage to me for hill climbs. The longer the climb the better it is for me. Plus I race. That 5lbs off my bike meant about 5min off my time at my favorite hill climb, which when combined with the fitness gains I've made this year meant 12 min off my time and 3rd place
I just got myself a coach - and though protein powders aren't in the program, leg strengthening exercises are.
One big problem for folks my size is that there are so few bikes that fit that the choices are entry level or completely tricked out with little inbetween. It's getting better, this coming year (2007) there are many more manufacturers offering small/women's bikes, but last model year almost nothing. I bought myself a Specialized Ruby this summer - sweet bike, and for a full DA bike very, very reasonably priced.

 

[sogood]

I've always thought that there was a bit too much focus on weight, but I see your point. Say your/my bike weighed 10kg/22lbs including toolkit, accessories and water. That would mean that total weight would be 135lbs/58kg and for me it would by 78kg + 10kg = 194lbs/88kg. So for me the bike would make up 11% of the total weight, where for you it would make up a wopping 17% of the total weight. Now subtract the 5lbs/2kg and we end up (excuse rounding) with 130lbs/56kg for you and 189lbs/86kg. So for me the bike would make up 9% of the total weight and for you it would make up 14% of the total weight. So, simply based on weight percentages, the 5lbs/2kg reduction provides you 50% more benifit than it does to me.

Eden, perhaps rather than spending $$$ on light bike parts, you could spend the $$$ on some protein to strenghten up those legs, particully after your hill cimbing. he he.

Mike, your advice worries me. Are you suggesting that Eden should go MacDonalds and upsize herself over time so that the bike's weight would be less significant wrt the BW?

 

[ryanspeer]

Eden, perhaps rather than spending $$$ on light bike parts, you could spend the $$$ on some protein to strenghten up those legs, particully after your hill cimbing. he he.

Watch yer words there buddy. Having ridden with Eden and her husband before, I can assure you she has no problem whatsoever making it up the hills in a hurry (or in finishing with spectacular results at the end of the racing season).

 

[ryanspeer]

Back to the original Dura-Ace related question (sort of) . . .

Although I, like any lust-ridden cyclist would love to have a bike completely blinged-out with top of the line components in every category, I'd have a REALLY hard time justifying the extra $600 or so for a Dura-Ace setup considering the only moderate weight savings. Considering that the price difference between Dura-Ace and Ultegra would be better spent in my particular situation on uber-nice wheels, and perhaps a race worthy lightweight bars and stem or tires, or even on a quality cycling coach, in my particular situation it wouldn't make sense. For a rider dedicated to racing at the top of his or her category (and with the financial wherewithall to make it happen), then going all-out on components and such makes far more sense.

For me, the weight savings between Ultegra and Dura-Ace aren't worth it. Ultegra 10-speed performs beautifully for me (and there's even a very very large difference between the Ultegra 10-speed and 9-speed systems on both of my bikes), and until I get to the point where the extra cost/weight savings of Dura-Ace are worth it, I'm sure Ultegra will perform beautifully for me. I have no aspirations of going on the European pro tour or anything and so in all reality, Ultegra is likely even MORE than I'll need for a good long time.

 

[benkoostra]

I have an "06 105 equipped bike. It shifts very well, and is silent. It's a very good group, despite it's less than elegant marquee.

Frankly, I cast a suspicious eye at LBS employees who laud D/A but also get it at cost. I can't even remember the number of times I've silently glided past or been passed by a noisy D/A bike. What's the point if it's out of tune?

The fact is a light frame and wheels built up around a 105 group will still be competitive and work well IF it's maintained.

 

[Phill P]

The fact that pitting of ball bearings and races is a fatigue failure is very well settled.

I've been looking around the web to look into fatigue failure in bearings. The flaking of the surface cuased by subsurface cracking looks very similar to what I've been talking about, but generally only happens to the races. It was suggested that fatigue cracks propergate from surface or subsurface stress concentrations.
It is possible this form of failure could be slightly accelerated by the stiffer ceramic balls. Because the roundness of the ball would elastically deform less under load and not flatten out out as much would mean a slightly smaller load area.
However shimano uses 3/16" balls (6/32) and 1/4" (8/32), where as campy uses 5/32", and this is far far smaller that 1/4" and hence would have a far smaller contact patch. Similar effect with the 3/16" with smaller load area. The smaller bearings usually are used in greater numbers, so loads are distributed more. Shimano uses 56x3/16" in 7800 hubs, campy 60x5/32". I don't think the 1 extra ball per bearings would compensate for the change in load area.


So I accept that ceramic balls can increase the chance of subsurface fatigue cracking. But the fact that the balls are of higher tolerance and remain in far better condition than steel balls result in much better performance that far out lasts steel ball bearings.

 

[bobbyOCR]

I have an "06 105 equipped bike. It shifts very well, and is silent. It's a very good group, despite it's less than elegant marquee.

Frankly, I cast a suspicious eye at LBS employees who laud D/A but also get it at cost. I can't even remember the number of times I've silently glided past or been passed by a noisy D/A bike. What's the point if it's out of tune?

The fact is a light frame and wheels built up around a 105 group will still be competitive and work well IF it's maintained.

Just as I mentioned before, there are more mis-adjusted DA bikes than any other groupset in our group. You can always tell if someone has it by the clicking and scraping of their chain. It is so easily fixed too.

 

[mikesbytes]

I'm only 5' tall - and yes I'm completely done growing. I've been this size for the last 20 years. It is a great advantage to me for hill climbs. The longer the climb the better it is for me. Plus I race. That 5lbs off my bike meant about 5min off my time at my favorite hill climb, which when combined with the fitness gains I've made this year meant 12 min off my time and 3rd place
I just got myself a coach - and though protein powders aren't in the program, leg strengthening exercises are.
One big problem for folks my size is that there are so few bikes that fit that the choices are entry level or completely tricked out with little inbetween. It's getting better, this coming year (2007) there are many more manufacturers offering small/women's bikes, but last model year almost nothing. I bought myself a Specialized Ruby this summer - sweet bike, and for a full DA bike very, very reasonably priced.

5' = 152.4cm (I'd almost forgot the maths) you didn't look that small in your photo and btw, it wasn't as cute as the one I posted. You must get a great slip stream off the hubbie. Haven't seen her, but theres a really small Asian girl that rides a 650c in Sydney, the guys tell me its a waste of time drafting her, you can't feel the difference.

BTW, you got rid of the Brits in 1776 or something, when are you going to get rid of their measuring system. Event the Brits have got rid of it. From what I gather the US has gone metric for the space industry and drug deals. Mind you we Aussies are still guilty of using PSI instead of Bar.

Just joking about the diet, your so light, you could get away with a bit more muscle. Nah wasn't saying protien powder (unless your a vego), just some real food, like half a chicken at dinner time. I did my PB for 200mtr standing track sprint straight after eating a monster dinner, so the extra weight didn't matter. I'm a cross trainer and I need to recover my muslces as quickly as possible between disiplines, so protein is important to repair the damage.

Enjoy the new bike.

 

[mikesbytes]

Mike, your advice worries me. Are you suggesting that Eden should go MacDonalds and upsize herself over time so that the bike's weight would be less significant wrt the BW?

Hi Weiyum, I tell you next time I ride RNP with sideshow_bob I'm going to need to pick up about 4 bacon and egg mcmuffins on the way thru so at least I die with a full stomach.

There are some girls out there who have amazing leg strength, not just on bicycles, but theres one at the gym who can lunge almost as much weight as me in high rep sets, she also does spin classes. I've tried to encourage her to come for one of our training rides, but shes not interested. Do you go to the gym? Why don't you come with me one Monday morning and you can see her in action.

To answer the threads origional question, I don't think I'll feel the difference of 600gms, where a lighter rider like Eden certainly does. Its been interesting analysing how machinery improvements make more difference for one over another and cracking a few jokes along the way, even if a few took the jokes seriously.

Good luck with the Gong ride on Sunday,

Cheers Michael.

 

[mikesbytes]

Watch yer words there buddy. Having ridden with Eden and her husband before, I can assure you she has no problem whatsoever making it up the hills in a hurry (or in finishing with spectacular results at the end of the racing season).

Yeh some of these girls born since they landed on the moon have got attitude. Sounds like Eden as attitude for altitude. When I was 15 I remember burning off the New Zealand womans cross country running champion in a cross country race. I bet a 15 year old boy couldn't do that now days.

 

[Eden]

To answer the threads origional question, I don't think I'll feel the difference of 600gms, where a lighter rider like Eden certainly does. Its been interesting analysing how machinery improvements make more difference for one over another and cracking a few jokes along the way, even if a few took the jokes seriously.

No worries here - since I haven't taken any offense no one else should. And don't fret about my protein intake. Even without following the typical American diet I get plenty of protein. Mostly soy and dairy, but some meat too.(but no big macs thanks!)

 

[sogood]

Hi Weiyum, I tell you next time I ride RNP with sideshow_bob I'm going to need to pick up about 4 bacon and egg mcmuffins on the way thru so at least I die with a full stomach.

Good luck with the Gong ride on Sunday,

Thanks, should be brilliant as long as the weather holds up.

Yes, I have seen girls who can really ride too. I have a long way to go...

In the meantime, a bit more climbing practice is in order.

 

[Bigbananabike]

Since when is there a ceramic bearing in Ultegra? That would put the cost up about $80 or more for the deraileur.

If you had 105 9 speed, yeah its ****. The 10 speed design has unanimously been voted a quantum leap from 9 speed.

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I'm very happy with my 105 and Ultegra 9 speed rear derailleurs . I've read in the forums how fussy the 10 speeds are by comparison .