Do you think lance is doping? yes or no



Flyer

Banned
Sep 20, 2004
2,961
0
0
Patrick:

Unfortunately there are no drug tests for most anemia and renal failure products---so the # of tests are not relevant. Insulin, Human or horse Growth Hormones, Interlukin proteins, CERA, RSR-13, NESP, Eprix, EPO, DynEPO, as well as Phase 1 Clinical Trial drugs are undectable or can be undeticable with 72 hours of use---with long lasting and potent effects.

If the athlete is using stimulants or 20 years old DECA steroids he/she may be caught positive. And apparently, some athletes still do need to use last years drugs. But the top teams ought to use the newest stuff.

I agree, Lance trains in high volumes---maybe even higher levels than his competitors--I don't know. But many of his competitors do admit to anemia and anabolic doping (use of synthetic hormones) specifically so that they may "recover quicker" and thus train more often and with higher intensity after the build phase is completed. (I'll mention a very few names: Alex Zulle, Richard Virenque, David Miller, Phippe Gaumont, Robert Sassone, Oscar Camizend,
Pascal Herve, Laurent Brochard, Jesus Manzano, and Lance's National Junior Teammates Greg Strock & Eric Kaiter---all admitted users of synthetic hormones. I wonder why Lance would not do the exact same thing? His own peers seem to believe that trauma and cancer recovery drugs and tranfusions can help you win races and recovery fast too.

None of these guys got caught in a doping control test (except for Oscar) It was chiefly other embarrassing discoveries (Festina affair, Cofidis affair, Kelme affair etc...) So the testing did not affect their thought process.


Is not Lance fully committed to winning? Why won't he go the full distance as his peers have? Does Lance lack the proper doping mentality?

Fausto Coppi was a great Champion and he admitted to constant doping. Is Lance a greater human being than Coppi??

These powerful trauma and cancer/chemo/renal failure drugs do work--and very quicky too----so it is reasonable to assume that the biggest doper would train the most. Hey, didn't Lance use this stuff in 1997 & 1998? Or was it just aspirin and mineral water to rebuild from chemo? When exactly did he stop? and Why? What did Michele Ferrari suggest?

Otherwise, such a work ethic with exhaust the athlete into a case of mono or auto immune breakdown---which is perfectly organic outcome for an overtrained athlete. Non-dopers are simply too tired to train that much.

I do not recommend training the **** out of oneself as that might make you slower and weaker. Recovery is the key.

If the BALCO federal transcripts ever get leaked--that will be news!


Patrick88 said:
His drug is training.

He just trains the **** out of himself and pushes himself. If he did drugs he would have been caught, he must have done hundreds of tests.
 

El Loto

New Member
Jun 29, 2004
561
0
0
33
The worst thing that could ever happen to cycling is if Lance was found to be doping. The consequences would be monumental. I personally don't believe Lance is doping but after this scandal involving Tyler Hamilton I have some doubts. If cycling continues the way it does you risk losing the youth like myself. I love cycling but it can't carry on the way it does. The superstars need to set an example and cut out all this suspicion.
 

Virenque

New Member
Sep 6, 2004
1,211
0
0
36
El Loto said:
The worst thing that could ever happen to cycling is if Lance was found to be doping. The consequences would be monumental.
It will fire revolution:rolleyes:
 

Flyer

Banned
Sep 20, 2004
2,961
0
0
El Lotto:

Do not dispair. Cycling is a GREAT sport, can be very healthy, and is quite social too. And you can do it your whole life.

Cycling does not depend on Lance Armstrong. It never did, It depends on fun loving energic folls like you.

There are plenty of great role models---not associated with trauma dope matters in your local area. Get to know them

All Champions fade away eventually, but what remains is what we make of it.

Cycling is what we make of it, as is life.

Flying faster now.




El Loto said:
The worst thing that could ever happen to cycling is if Lance was found to be doping. The consequences would be monumental. I personally don't believe Lance is doping but after this scandal involving Tyler Hamilton I have some doubts. If cycling continues the way it does you risk losing the youth like myself. I love cycling but it can't carry on the way it does. The superstars need to set an example and cut out all this suspicion.
 

Roadie_scum

New Member
Nov 14, 2003
1,288
0
0
Flyer said:
El Lotto:

Do not dispair. Cycling is a GREAT sport, can be very healthy, and is quite social too. And you can do it your whole life.

Cycling does not depend on Lance Armstrong. It never did, It depends on fun loving energic folls like you.

There are plenty of great role models---not associated with trauma dope matters in your local area. Get to know them

All Champions fade away eventually, but what remains is what we make of it.

Cycling is what we make of it, as is life.

Flying faster now.


Well put. Do it because you love it. And it ain't hard to love...
 

Meek One

New Member
May 5, 2004
629
0
0
El Loto said:
The worst thing that could ever happen to cycling is if Lance was found to be doping. The consequences would be monumental. I personally don't believe Lance is doping but after this scandal involving Tyler Hamilton I have some doubts. If cycling continues the way it does you risk losing the youth like myself. I love cycling but it can't carry on the way it does. The superstars need to set an example and cut out all this suspicion.

Only problem is that (most likely) they wouldn't be superstars without the dope. Doesn't matter though. I like to bodybuild. In my youth I actually thought that hard training and eating and some vitamins and protein powder would make me like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Lou Ferrigno. ALL publications of that time either didn't mention Steroids or that nobody ever took them. I have old Muscle and Fitness mags that say this. Eventually with age and the fact that I still wasn't anywhere near huge and ripped I discovered as well as the magazines started talking about roids. Now supposedly they drug test pro bodybuilding. If anyone believes this (unless drug testing is for only weed) nobody and I mean nobody would pass. If you believe they are clean then you probably believe that the trails left behind some airplanes all of the world on a regular basis every couple days or so since about 1997 that turn into clouds are normal or healthy too. But that's another conspiracy....I still love to lift though, doesn't matter about the roid freaks taking gorilla hormones and other ****...I love biking too. Just don't idolize people, it's not good because they do do wrong eventually and if you read the bible it is a sin too. :)
 

alpedheuz_86

New Member
Sep 24, 2004
1
0
0
OF COURSE LANCE IS DOPING !!

whilst overcoming cancer he admitted to using EPO in order to "replenish" his red blood cells. Are you going to stand here and tell me that an athlete in his position would not have abused this.

Lance is a doper and thats the bottom line
 

skydive69

New Member
Aug 23, 2004
255
0
0
alpedheuz_86 said:
OF COURSE LANCE IS DOPING !!

whilst overcoming cancer he admitted to using EPO in order to "replenish" his red blood cells. Are you going to stand here and tell me that an athlete in his position would not have abused this.

Lance is a doper and thats the bottom line
Great logic - you must be quite a bright fellow! :mad:
 

tamman2000

New Member
Aug 3, 2004
89
0
0
alpedheuz_86 said:
Are you going to stand here and tell me that an athlete in his position would not have abused this.
No more absurd than you standing here and telling me that he has.

The bottom line is anyone who believes that without a doubt he is clean or believe without a doubt that he is dirty, is not making decisions based in facts...
 

Flyer

Banned
Sep 20, 2004
2,961
0
0
tamman2000 said:
No more absurd than you standing here and telling me that he has.

The bottom line is anyone who believes that without a doubt he is clean or believe without a doubt that he is dirty, is not making decisions based in facts...



Tamman 2000. Your point is noted.

But relying on a "truth telling theory/belief" should not be the only augument.

Reasonable conclusions may be drawn. There is plenty of information out there for those that care to follow the sport closely.

Sadly, the cicumstancial evidence/facts and the cycling peer doping echosystem that is all professional sport sits in stark contrast to your point.

We cannot, nor can UCI testers, prove that Lance is actively using high dosages of 1) anemia and renal failure drugs, 2) anabolic booster hormones such as insulin, Human Growth Hormone, IGF-1 as well as other anabolic cockrails 3) pain abatement drugs 4) stmulants for both training and racing 4) oral testerone easter eggs 5) blood transfusions or synthetic hemglobin, as needed, 6) saline feeds, as needed or 7) other adrenal function suppressors as needed.

Chiefly because, 1) no testing protocol exists for most of these powerful drugs--and because they are "transient in nature" and disappear quickly whilst leaving longlasting positive effects 2) Lance has medical certificates for some drugs for "therapeutic reasons", just ask Iban Mayo--he said so publicly this summer before the TDF, 3) masking protocols and agents can confuse samples. (saline feed to water down hematocrit level pre blood draw.

So depending upon testing won't prove much either way in this debate.

Really, the best information we have is from former employees, riders, and his own peer group. If Lance is not using chemo-recovery drugs now---why are his fellow competitors so commited to using them? (Please do not make me name the dozens of sad names, it is painful) Can you explain that?

Lance seems to be portayed as both a lone wolf and inigma--on one hand living proof that trauma drugs in fact do work (Cancer recovery) and fully sponsorship by Bristol Meyers Squib to symbolize that fact in a commercial way---and on the other hand seemingly implying that such drugs are both illegal and unhealthful.

Which Lance do I embrace??? The cancer survivor who now pitches drugs for Big Pharma for a big salary or the successful athlete defeating dozens of drug juiced top level athletes, yet denies using similar juice. I am confused by this contradiction of these positions taken by the 6-time TDF champ.

Is Lance a "demigod"?

Greg LeMond has discussed the matter personally with Lance and has concluded that Lance does indeed use illegal trauma dope. In the absence of a tearful confession, I would tend to believe Greg LeMond. He is a class act.

Or you can believe Emily O'Reily or Stephan Swart. Or you can consider Dr. Michele Ferrari's reputation---and why Lance is still his client and strong supporter.

Or you can wonder why Lance forgives David Miller & Richard Virenque, admitted dopers, yet cursed and harrassed harmless Filippo Simeoni---and insulted Filippo's wife. Filippo was forced to confess under oath at the Ferrari Trial. Why is Lance so frightened of the truth??

Or why Lance lambasted Richard Pound (WADA) for being biased and incompetent in his work against doping in his open letter early this year.

Lance is full of contradictions, but, on balance, seems to embrace drug addicted athletes much more than any fight against truth telling or doping compliance.

Is that the rationale behavior of a "clean athlete"?

I say no. More the actions of a drug salesman and user.

If the shoe fits?
 

bikeraph

New Member
Jan 16, 2004
26
0
1
1. Its usually impossible to catch someone doping.

2. All the riders assume some of the other guys are doping during a race.

3. Doesn't it make sense that if you know the other guy is doing it and won't get caught, then you had better do it as well if you want an even field? I know its cynical, but I think the system forces everyone to try what they think they can get away with. This absolutely includes Armstrong.

4. The UCI needs to develop tests that work, or stop worrying about testing altogether.
 

run_and_ride

New Member
Aug 6, 2004
47
0
0
Wow, looks like someone forgot to drink the "Worship Lance" Kool-Aid.

Nice post, I never cared for Kool Aid much myself.


Flyer said:
tamman2000 said:
No more absurd than you standing here and telling me that he has.

The bottom line is anyone who believes that without a doubt he is clean or believe without a doubt that he is dirty, is not making decisions based in facts...



Tamman 2000. Your point is noted.

But relying on a "truth telling theory/belief" should not be the only augument.

Reasonable conclusions may be drawn. There is plenty of information out there for those that care to follow the sport closely.

Sadly, the cicumstancial evidence/facts and the cycling peer doping echosystem that is all professional sport sits in stark contrast to your point.

We cannot, nor can UCI testers, prove that Lance is actively using high dosages of 1) anemia and renal failure drugs, 2) anabolic booster hormones such as insulin, Human Growth Hormone, IGF-1 as well as other anabolic cockrails 3) pain abatement drugs 4) stmulants for both training and racing 4) oral testerone easter eggs 5) blood transfusions or synthetic hemglobin, as needed, 6) saline feeds, as needed or 7) other adrenal function suppressors as needed.

Chiefly because, 1) no testin

g protocol exists for most of these powerful drugs--and because they are "transient in nature" and disappear quickly whilst leaving longlasting positive effects 2) Lance has medical certificates for some drugs for "therapeutic reasons", just ask Iban Mayo--he said so publicly this summer before the TDF, 3) masking protocols and agents can confuse samples. (saline feed to water down hematocrit level pre blood draw.

So depending upon testing won't prove much either way in this debate.

Really, the best information we have is from former employees, riders, and his own peer group. If Lance is not using chemo-recovery drugs now---why are his fellow competitors so commited to using them? (Please do not make me name the dozens of sad names, it is painful) Can you explain that?

Lance seems to be portayed as both a lone wolf and inigma--on one hand living proof that trauma drugs in fact do work (Cancer recovery) and fully sponsorship by Bristol Meyers Squib to symbolize that fact in a commercial way---and on the other hand seemingly implying that such drugs are both illegal and unhealthful.

Which Lance do I embrace??? The cancer survivor who now pitches drugs for Big Pharma for a big salary or the successful athlete defeating dozens of drug juiced top level athletes, yet denies using similar juice. I am confused by this contradiction of these positions taken by the 6-time TDF champ.

Is Lance a "demigod"?

Greg LeMond has discussed the matter personally with Lance and has concluded that Lance does indeed use illegal trauma dope. In the absence of a tearful confession, I would tend to believe Greg LeMond. He is a class act.

Or you can believe Emily O'Reily or Stephan Swart. Or you can consider Dr. Michele Ferrari's reputation---and why Lance is still his client and strong supporter.

Or you can wonder why Lance forgives David Miller & Richard Virenque, admitted dopers, yet cursed and harrassed harmless Filippo Simeoni---and insulted Filippo's wife. Filippo was forced to confess under oath at the Ferrari Trial. Why is Lance so frightened of the truth??

Or why Lance lambasted Richard Pound (WADA) for being biased and incompetent in his work against doping in his open letter early this year.

Lance is full of contradictions, but, on balance, seems to embrace drug addicted athletes much more than any fight against truth telling or doping compliance.

Is that the rationale behavior of a "clean athlete"?

I say no. More the actions of a drug salesman and user.

If the shoe fits?
 

tamman2000

New Member
Aug 3, 2004
89
0
0
run_and_ride said:
Wow, looks like someone forgot to drink the "Worship Lance" Kool-Aid.

Nice post, I never cared for Kool Aid much myself.
WTF does that mean? Are you calling me a lance worshiper? Go back a few pages in this discussion and read some of my posts.

I am not a lance worshiper, I just find it very frustrating that people condemn a man (any man) based on such faulty logic. He very well could be doping, and I wouldn't be supprised if someone found proof that he was, but at this point, anyone who says they know he dopes is extremely gullible fool who doesn't require much in the way of facts to establish beliefs.

FOR THE LAST TIME, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST TO MAKE THIS MISTAKE. MY ATTACKING BAD REASONING OF LANCE ACUSERS DOESN'T MEAN I THINK HE'S CLEAN! IT IS A BIG FALSE DICHOTOMY.
 

bikeraph

New Member
Jan 16, 2004
26
0
1
run_and_ride said:
Wow, looks like someone forgot to drink the "Worship Lance" Kool-Aid.

Nice post, I never cared for Kool Aid much myself.

Awesome!! Its nice to hear the voice of reason once in a while. I've never been into idol-worship, much less the false ones.
 

Frihed89

New Member
Dec 17, 2003
114
0
0
I don't think he has to. He has no need to be desperate; his natural abilities and training are supurb. My theory is that there is more doping on average at the lower end of the performance scale. Unfortunately, a very low percentage of doping riders are actually detected, so statistics on those caught can be misleading due to too few observations.
 

Similar threads