Do you have to use perfromance enhancers to be a pro?



Drug use in powerlifting and bodybuilding has been going on for many years. Back into the 60's in Arnold's, Segio and Franco's day.

I started using in college in the 80's and it was extremely easy to get and it wasn't counterfeited as much as it is in today's time.

I bailed out of competitive bodybuilding after qualifying for the NPC National in 1993 and my choice at that time was to step up to the next level by using GH and insulin or get out. My last cycle of gear was in 1996.

As much as I hate to admit to it and not to critize others, Muscle & Fitness along with the other magazines is nothing more than marketing hype. I still pick one up from time to time just to see who is doing what in the pro and national ranks, but take every thing else with a grain of salt.

As far as I knew as a competitor drug use was secretly condoned and reward in the NPC behind the scenes and condemned in public media.

Look at the appearance of the distended bellies on the athletes and the facial appearance of the competitors and you will see the result of GH abuse. It is very obvious for most of the competitors.
 
Felt_Rider said:
Drug use in powerlifting and bodybuilding has been going on for many years. Back into the 60's in Arnold's, Segio and Franco's day.

I started using in college in the 80's and it was extremely easy to get and it wasn't counterfeited as much as it is in today's time.

I bailed out of competitive bodybuilding after qualifying for the NPC National in 1993 and my choice at that time was to step up to the next level by using GH and insulin or get out. My last cycle of gear was in 1996.

As much as I hate to admit to it and not to critize others, Muscle & Fitness along with the other magazines is nothing more than marketing hype. I still pick one up from time to time just to see who is doing what in the pro and national ranks, but take every thing else with a grain of salt.

As far as I knew as a competitor drug use was secretly condoned and reward in the NPC behind the scenes and condemned in public media.

Look at the appearance of the distended bellies on the athletes and the facial appearance of the competitors and you will see the result of GH abuse. It is very obvious for most of the competitors.

I started lifting in the mid 80's and actually believed I was going to look like Arnold or Mentzer if I followed their routines and ate right. Weider proclaimed everyone was drug-free and as a teenager believed it. Around 1989 I was wondering if i had Danny Devito's genes instead of Arnie's(TWIiNS).

Only after Momo's death (93?) did Weider start acknowledging that some used it. Then Freitas got busted by customs. Dillet almost died. Etc. I saw Matarazzo :eek: at Musclemania after winning the NPC's you were at.

Now of course I realize why I couldn't bench 500 and didn't have 19+ inch arms and why all teenagers now are already as strong as I am (still benching a little over 300). What's nice though is that I have been lifting so long naturally, I never seem to lose strength even if I take relatively long periods off.

What is scary though is that Matarazzo just had bypass surgery, Quadzilla just died, Momo is dead, Muntzer is dead, etc.
 
A well known and most recent bad experience is with Tom Prince.

He is now retired, but I am glad that he has taken his life to be more important and the warnings from the doctors serious over trying to remain as a competitive pro bodybuilder.


I would guess that with my genetics (including receptors for androgens/anabolics) that steroids gave me a 10 to 20% advantage over my natural state, but my base was built from previous years of natural training and now I have returned to natural training for the past 9 years.

I have to say that my personal best ever that will not escape my memory. The one lift that I made that I cherish was at the age of 37 and was a drug free lift. I did 6 reps with 695 on hack squats below parallel (full squat). I am 5'6" and weighed about 180 at that time. Almost everyone in the gym stopped to watch even world class lifters were freaking out and it was done while drug free. I actually did this on two seperate occassions, but the day everyone stopped to watch meant the most to me.
 
Felt_Rider said:
I did 6 reps with 695 on hack squats below parallel (full squat).

That's awesome.

Last year I was in the gym with only a couple of guys. This guy in the corner did a No/No/No full squat with 290kg stopping at the bottom for what seemed like an eternity to me. I swore he wasn't going to budge. Sure enough straight up. Impressive.
 
I know Ted. Grew up in the same town, his dad was my orthodontist. Eventually we trained at the same gym for a bit. Ted wasnt clean, but did have gear genetics too. My friend Joe Bianci will do 700 under 220lbs. He is a freak, and clean There are many guys that can do amazing things in all sports that are clean. I dont have enough knowledge of cycling performance to make assumptions of what cyclist might be on something. I rarely buy into lifting numbers that guys post in the squat any how. What is a squat?? How low was the lift. Did he use equipment...wraps??...Why cant the the same dude deadlift a similar number? I have done half squats with 700 with just a belt....so what!!!. Notice I said HALF. I have never used anything, and never will, I dont think about the drug users much;it takes too much energy. Keep grinding away!! Thanks BP
Meek One said:
C'mon Bill, don't you know it is all about genetics, perfect training and clean eating. Elite powerlifters are obviously lacking in one of those variables since many bike riders are just as strong ;). You could make millions by figuring out which one it is. :D Don't be so negative, everyone is clean. Why people would bring up the subject is beyond me. Just because they are trying to be the best in their sport they wouldn't cross the line to attain that goal. No bad apples. Just remember pro bodybuilders just started dabbling in drugs a few years ago. But they are drug tested too. :rolleyes: According to my M&F's in the basement no one in the 80's or early 90's took drugs either and Lee Haney and Gary Strydom looked pretty good back in the day.

PS I've been wondering how the bench press record has increased by about 300 pounds in the last 10 years since Ted Arcidi broke 700 and now EVERYONE in the Arnold classic could do 800+. I heard someone is attempting 1000. It was so ridiculous I almost decided to try to lift 800, it was all so surreal.
 
Meek One said:
That's awesome.

Last year I was in the gym with only a couple of guys. This guy in the corner did a No/No/No full squat with 290kg stopping at the bottom for what seemed like an eternity to me. I swore he wasn't going to budge. Sure enough straight up. Impressive.
Some powerlifters use that technique of "rest pause" or "box squats".


Very impressive to see guys do this and it will build some very explosive power coming out of the bottom. Resting at the bottom is pure strength where as many guys will use momentum or bounce off of their hamstrings off their calves to keep the momentum going. I used to incorporate one or two sets of pauses to help build that explosive strength.

The same technique is more often used for bench presses.
 
Free weight below paralell pause with over 600lbs. Thats a strong guy.World class in any weight class
Meek One said:
That's awesome.

Last year I was in the gym with only a couple of guys. This guy in the corner did a No/No/No full squat with 290kg stopping at the bottom for what seemed like an eternity to me. I swore he wasn't going to budge. Sure enough straight up. Impressive.
 
The truth is, anyone who knows won't talk. Speculate all you want but even with the little I've seen I feel uneasy talking about it. Even ritalin can be a performance enhancer.

But as far as athlete deaths.. cyclists push their heart and lungs harder than is safe. I had seen 235 bpm in a sprint and would hold 200 BPM for hours a day. Any minor heart problem and you're dead.
 
I don't think as many cyclists are taking now dope as before.

I think it has improved, especially in the last couple of (4, 5) years.

According to Patrick Lefevre, teamboss of Quick-Step, he believes the "30 or 40 in the peloton who still take dope should be eliminated".

I think back in the days of 93 up to 98 there was no way you could compete in a big race without at least raising your hematocrite up to 55. Since the EPO test in 2001, I think this has improved although there are probably a lot of good ways around the urine test.

It seems quite evident to me there are still cyclists with a hematocrite level of about 41 who have no trouble raising this to 49, masking the EPO in their urine with some unknown substance.

When Marc Lotz, (ex?-)rider of Quick-Step was caught with EPO in his home, he said he was sure that he wouldn't be caught, although he never explained this.


It has been suggested by a few people how this is done; I believe mister Manzano has claimed that blood tests for hematocrite levels were easily passed by Kelme riders although their values were often over 50.

He says, and I quote from memory, that there were two or three cyclists within the team who were totally clean. When there was surprise blood test, these cyclists would go first, and the bigger ones of the team would go to another room and they would lower their hematocrite temporarily. I think this was done by drinking a lot, or, I cannot remember exactly, by administering glucose directly into the bloodstream.

It was also rumoured that Jan Ullrich had lowered his hematocrite with some substance in 1998 when he lost those 9 minutes I believe to Pantani because he had hear about a blood test after the race; it went wrong and he could hardly move.

This is just a rumour though.

I think another ex-cyclist had said that teams do still dope. He claims that in the earlier months of the season, cyclists are given EPO and go train on the altitudes to make "good" blood (in other words, hematocrite very high).

This blood is then taken away from them and is stored. Because surprise blood tests are often on the early mornings of the race, the stored blood cannot "just" be given to the riders during the big races. It is said that they wait for any surprise blood tests in the morning and then minutes before the race they replace the "bad" blood with the stored blood. Just after the race the blood is taken out again, and blood of lesser value is put in, to avoid getting caught in the blood test in the evening.

Apparently, the cyclists have become blood robots.

As for the health problems amongst cyclists, cycling itself is not really a healthy sport, no matter if there is doping involved or not. If there are 100 great cyclists, there will always be a 101st who is about as great but who is willing to damage his health to win.

Heart failure does not really seem like a weird phenomenon to me...

However, Lance Armstrong's cancer does make me wonder. The guy was about 25 I think when it was discovered he had testicular cancer, which had spread to his lungs, brain, stomach, ... well I think it was just about everywhere.

So this must have been a very strong cancer.

How much we all like to accept cancer these days, it is in fact not normal. Cancer is a disease which, I believe, is caused by the bad foods we eat these days, bad air, radiation from phones, PC and TV, the pill for women, etc. This can explain many of the cancers we see today; colon, stomach, lung, throat, brain, breast cancer...

How does one explain testicular cancer however? It must have something to do with hormones and messing about with them.

It seems quite obvious to me that - although I don't want to believe it - the most likely way for a young, very fit and healthy man to get a cancer as bad as this is by using performance enhancing hormones, like steroids, and growth hormones.

Let's not forget Armstrong was a very strong rider full of power and that he got most of his good results in a time when doping, especially EPO and hormones, were sort of freely used.

This makes it ever stranger that he came back so extremely well prepared for the mountains and time-trials. Of course, his muscle structure and body changed after his cancer and chemotherapy, but I wonder if this could explain it all.

Are there any suggestions LA has used dope to win his seven tours? I think there might be. For example all the stories about 1999, the positive urine tests and the stories by that Emma woman, who said Armstrong told her he would raise his hematocrite.

Another strong example is what happened in last years tour de france, in the Germany stage, I believe won by Pieter Weening. Armstrongs team was nowhere to be found on the day, and Armstrong could hardly keep up with the others on a 2nd category climb. I don't think he expected an attack that day...

So do the others still dope? I do think the better teams do, like DSC, CSC and Quick-Step, possibly. Also some of the others, like Würth (obviously. But many of the other teams are clean I think.
 
JohnDDD said:
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I think another ex-cyclist had said that teams do still dope. He claims that in the earlier months of the season, cyclists are given EPO and go train on the altitudes to make "good" blood (in other words, hematocrite very high).

This blood is then taken away from them and is stored. Because surprise blood tests are often on the early mornings of the race, the stored blood cannot "just" be given to the riders during the big races. It is said that they wait for any surprise blood tests in the morning and then minutes before the race they replace the "bad" blood with the stored blood. Just after the race the blood is taken out again, and blood of lesser value is put in, to avoid getting caught in the blood test in the evening.


I must say that all these methods of evasion are very clever! Probably work well, too.

Anyone know how the cyclists evade the EPO and/or high hematocrit problem when they're tested immediately at the end of the race? Like, when they win the stage? It's probably also pretty clever, I'd just like to hear about it.





However, Lance Armstrong's cancer does make me wonder. The guy was about 25 I think when it was discovered he had testicular cancer, which had spread to his lungs, brain, stomach, ... well I think it was just about everywhere.

So this must have been a very strong cancer.


How much we all like to accept cancer these days, it is in fact not normal. Cancer is a disease which, I believe, is caused by the bad foods we eat these days, bad air, radiation from phones, PC and TV, the pill for women, etc. This can explain many of the cancers we see today; colon, stomach, lung, throat, brain, breast cancer...

How does one explain testicular cancer however? It must have something to do with hormones and messing about with them.



No, not necessarily. Testicular is the most common of all cancers in men of that age group (late teens - late twenties). There are about 10,000 cases per year in the US. The number of cases has been holding pretty steady for some decades now.


Armstrong's cancer wasn't "strong", it was just diagnosed way way late. Untreated testicular cancer is close to 100% fatal: Armstrong's was following a very typical course.

His cancer's response to platinum therapy was also, thankfully, very typical; testicular cancer is close to 100% curable with platinum (doesn't that make all you young guys feel relieved?:):)).


The only thing atypical about Armstrong's case is that it had gotten to such a late stage, but he still was cured. And, that's not unusual: it's just the luck of the draw as to whether the particular kind of testicular cancer you get responds well, medium well, poorly, or fantastically, to platinum.



It seems quite obvious to me that - although I don't want to believe it - the most likely way for a young, very fit and healthy man to get a cancer as bad as this is by using performance enhancing hormones, like steroids, and growth hormones.


Again no, not at all necessary for a young man to be doping to get this kind of cancer. No matter how fit and healthy: testicular cancer patients are almost always more fit and healthy than the rest of us, just because they are usually young men.


And, if doping led to an increased likelihood of testicular cancer, surely we would have seen a big increase in the cancer in recent decades, with the explosion of new doping drugs. Among older men, too, as well as younger, and among all kinds of athletes.



This makes it ever stranger that he came back so extremely well prepared for the mountains and time-trials. Of course, his muscle structure and body changed after his cancer and chemotherapy, but I wonder if this could explain it all.


I wouldn't know at all if what Armstrong did or trained or changed after the cancer could explain his improved performance (I'm trying to say, I can't tell from that whether he was doping).


But, cancer and chemo shouldn't have necessarily affected his performance. Cancer isn't a chronic illness, whose effects are felt forever, unless you've already sustained some organ damage from it. Armstrong's only organ damage from the cancer seems to have been his testicle, which was removed. Then, once the cancer is gone, it's gone, and doesn't have any more effects on your physiology.


It's like pneumonia: once the bacteria are gone, unless you've sustained lung damage, you're back to whatever you normally were.


Chemo is much more likely to cause permanent organ damage in the short term. Kidney damage, in the case of platinum. But, a great number of people do not sustain any permanent injury from chemo. So, it's not so surprising if Armstrong didn't.

Chemo is like poisoning (it is, in fact, poison): you get sick when it's in you, but when it's gone, unless you've gotten permanent damage, you go back to being just as healthy as before.


So, it isn't necessarily true that cancer and chemo should have prevented Armstrong from getting back to, at least, his prior form.



I don't know at all about the current state of doping in cycling; seems that the circumstantial evidence might lead to the hypothesis that there's quite a bit of it.
 
Straigt reply to topic: It is possible to be a pro without doping. Whether it is possible to win any races or not, is hard to assess. Sports medicine publications aren't exactly flooded with studies on endurance doping, which is reasonable as doping is prohibited. Which means you can't answer the win question with a simple YES/NO.

I took some lectures with a doctor who worked in the field of sports medicine, and he didn't personally believe that doping would provide more than a couple of percent improvement.

It is all really just a matter of how the gaussian distribution of talent looks like, what the standard deviation is, and how much you can gain by doping. Now, we know from ergometric testing that people who train just as much, have performance deviations attributable to talent in the range of +/- 20%. Meaning that 2% won't get you a long way if you are just an average rider- blame your parents.

Now, the average talent in the pro peloton is naturally a lot higher than in the general population, meaning that the mean performance to training hours must be a lot higher. The standard deviation will probably also be a lot lower. Even if drugs gave you as little as 2% performance boost, that little increase would mean everything in the pro peloton.

Now to the winning question. If there was an individual, a talent of the century, who was so gifted that he was 2% better than the second most talented, then he could just win without doping on a photo finish. There won't be many people with that much talent.

It is clear that for a clean rider to both win and distance the rest of the shooting stars, it would take a huge leap in talent. Consequently, I find it hard to believe that the best riders would be clean. I find it even harder to believe that any second-best rider would be clean, as there are more riders in this category, and the probability is high that any given one of these will dope.

So the answer is: if you got enough talent, it will take you to a domestique role without doping in one-day events where regeneration supplements are of no importance. If you had sky high talent and sky high natural VO2 max levels, there is a small chance you might win something without juice. Otherwise, I think we just have to realize that cycling is a joint juice/talent competition, and the probability that the best riders are juicing is by far outweighing the contrary.
 
snyper0311 said:
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UNFORTUNATELY, AUTOPSIES can only show that a heart attack occurred, not that EPO caused it or was even present in the bloodstream at the time of death. :eek:
That's like saying skid marks cause car crashes.
 
Eldrack said:
I would disagree with you on this point. I think that based on the same level of training the advantages gained from being both genetically and neuromusculary superior are similar to the advantages gained from taking dope. Therefore the dopers and the naturally gifted athletes are cycling at the same level.

There is always a temptation to dope, no matter how naturally talented you are, after all it requires so much less work to ram a syringe up you arm and doing 2 hours training than spend 5 hours a day increasing your vVO2 max by riding up mountains. However not everyone is has morals the are weak enough to let them dope. No matter how tough it gets a lot of people still fundamentally disagree with doping and are prepared to train harder to get the same results as the dopers.

Obviously doping is an attractive avenue to someone who wants to get good fast and win but I think you underestimate the moral resolve of the racers.

What do you have when geneticaly favorable riders train as hard and often as possible and do massive amounts of drugs? Modern sport :)
 
My limited understanding of EPO use and effects are that it can be taken prior to an event, whereby natural heamocrit levels are increased (drug stimulates this effect). The elevated heamocrit levels are then sustained for weeks after the traces of EPO are passed out of the body. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If the above is true, testing at the event would be as useful as steroid testing at the event. It is well known that steroids aid in mucle development before an event and the athlete simply stops ingestion at a safe period before an event to allow the body to remove traces.

Also, are heamocrit levels regulated/tested in cycling and if so, what is the threshold?. I know that testosterone for example is given a normalized bandwidth, beyond which a rider is deemed to have used artificial means (eg. Landis case). Again my limited understanding was that high heamocrit levels were not regulated, only the presence of EPO, masking agents etc. caused a failed test. This would explain why high-heamocrit-density blood transfusions are used.

I also heard as hearsay from a semi-pro rider that he thinks Landis inadvertently transfused some testosterone-tainted blood before his epic ride and this is why he is so angry about such a stupid error. Incidently, the probability of such a ride IMO after near-bonking the day before is next to zero without some form of artificial help. The muscles can't restore glycogen that fast IMHO.
 
Brizza said:
We do more drug testing than the US, yet we don't even have a pro competition :eek:

There is no money in Australian cycling until you get overseas.

Our pros work in poorly paying bike shops and are given a frame or bike each year as sponsorship until they get a reputation they can take overseas.

Where is the money causing all this corruption coming from?

OK a few individuals made a private decision, does that make every Australian dirty?

We have 364 days of warm weather. Is it any suprise we produce good athletes?
Considering the data you provided Brizza - 526 USA tested - 522 AUS tested. Whats Americas population in relation to ours?

About 14:1. Now come on, we DON'T have a pro competiton and money is SCARCE for any aspiring pro.

Sure we produce our bunch of idiots, but we're doing a lot.

I totally agree with you Brizza.