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Do you have to cheat?

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UK and Europe
Published
24 July 2007
Last activity
31 July 2007
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archierob
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  1. "Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Watching "The Flying Scotsman" I goggled all over again at the magnificent
    cycling of Graeme Obree and remembered the feeling at the time that "He's
    like me, only many magnitudes better". That's so different from "He
    started out like me but then followed a furtive chemical regime designed
    to give him a sneak advantage" which is my reaction to TdF and the like.

    Even those doping are "like me, only many magnitudes better" - they're
    pretty darn strong even before they start on the chemicals.

    cheers,
    clive

  2. Clive George said:

    "Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Watching "The Flying Scotsman" I goggled all over again at the
    magnificent cycling of Graeme Obree and remembered the feeling at the
    time that "He's like me, only many magnitudes better". That's so
    different from "He started out like me but then followed a furtive
    chemical regime designed to give him a sneak advantage" which is my
    reaction to TdF and the like.

    Even those doping are "like me, only many magnitudes better" - they're
    pretty darn strong even before they start on the chemicals.

    Oh absolutely - that's why the cheating is so hurtful. I accept my puny
    place in the firmament of human ability and marvel, perhaps with an
    envious sigh, at those much more blessed. But I'm not one iota envious
    of those who cannot accept being second, or third, or whatever, best in
    the entire world (positions unimaginably beyond my own) but have to
    resort to furtive, sneaking, cheating means of advancement.

    In other words, it's not particularly the doping that irks me. If
    they're all taking the same muck, so be it, it's their own health
    they're risking. It's the underhandedness of it that drops them from
    their pedestals in my estimation. Elsewhere, Simon Brooke writes
    eloquently of "flawed heroes", but these guys aren't just laid low at
    the last by their own frailties, they're engaged (allegedly) in a
    systematic con trick designed to win them not just the favour of the
    crowd, not just a place alongside Mercxx and Anquetil, but a pile of
    money unjustly gained.

    A flawed hero enjoys a slightly dimmed respect - these guys are worthless.

    --
    Brian G
    www.wetwo.co.uk

  3. Quoted message said:

    For me, the love of cycling comes purely from the act of pedaling.
    Racing has very little to do with it.

    See, I was hit by a pickup truck while cycling to graduate school. And
    the accident put me into a coma. It also severely screwed up my
    balance, making me unable to ride a bicycle. Because of this, I
    discovered the greatness of trikes. So, yes, I still ride a
    velocipede.

    At the risk of topic drift, where did you find
    a trike in the USA - AFAIK they're (primarily)
    a Terribly British phenomona.

    www.tricycleassociation.org.uk

    BugBear

  4. bugbear said:

    At the risk of topic drift, where did you find
    a trike in the USA - AFAIK they're (primarily)
    a Terribly British phenomona.

    Drop-bar upright deltas, yes, but I know for a fact that there's no
    shortage of recumbent and utility (mainly cargo) trikes overseas.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  5. archierob said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    I ride a bike because it's fun, cheap, and healthy. I've never
    watched the TDF and probably never will, it's not my idea of pleasant
    cycling and every time I do see a bit of it on the news I wonder how
    much pollution the riders are inhaling from the seemingly dozens of
    cars and motorcycles ahead of them.

    Any sport where the "athletes" cheat by taking drugs deserves to die
    anyway. They should give life bans and huge fines to all those
    caught, chuck the eniter teams of cheaters out and ban them (the
    teams) for at least five years, and absolutely everyone taking part
    should have drug tests every second or third day.

    There is absolutely no excuse for drugs in sport, ever.

  6. "Pyromancer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I ride a bike because it's fun, cheap, and healthy. I've never
    watched the TDF and probably never will, it's not my idea of pleasant
    cycling

    You should try riding some of the hills they ride - hard work, but rather
    good riding!

    cheers,
    clive

  7. --

    "Pyromancer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    archierob said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    I ride a bike because it's fun, cheap, and healthy. I've never
    watched the TDF and probably never will, it's not my idea of pleasant
    cycling and every time I do see a bit of it on the news I wonder how
    much pollution the riders are inhaling from the seemingly dozens of
    cars and motorcycles ahead of them.

    Any sport where the "athletes" cheat by taking drugs deserves to die
    anyway. They should give life bans and huge fines to all those
    caught, chuck the eniter teams of cheaters out and ban them (the
    teams) for at least five years, and absolutely everyone taking part
    should have drug tests every second or third day.

    There is absolutely no excuse for drugs in sport, ever.

    Quoted message said:


    I am in total agreement with you.

    I am, to be honest amazed by some of the replies on here condoning the use of
    drugs ---- or saying oh they work hard anyway, ---- or isn't it such a
    fantastic spectacle and they all do it! And didn't he look good on that ride
    when after a failed day he out performed every one in sight ( and could
    probably have done the same again a second time round without stopping.)

    Sorry blokes but this is not "SPORT"

    If you want to see extraordinary performances at any "SPORT" then throw away
    the rule book and lets us watch men ( and women) destroy their bodies in their
    20's and die by the time they are 40. I am sure that the moneys put into such
    a "spectacle" of any kind athletics, cycling, swimming usw, would provide
    entertainment for the masses and allow a few performers a huge input of
    cash -- with which they could then try and repair the damage to their bodies!

    I am, I know, one of a few voices crying in the wilderness -- but for goodness
    sake don't call this sort of thing sport!

    Trevor A Panther
    In South Yorkshire,
    England, United Kingdom.
    www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

  8. Quoted message said:

    Any sport where the "athletes" cheat by taking drugs deserves to die
    anyway.

    Bye-bye football, golf, tennis, athletics, basketball...

    The reason there are so many stories about drug taking in the sport of
    cycling is because of the efforts put in to catch the cheats.

  9. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, archierob

    (') said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    I add the question: Can we really trust the tests? They're mostly all based
    on probability, and as I understand it, the UCI and/or WADA, has changed the
    positive test limits on a variety of tests, based on their desire to catch
    more riders, not based on science. You can't do that and be taken seriously.
    I'm certainly not saying that riders are clean, but there is enough politics
    and [censored] in the testing process itself to call results into question.

    Quoted message said:

    OK, this is a question on many levels.

    Firstly Vino. Vino is a flawed hero. But, watching him tearing apart the
    team he was supposed to be riding for in 2005, we knew he was flawed.
    Brilliant, mercurial, egocentric, courageous, manic, charismatic, foolish.
    A man driven by complex drives; a big man in a sense which has nothing to
    do with physical size. I wrote two days ago that I wouldn't be surprised
    if Vino was doping, I wouldn't even be surprised if he'd been doping this
    week, and I wouldn't think less of him if I learned he had. Well, he has,
    and I don't. The fact that it was homologous not autologous suggests that
    it wasn't planned for in advance - it was a spur of the moment thing, an
    act of desperation. And that's very human, something I can relate to.
    There is tragedy here, in a classical Greek sense: the flawed hero finally
    destroyed by his flaws. But still a hero. We will be poorer - cycling will
    be poorer - without him.

    I can't recall, but wasn't Tyler Hamilton caught on a similar finding? I
    remember that at least one prominent doctor from the Mayo clinic called the
    results of the test that caught him into question, based on science. Biology
    is one of the least clear cut sciences, and tests will never be perfect. If
    they want to get serious, they would have to monitor the athlete perhaps
    weekly, with key hormone levels and hemitocrit recorded over time to ensure
    that athlete's baseline, then any changes in key performance parameters
    would clearly stand out. OTOH, I really don't care if they dope or not, I'm
    just sick of hearing about it, and I'm very suspicious about the politics of
    it all.

    -Tony

  10. in message
    <[email hidden]>,

    D.M. Procida (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    Rasmussen, the strange, the driven - not as arrogant as Armstrong, not
    as attractive as Landis

    Not as attractive as Landis?! That is the first time I have seen the
    concept brought anywhere near the man.

    I don't mean good to look at, but he comes over as a straightforward, warm,
    likeable sort of fellow - which, among the very driven GC contenders, is a
    rare attribute. Of course, this may all be front for the cameras, but if
    so he did it well.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    The Conservative Party is now dead. The corpse may still be
    twitching, but resurrection is not an option - unless Satan
    chucks them out of Hell as too objectionable even for him.

  11. bugbear said:
    archierob said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    One of the joys of time trialing "against yourself"

    That is a slightly misleading myth. Most time-triallists ride "against
    the clock". The obsession that they attach to shaving a second or two
    off their previous bests often reaches unhealthy extremes.
    So much so, they go chasing all over the country to ride on
    traffic-laden near motorways.
    Are you certain all are so 'honest' and are not sometimes tempted astray?

    John B

  12. John B said:
    bugbear said:
    archierob said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    Quoted message said:

    One of the joys of time trialing "against yourself"

    That is a slightly misleading myth. Most time-triallists ride "against
    the clock". The obsession that they attach to shaving a second or two
    off their previous bests often reaches unhealthy extremes.
    So much so, they go chasing all over the country to ride on
    traffic-laden near motorways.
    Are you certain all are so 'honest' and are not sometimes tempted astray?

    That may be the case in the south, but here the locals don't do that
    (and many of them are rather fast).

    Locally there are three guys at the top who are there or thereabouts
    when it comes to times (typically around 20-22 minutes for a 10). You
    can guarantee that one of them will win but never quite which one
    (though the stats give a hint). There is no thought of chasing
    motorway style courses cos we don't have any. It is racing the other
    person, or yourself on the same course that is the issue.

    OK, there are some nutters but they are few and far between.

    ...d

  13. archierob said the following on 24/07/2007 21:35:

    Quoted message said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    I don't see any dodgy chemistry around Steve Peat or Rachel Atherton or
    Helen Gaskell or....

    Oh, hang on, they're not roadies :-)

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  14. Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

    I don't see any dodgy chemistry around Steve Peat or Rachel Atherton or
    Helen Gaskell or....

    Oh, hang on, they're not roadies :-)

    You don't see any arounf Nicole Cooke either.

    --
    Dave...

  15. Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, archierob

    (') said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    OK, this is a question on many levels.

    Firstly Vino. Vino is a flawed hero. But, watching him tearing apart the
    team he was supposed to be riding for in 2005, we knew he was flawed.
    Brilliant, mercurial, egocentric, courageous, manic, charismatic, foolish.
    A man driven by complex drives; a big man in a sense which has nothing to
    do with physical size. I wrote two days ago that I wouldn't be surprised
    if Vino was doping, I wouldn't even be surprised if he'd been doping this
    week, and I wouldn't think less of him if I learned he had. Well, he has,
    and I don't. The fact that it was homologous not autologous suggests that
    it wasn't planned for in advance - it was a spur of the moment thing, an
    act of desperation. And that's very human, something I can relate to.
    There is tragedy here, in a classical Greek sense: the flawed hero finally
    destroyed by his flaws. But still a hero. We will be poorer - cycling will
    be poorer - without him.

    Secondly, cheating. Once upon a time in a universe far away, there was a
    little cycling club with a group of good under-16 riders. One of them had
    a very ambitious father. When the club ran time trials, the father
    would 'train' on the same circuit as the time trial, and when he did this
    the son would always record the best time. Then, one week, a neighbouring
    club ran their time trial on the same course, and both father and son
    raced. The son's time was four minutes slower than he'd been recording
    when his father was 'training'.

    Cheating happens at all levels and doesn't have to involve hypodermic
    needles. Myself, I'm never going to win a race and I know I'm never going
    to win a race; and I don't validate myself with the idea that I might win
    a race. So I don't need to cheat. Does cheating (in races in which I race)
    spoil it for me? No. I ride for the pleasure of riding, and for the
    camaraderie. For those of us who never had the genetic endowments to make
    us potential winners, cheating isn't a temptation, and racing can be
    enjoyed simply for itself.

    In the hypothetical little fairy story I told above, the other kids knew
    the son was cheating, and I think it did spoil their enjoyment a bit -
    because they could have won if he hadn't. But the child I felt sorry for
    was the son himself.

    Third, spectacle. The big professional races need to be understood as
    spectacle, as morality play, as tournament. Rasmussen, the strange, the
    driven - not as arrogant as Armstrong, not as attractive as Landis, but
    ultimately as flawed as either. Sastre, the willing lieutenant left
    exposed in the spotlight by the loss of his leader and lacking the last
    ounce of drive to take his place. Ullrich, supremely gifted, riding
    through his career in the shadow of someone more gifted (or better doped).
    Basso (and Millar), the golden boys blessed by all the gods, who fell
    because they lacked confidence in their own abilities. Yes, cheating
    happens. But it is part of the drama.

    Winning the Tour de France is a very big ambition. All across the world,
    children are lying in bed dreaming that one day it could be them. This is
    the great test in cycling, in the same way that single handed non-stop
    circumnavigation is the great test in sailing. People are drawn to great
    tests, and only the most gifted and the most driven will ever achieve
    them. For the nearly men, the temptation to cheat must be overwhelming.

    I have no simple solution to this. Ride because you enjoy it. Watch the
    great riders because, doped or undoped, cheating or not, what they are
    doing is epic, is magnificent, is extraordinary. But under that they're
    still human, and humans have flaws, even heros.

    Halfway through writing this, an old cycling friend phoned up to talk about
    the news. And in talking about it with him, I realise that one thing would
    still hurt me. I would really be hurt if we learned that Tom Boonen had
    doped. And I'm not even a Boonen fan.

    Thanks, Simon. Well said (even if unusually eloquent for RBR)

    Mark J.

  16. Simon Brooke said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not as attractive as Landis?! That is the first time I have seen the
    concept brought anywhere near the man.

    I don't mean good to look at, but he comes over as a straightforward, warm,
    likeable sort of fellow - which, among the very driven GC contenders, is a
    rare attribute. Of course, this may all be front for the cameras, but if
    so he did it well.

    He didn't seem any of that to me, not that I paid much attention to him.

    What I have read recently doesn't make him more attractive to me, such
    as the remarks reported at:

    <http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2006/11/tuesday-roundup_28.html> (go down
    to "Forums"😉

    or the revelation that he allowed his manager to call up Greg Lemond
    making revolting jokes about the latter's having been sexually abused as
    child.

    Daniele

  17. Simon Brooke said:

    driven - not as arrogant as Armstrong, not as attractive as Landis


    Stop fooling yourself. Landis is uuuuugly.

  18. in message <[email hidden]>,

    dkahn400 (') said:
    Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

    I don't see any dodgy chemistry around Steve Peat or Rachel Atherton or
    Helen Gaskell or....

    Oh, hang on, they're not roadies :-)

    You don't see any arounf Nicole Cooke either.

    Nicole has not raced and has not updated her website in two months. She was
    on the start list for the Giro Feminale but did not start. I am told that
    she is resting in advance of the World Championships. I hope this is true.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
    patiently for the RAC to arrive.

  19. If you look at the history of the tour, pretty much every tour champion has been caught doping (including Merckx!).

    What is curious though is how certain individuals are picked out...

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>, archierob

    (') said:

    It is a passion - perhaps the one enduring passion of my life, I love
    my bike, I love cycling - but should I love it? It has become a game
    of cheats and chemists - my chemist is more gifted than yours, the
    latest revelations in a tour that was supposed to restore all our
    faith in its honesty is increasingly seemingly more fraudulent by the
    day. Should I give up? Can this sport ever be honest, indeed can any
    'sport'?

    OK, this is a question on many levels.

    Firstly Vino. Vino is a flawed hero.

    Quoted message said:

    Secondly, cheating. Once upon a time in a universe far away, there was a
    little cycling club with a group of good under-16 riders. One of them had
    a very ambitious father. When the club ran time trials, the father
    would 'train' on the same circuit as the time trial, and when he did this
    the son would always record the best time. Then, one week, a neighbouring
    club ran their time trial on the same course, and both father and son
    raced. The son's time was four minutes slower than he'd been recording
    when his father was 'training'.

    Quoted message said:

    In the hypothetical little fairy story I told above, the other kids knew
    the son was cheating, and I think it did spoil their enjoyment a bit -
    because they could have won if he hadn't. But the child I felt sorry for
    was the son himself.

    You feel sorry for the son? The most pathetic character is clearly the
    father.

    Quoted message said:

    Third, spectacle. The big professional races need to be understood as
    spectacle, as morality play, as tournament.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, cheating
    happens. But it is part of the drama.

    As doping scandals dominate the sport, We experience the pro wrestling
    phenomenon: good drama, bad sport.

    Quoted message said:

    Winning the Tour de France is a very big ambition. All across the world,
    children are lying in bed dreaming that one day it could be them. This is
    the great test in cycling, in the same way that single handed non-stop
    circumnavigation is the great test in sailing. People are drawn to great
    tests, and only the most gifted and the most driven will ever achieve
    them. For the nearly men, the temptation to cheat must be overwhelming.

    "People are drawn to great tests...the temptation to cheat must be
    overwhelming." You're referring to [censored] Pound, aren't you?

    I think at this point the "NHL hockey helmet conundrum" may describe the
    riders' attitudes towards helmets, as explained in this column:

    http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2007/07/23/070723ta_talk_surowiec
    ki

    In short, most hockey players in the NHL of the 1970s wanted helmets to
    be mandatory, but didn't wear one.

    "The reason for this conflict, Schelling explained, was that not wearing
    a helmet conferred a slight advantage on the ice; crucially, it gave the
    player better peripheral vision, and it also made him look fearless. The
    players wanted to have their heads protected, but as individuals they
    couldn't afford to jeopardize their effectiveness on the ice."

    Similarly, there's a sort of Prisoner's Dilemma in doping. The greatest
    average benefit to the riders (never mind the sport in general) would be
    if nobody doped. The bad-case scenario is if everybody dopes (no
    advantage to doping, plus you risk getting busted, or sick). But if the
    other guy dopes and you don't, you lose for sure.

    So, lots of riders dope.

    As for my thoughts on this matter, the short version is that I like
    amateur racing, and I don't think it is good for the pro sport when the
    decisive move in the Tour comes on the rest day.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

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