Do you guys commute in the winter?



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"Michel Gagnon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> There is a catch: you either have to buy spokes ($20) and build your wheel or ask Peter White (or
> your local builder) to build the wheel.

I expect that not a lot of people want to build their own wheels.

> VISIBILITY FROM OTHERS

Very true. The MR-11's are too small the MR-16's are better, and the sealed beams (Malibu) are even
better. I use the Malibu sealed beams. They are very inexpensive, and while the beam is not as
focused as I'd like (more like a flood pattern than a spot), it's great for being seen, and good for
seeing. They look kind of wierd on a bike, but I don't care. I could over-voltage them by 20%, using
12 AA NiMH cells per light, and have a lightweight ,dual beam, NiMH system for $50 or so, since I
already have a suitable charger.

> VISIBILITY OF THE ROAD The success of a good generator headlight is that the headlight uses good
> optics, as opposed to shear power. This is why a 3 W Lumotec is as effective for on-street
> lighting than an 8 W MR-11 spot (approx.: IOW, a 10 W spot is slightly brighter).

Yes, the MR-11 leaves a lot to be desired. But the MR16 is more reasonable. One advantage of the
MR16 is the wide variety of beam patterns. While the Lumotec beam pattern is available in spot only,
the MR16 lamps are available from 9.5 to 38 degrees. With the MR16 it's practical to have two
lights, one spot, one flood, aimed as needed. The Lumotec is still more efficient, but a 10W MR16 is
still better than a 3W Lumotec. Yes, extra power is used to overcome the less efficient optics.

> AUTONOMY Try to find a battery-based headlight that is good for a 5- or 6-hour trip at -10 C and
> doesn't weight a ton.

Can't argue with that! I guess you have to keep the batteries next to your body. But this thread is
about commuting, and I doubt if anyone's bicycle commute is more than a couple of hours, and most
are not even an hour.
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:21:28 +0100, Jens Kr. Kirkebø <[email protected]> from wrote:

>On 8 Dec 2003 09:38:42 -0800, [email protected] (Michel Gagnon) wrote:
>
>>AUTONOMY Try to find a battery-based headlight that is good for a 5- or 6-hour trip at -10 C and
>>doesn't weight a ton.
>
>Niterider Flamethrower.
>
>Unless you consider 2.1lbs a "ton".
>
>http://www.beyondbikes.com/bb/ba/asp/ic.AC-LIG-Flamethr/ab/Itemdesc.htm

No, but 470 bucks is a ton of money to pay for a fancified flashlight.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
hubub, hubub, HUBUB, hubub, hubub, hubub, HUBUB, hubub, hubub, hubub.
 
> > VISIBILITY FROM OTHERS
>
I think most newbie commuters overcomplicate lighting requirements by buying expensive lights,
hopefully to be light king of the road where they would light themselves up like a christmas tree.
What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and use other
people's lights to light you up.

Another effective way to be visible from others is use LED blinkers. They are effective on the
road in clear and rainy weather. Only at the extreme end of the weather where a marine strobe
would be needed. But by that time, who would have the right mind to commute in a snow blizzard
with ice on the road?

>
> > VISIBILITY OF THE ROAD The success of a good generator headlight is that the headlight uses good
> > optics, as opposed to shear power. This is why a 3 W Lumotec is as effective for on-street
> > lighting than an 8 W MR-11 spot (approx.: IOW, a 10 W spot is slightly brighter).

People forget about bulb life. The success of a good generator headlight is not only good optics,
but to replace light bulbs often that are near or pass their life span. If you commute on a yearly
basis, riding nites for most of the year, you need to replace the bulb at least once a year. So when
did you replace yours??

Most generator lights have a decent light yield coverage. Some are better than others, but I think
the point is, people want to ride super fast and see well too with generator lights. I say
rechargeable lights are best suited for this task better than a SON+Lumotec combo. For most
commuting purposes, you will get used to whatever lights you've got. I know some people supplement
generator lights with at least a 3 LED light to provide some wide beam coverage. Nothing wrong with
that I can see.
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:40:10 -0600, Kevan Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>>AUTONOMY Try to find a battery-based headlight that is good for a 5- or 6-hour trip at -10 C and
>>>doesn't weight a ton.
>>
>>Niterider Flamethrower.
>>
>>Unless you consider 2.1lbs a "ton".
>>
>>http://www.beyondbikes.com/bb/ba/asp/ic.AC-LIG-Flamethr/ab/Itemdesc.htm
>
>No, but 470 bucks is a ton of money to pay for a fancified flashlight.

Nobody said anything about price. BTW, I love my Niterider Blowtorch, wouldn't trade it for anything
but a Flamethrower :)
 
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:44:19 -0800, Zoot Katz <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The Shimano Nexus is a less expensive alternative to the SON though it's twice the cost of your
>Sanden. It could be a reasonable compromise on a commuter or city bike.

Or a tourer. The Nexus is pretty damn good IME. I have the Nexus on my tourer and the SON on my
bent. The SON is better, no question, there is nothing wrong with the Nexus. Hub dynamos are a
class act.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:46:42 +0100, Jens Kr. Kirkebø <[email protected]> from wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:40:10 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>AUTONOMY Try to find a battery-based headlight that is good for a 5- or 6-hour trip at -10 C and
>>>>doesn't weight a ton.
>>>
>>>Niterider Flamethrower.
>>>
>>>Unless you consider 2.1lbs a "ton".
>>>
>>>http://www.beyondbikes.com/bb/ba/asp/ic.AC-LIG-Flamethr/ab/Itemdesc.htm
>>
>>No, but 470 bucks is a ton of money to pay for a fancified flashlight.
>
>Nobody said anything about price. BTW, I love my Niterider Blowtorch, wouldn't trade it for
>anything but a Flamethrower :)

Do you work for the company or the retailer?

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
I'm ZIPPY the PINHEAD and I'm totally committed to the festive mode.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Zoot Katz
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:17:15 GMT, <101220031517146668%[email protected]>,
> David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I've done research and comparison with my friends' SON dyno by switching his wheel (700c) to my
> > touring bike. The price difference of $39.95 US to $370 is not worth the cost just for commuting
> > only. I only see the advantage of the SON for randos who must ride more than 100km/h at night
> > and need less resistance from the hub.
>
> Bottle generators do an excellent job of providing a reliable light source under most conditions.
> IMO, for commuting and touring they're a simpler solution and better value than any battery lamp.
>
> Their drawback being slippage when it's wet and thereby becoming somewhat less reliable. Living on
> the wet coast, this matters to me.
>

I live in the wet coast too and noticed very little noticeable slippage with the Sanden. I can't say
the same for older bottle generators that run off the sidewall or thread of tires.

> The Shimano Nexus is a less expensive alternative to the SON though it's twice the cost of your
> Sanden. It could be a reasonable compromise on a commuter or city bike.
>

I think for the occassional commuter or a city bike, a rim generator light is probably more than
enough for the task. All you need to supplement this is a red blink for the rear and a white blinker
(Planet Bike LED) for the front, so people can see you when you stop at the light.

I have these on my tour/commuting bike.

> I like the fact that it's quiet and doesn't slip.

I like the idea of SON, but I just don't have the money to justify this rather luxury toy.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Bernie
<[email protected]> wrote:

> David wrote:
>
> >What about generator light sets made in Japan?? These are not el-cheapo junk. In fact, they are
> >very reliable and millions of Japanese ride them. Sanden and Sanyo are the 2 I know of. In fact,
> >I own a Sanden TAK1NSK 3W 6V generator light that puts out just as much light as the $370 SON
> >Dyno. There's a little bit more resistance than the SON, so I figure I loose an effective speed
> >of just 1km/h. I've done research and comparison with my friends' SON dyno by switching his wheel
> >(700c) to my touring bike. The price difference of $39.95 US to $370 is not worth the cost just
> >for commuting only. I only see the advantage of the SON for randos who must ride more than
> >100km/h at night and need less resistance from the hub. I've done weeks of touring with these
> >light and it had saved me many times navigating to the campsite at night.
> >
> >I got the light from www.bikelite.com. The guy who sells the lights is very knowledgable.
> >
> I want one of these. Does anyone in Canada, especially British Columbia sell them? Bernie
>

I tried asking around in BC and nobody seem to be interested in importing these. Your best bet is
with bikelite.com and he's an all around nice guy. He used to work for Sharp corporation, so he
knows Japanese stuff very well. Shipping is fast too and the use of USPS ensures that you won't get
dinged by obscene UPS brokerage charges.

David.
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:30:14 GMT, David
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I like the idea of SON, but I just don't have the money to justify this rather luxury toy.

A SON is absolutely not a toy. It is markedly better than the Nexus, probably even good enough to
warrant being nearly three times the price. I commute all year round, and riding at night on unlit
roads on a recumbent bike places certain demands on your lighting system. My SON exceeds
expectations. I have it wired to two lights in series, as documented here and there, to gove me a
12V lighting system with enough power to see and be seen at speed on the open road.

It would be an expensive luxury for a weekend tourer but on a year-round commuter bike in this
Northern latitude the SON unquestionably earns its keep and I would endorse it without hesitation.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
David <[email protected]> wrote:

> What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and use other
> people's lights to light you up.

I promote both, for commuting.

Reflectors work well for long colinear sightlines, but not so well for proximal transverse
interactions. i.e., a LIncoln Navigator coming up on a crossing intersection 40 feet away.

Another way of describing reflectors' fundamental shortcoming is that they only really work the best
when you're squarely between the headlights of a car.

Also, the beam power of reflectors is two or three orders of magnitude, or so, less than
active lighting.

.max

--
the part of <[email protected]> was played by maxwell monningh 8-p
 
David wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>David wrote:
>>
>>>What about generator light sets made in Japan?? These are not el-cheapo junk. In fact, they are
>>>very reliable and millions of Japanese ride them. Sanden and Sanyo are the 2 I know of. In fact,
>>>I own a Sanden TAK1NSK 3W 6V generator light that puts out just as much light as the $370 SON
>>>Dyno. There's a little bit more resistance than the SON, so I figure I loose an effective speed
>>>of just 1km/h. I've done research and comparison with my friends' SON dyno by switching his wheel
>>>(700c) to my touring bike. The price difference of $39.95 US to $370 is not worth the cost just
>>>for commuting only. I only see the advantage of the SON for randos who must ride more than
>>>100km/h at night and need less resistance from the hub. I've done weeks of touring with these
>>>light and it had saved me many times navigating to the campsite at night.
>>>
>>>I got the light from www.bikelite.com. The guy who sells the lights is very knowledgable.
>>>
>>I want one of these. Does anyone in Canada, especially British Columbia sell them? Bernie
>>
>
>I tried asking around in BC and nobody seem to be interested in importing these. Your best bet is
>with bikelite.com and he's an all around nice guy. He used to work for Sharp corporation, so he
>knows Japanese stuff very well. Shipping is fast too and the use of USPS ensures that you won't get
>dinged by obscene UPS brokerage charges.
>
>David.
>
That's the reaction I got too David. Thanks for sharing your experience
- and thanks for the good advice! Bernie
 
Max wrote:

>David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and use other
>>people's lights to light you up.
>>
>
>I promote both, for commuting.
>
>Reflectors work well for long colinear sightlines, but not so well for proximal transverse
>interactions. i.e., a LIncoln Navigator coming up on a crossing intersection 40 feet away.
>
>Another way of describing reflectors' fundamental shortcoming is that they only really work the
>best when you're squarely between the headlights of a car.
>
>Also, the beam power of reflectors is two or three orders of magnitude, or so, less than active
>lighting.
>
>.max
>
There's another reflector that hasn't been mentioned in this thread. Reflective sidewalls. I think
in future any tire I buy will have to have reflective sidewalls. They flash a distinct hoop at the
motorist, instantly defining the thing crossing in front as a bike.

I got mine by accident. Needing a new rear tire, and determined to get something better than the
lame cheapo tire my LBS put on the last time, I asked him to order a Cheng Shin nylon tire, which
was the original equipment tire on my Marin hybrid. It's a cheapo too, but they wear well. Anyway,
when I picked it up, it had the reflective sidewall. I heard reflective tires are mandatory in
Germany, but don't know for sure. Reflective sidewalls do give some protection against cross traffic
though. Best regards, Bernie
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:55:02 -0600, Kevan Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Nobody said anything about price. BTW, I love my Niterider Blowtorch, wouldn't trade it for
>>anything but a Flamethrower :)
>
>Do you work for the company or the retailer?

Sorry, no. I live in Norway and had to special-order the light as no shops I checked had even sold
one before.
 
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:43:56 GMT, David
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I think most newbie commuters overcomplicate lighting requirements by buying expensive lights,
>hopefully to be light king of the road where they would light themselves up like a christmas tree.
>What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and use other
>people's lights to light you up.

And doesn't always work very well. Like cars pulling out from a side-street in front of you, they
don't see you coming from the side if you only have reflectors, and probably not if you have a
small led blinker too. If you have a HID light lighting up the whole road before them you can be
sure they notice though. Same goes for people backing out of their driveway, crossing the bikelane
or multi-use path.

>Another effective way to be visible from others is use LED blinkers. They are effective on the road
>in clear and rainy weather. Only at the extreme end of the weather where a marine strobe would be
>needed. But by that time, who would have the right mind to commute in a snow blizzard with ice on
>the road?

Me, if I want to get to work. I'll walk beside my bike if I have to, but the studded tires usually
work well. Only thing that makes me walk is _lots_ of snow, slung onto the bike-path from the plows
on the main road. That stuff is _hard_ to ride through.

BTW, a good LED rear light can work in even extreme weather. The one I use now has 16 ultra-bright
red LEDs and comsumes 3W in steady-mode which I use (blinking rear lights are not technically
allowed here, though never enforced).

>People forget about bulb life. The success of a good generator headlight is not only good optics,
>but to replace light bulbs often that are near or pass their life span. If you commute on a yearly
>basis, riding nites for most of the year, you need to replace the bulb at least once a year. So
>when did you replace yours??

Once a year ? If i'm not incorrect, the HID bulb should last 1000 hours and not be noticeably dimmer
at the end of it's life. I commute 1 hour daily, half the year in the dark. That's a little over 100
hours a year + pleasure rides. Let's say 150 hours, that gives me 6-7 years of bulb life.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
you know? <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:30:14 GMT, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I like the idea of SON, but I just don't have the money to justify this rather luxury toy.
>
> A SON is absolutely not a toy. It is markedly better than the Nexus, probably even good enough to
> warrant being nearly three times the price. I commute all year round, and riding at night on unlit
> roads on a recumbent bike places certain demands on your lighting system. My SON exceeds
> expectations. I have it wired to two lights in series, as documented here and there, to gove me a
> 12V lighting system with enough power to see and be seen at speed on the open road.
>
> It would be an expensive luxury for a weekend tourer but on a year-round commuter bike in this
> Northern latitude the SON unquestionably earns its keep and I would endorse it without hesitation.
>
> Guy

I also commute year round as well and ride at night on unlit roads and the fact that, unlit roads,
not trails, place *less demand* on your lighting system. The SON and other generator lighting system
would work well in this application. Generator lights don't illuminate as well on lit roads, where
the low power light has to compete with more powerful ambient street and surrounding lights.

As I recall, the SON hub is rated for 6v 3watts. I don't think you can get a 12 volt system by
stringing 2 lights together, since the hub only provides up to 6 volts of voltage. What you will get
is a combined light output of up to 6 watts in a series circuit. In a series circuit, current stays
the same and only voltage is halved equally on both circuits (assuming equal resistance = same light
bulbs) in a series circuit. The downside to this is a bit more drag , since you need to travel more
than 10mph or 16 km/h (for us metric guys) to really show its effective use. The dual lights are
useful for fast descent where you can easily exceed the minimum 10mph, but for long steep hill
climbs, you are then stuck with just 1 light as the hub won't spin fast enough to generate enough
power to light up 2 lights. Unless ofcourse, people can climb any steep hill at more than 10mph!

My solution to climbing hills with dyno lights is to supplement it with another light. My other
light is a Cat Eye HL-500II halogen for most fair weather or a NiteHawk 20W Single Pro for the worst
weather (fog or snow blizzard). I plan on switching the Cat Eye to a Planet Bike 3 LED version for
longer run time. LED light is cheap to operate as well.

David.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Jens Kr.
Kirkebø <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:43:56 GMT, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I think most newbie commuters overcomplicate lighting requirements by buying expensive lights,
> >hopefully to be light king of the road where they would light themselves up like a christmas
> >tree. What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and
> >use other people's lights to light you up.
>
> And doesn't always work very well. Like cars pulling out from a side-street in front of you, they
> don't see you coming from the side if you only have reflectors, and probably not if you have a
> small led blinker too. If you have a HID light lighting up the whole road before them you can be
> sure they notice though. Same goes for people backing out of their driveway, crossing the bikelane
> or multi-use path.
>

And only cyclists get hit by cars backing out of their driveway.. What about joggers or walkers
that go out at night? I see plenty of them on my bike route and only about 30% have any sort of
blinkers strapped to their arms. And yet, we don't hear joggers being mowed down by people
backing out of their drive ways. The only time we heard of joggers being mowed down by motorists
was that, the drivers were drunk while driving. Also, the guy who mowed down the infamous Ken
Kifer was also drunk.

Also, bright lights from your bike can temporarily blind a motorist coming from the opposite lane.
This is simply because, our pupil's diaphragm open up more in the absence of bright ambient light.
By shining bright light to on coming traffic, you are making yourself unseen by them. Most motorists
will flash their beam to tell you that you are blinding them, but cyclists with HID or super bright
lights thought it was working when in fact, their stupidity act means that they run more risk of
being hit by opposite traffic who can't ascertain the location of the cyclist. All they see is just
a huge ball of light. There's no brains in doing that. In fact, this situation is made worse in the
rain where water droplets on the car's windshield and windows act as little prism reflectors. Your
bright HID light will not only blind on coming motorists, but also shift your actual bike position
in relation to the road.

What you need at night are bright LED blinkers. The Planet Bike SPOT white LED blinker has shown to
be very effective in alerting motorists at night of your presence.

> >People forget about bulb life. The success of a good generator headlight is not only good optics,
> >but to replace light bulbs often that are near or pass their life span. If you commute on a
> >yearly basis, riding nites for most of the year, you need to replace the bulb at least once a
> >year. So when did you replace yours??
>
> Once a year ? If i'm not incorrect, the HID bulb should last 1000 hours and not be noticeably
> dimmer at the end of it's life. I commute 1 hour daily, half the year in the dark. That's a little
> over 100 hours a year + pleasure rides. Let's say 150 hours, that gives me 6-7 years of bulb life.
>

I think if you read my past statement carefully, I was referring to generator lights which, by the
way, has a bulb lifespan of only 100 hours. I don't know why you think I was talking about HID bulb,
but consider that most commute last about 1 hr x 365 for the truly die hards. For most people, it
would be halved that for the winter months, so it clearly exceeded the 100 hrs lifespan of most
typical generator lights per year. Peter White Cycles mentions this on his SON website. Yet, people
rarely change their bulbs or know how to do it properly. And no, you don't use your fingers to
change as skin oil can decrease the lifespan of the new bulb too!
 
> I got mine by accident. Needing a new rear tire, and determined to get something better than the
> lame cheapo tire my LBS put on the last time, I asked him to order a Cheng Shin nylon tire, which
> was the original equipment tire on my Marin hybrid. It's a cheapo too, but they wear well. Anyway,
> when I picked it up, it had the reflective sidewall. I heard reflective tires are mandatory in
> Germany, but don't know for sure. Reflective sidewalls do give some protection against cross
> traffic though. Best regards, Bernie
>

It's also mandatory in some parts of Asia as well, especially in China and Taiwan. I think Japan
too, but I haven't stayed there long enough to confirm that's the case.
 
Something else I'd hope people consider here. I do about half of my commute on a paved bike trail.
Some people have such powerful lights that I'm blinded for ages for 50 yards before they come up to
me, and dazzled for another 50 yards after they have passed. Maybe that level of power is
appropriate on the road, but it's crazy on the trail. God forbid a Stealth Pedestrian (you know,
dressed in entirely in black, no reflective anything, ambling along the middle of the path) would be
walking along before or after I encounter one of these cyclists. It wouldn't matter what my lighting
system is -- it's my eyeballs that are fried.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
 
In article=20 <121220030747506800%[email protected]>,=20
[email protected] says...
> In article <[email protected]>, Jens Kr. Kirkeb=F8 <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:43:56 GMT, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> >=20
> > >I think most newbie commuters overcomplicate lighting requirements by buying expensive lights,
> > >hopefully to be light king of the road where they would light themselves up like a christmas
> > >tree. What about passive illumination using effective reflectors. They are cheap and light and
> > >use other people's lights to light you up. =20
> >=20
> > And doesn't always work very well. Like cars pulling out from a side-street in front of you,
> > they don't see you coming from the side if you only have reflectors, and probably not if you
> > have a small led blinker too. If you have a HID light lighting up the whole road before them you
> > can be sure they notice though. Same goes for people backing out of their driveway, crossing the
> > bikelane or multi-use path.=20
> >=20
>=20
> And only cyclists get hit by cars backing out of their driveway.. What about joggers or walkers
> that go out at night? I see plenty of them on

Because a jogger or walker can stop in about 3 to 6 feet when he sees=20 the car pulling out in
front of him. The bike cannot stop that fast,=20 so there is much less margin for error.

...

> Also, bright lights from your bike can temporarily blind a motorist coming from the opposite lane.
> This is simply because, our pupil's diaphragm open up more in the absence of bright ambient light.
> By shining bright light to on coming traffic, you are making yourself unseen by them. Most
> motorists will flash their beam to tell you that you are blinding them, but cyclists with HID or
> super bright lights thought it was working when in fact, their stupidity act means that they run
> more risk of being hit by opposite traffic who can't ascertain the location of the cyclist. All
> they see is just a huge ball of light. =20 There's no brains in doing that. =20 In fact, this
> situation is made worse in the rain where water droplets on the car's windshield and windows act
> as little prism reflectors.=20 Your bright HID light will not only blind on coming motorists, but
> also shift your actual bike position in relation to the road. =20

But at least they know something is there with a light, and they are=20 much less likely to just
turn or pull out in front of you. That's the=20 primary concern; not that they might drift over into
your lane.

--=20 Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
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