Do you think lance is doping? yes or no

[Chris_E]

Out of curiousity, do you contend that your "idol" (over there to the left, pictured in your avatar) rides clean? Just wondering.

the sad thing about it is i just don't know. if i were to take an educated guess i would say the consistancy of Ullrich's results, especially in the Tour, would imply that he is less likely to have doped than anyone else. However, one can never be certain.

I come from a football (soccer) background and personally know a number of pros and ex-pros. Experience has taught me that sportsmen of any persuation are the last people that need to be put on a pedistal.

No Ullrich isn't my idol his just my favourite. I like his demeanor, his flare and the way he rides when he's on song. If you like he's the kind of rider i would like have like to have been.

I have no particular axe to grind with Armstrong i just don't believe the natural talent/work ethic explanation for his success.

Of course this is just my opinion so chill.

 

[meehs]

the sad thing about it is i just don't know. if i were to take an educated guess i would say the consistancy of Ullrich's results, especially in the Tour, would imply that he is less likely to have doped than anyone else. However, one can never be certain.

I come from a football (soccer) background and personally know a number of pros and ex-pros. Experience has taught me that sportsmen of any persuation are the last people that need to be put on a pedistal.

No Ullrich isn't my idol his just my favourite. I like his demeanor, his flare and the way he rides when he's on song. If you like he's the kind of rider i would like have like to have been.

I have no particular axe to grind with Armstrong i just don't believe the natural talent/work ethic explanation for his success.

Of course this is just my opinion so chill.

It's cool, that's all I was asking for is your opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. I like Ullrich too for the same reasons that you like him. I'd like to see him win another TdF before he's done. Sorry I called him your "idol". I didn't even really think about it when I typed it and that was a little presumptuous of me. Didn't mean to be a dink.

FWIW: It's my opinion that most (if not all) of the top riders are using the same juice. I just think it's kind of funny that some people will point to one rider and call them a "doper" and a "cheat" but then they turn around and point to another rider, who is essentially riding at the same level and claim they're clean. That's all. I didn't mean to single you out in any way.

 

[House]

the sad thing about it is i just don't know. if i were to take an educated guess i would say the consistancy of Ullrich's results, especially in the Tour, would imply that he is less likely to have doped than anyone else. However, one can never be certain.

I come from a football (soccer) background and personally know a number of pros and ex-pros. Experience has taught me that sportsmen of any persuation are the last people that need to be put on a pedistal.

No Ullrich isn't my idol his just my favourite. I like his demeanor, his flare and the way he rides when he's on song. If you like he's the kind of rider i would like have like to have been.

I have no particular axe to grind with Armstrong i just don't believe the natural talent/work ethic explanation for his success.

Of course this is just my opinion so chill.

I like Ullrich as well, but simply looking at backgrounds I would say he is more likely to dope then Armstrong, having come up through the East German sports system. It would make more sense based on what we know now about it. I am not saying he is or did, just saying if I had to pick one of them it would be Ullrich.

 

[Chris_E]

I like Ullrich as well, but simply looking at backgrounds I would say he is more likely to dope then Armstrong, having come up through the East German sports system. It would make more sense based on what we know now about it. I am not saying he is or did, just saying if I had to pick one of them it would be Ullrich.

Well you never know. However, i that think (or hope against hope) Ullie, and Zarbel for that matter, were too young to have been on a state sposored drug programme given that the Berlin wall fell in 1989.

God the thought of a 13 or 14 year-old Ullrich on juice is frightening.

House i'm not niave enough to think that Ullich didn't or hasn't tampered. He was afterall one of the many riders a few years ago who suddley became asthmatic and had to used a steroid inhaler.

No as mentioned ealier in this thread Ullrich throughout his career from junoirs to U23 to pro, was considered a phenomenom. He won his tour at the first attempt at 23 and was beaten in the next 1 by a known doper. Then Armstrong came back and he hasn't had a look in since.

Ullie's palmares doesn't show any great spikes as Armstrong's does (for whatever reason). His consistancy, the fact that, apart from the Tour, his results HAVE matched his talent lead me to suggest he is LESS likely to be a doper than others.

I would like to believe that if Ullrich was on dope he would have won more than 1 tour by now.

Of couse concievably he could be using the junk just to stand still. A sobering thought no?

 

[House]

Well you never know. However, i that think (or hope against hope) Ullie, and Zarbel for that matter, were too young to have been on a state sposored drug programme given that the Berlin wall fell in 1989.

God the thought of a 13 or 14 year-old Ullrich on juice is frightening.

House i'm not niave enough to think that Ullich didn't or hasn't tampered. He was afterall one of the many riders a few years ago who suddley became asthmatic and had to used a steroid inhaler.

No as mentioned ealier in this thread Ullrich throughout his career from junoirs to U23 to pro, was considered a phenomenom. He won his tour at the first attempt at 23 and was beaten in the next 1 by a known doper. Then Armstrong came back and he hasn't had a look in since.

Ullie's palmares doesn't show any great spikes as Armstrong's does (for whatever reason). His consistancy, the fact that, apart from the Tour, his results HAVE matched his talent lead me to suggest he is LESS likely to be a doper than others.

I would like to believe that if Ullrich was on dope he would have won more than 1 tour by now.

Of couse concievably he could be using the junk just to stand still. A sobering thought no?

From what I read he entered the East German system at 14, which would have been 87 or 88. The sports system didn't just suddenly stop when the wall fell, so it is very plausible that those East German riders like Jan were in the system long enough to be doped. Plus the former coaches surely didn't just say "no more." Even if it was only a year or two, that's enough to learn what to do and what it does and decide to keep doing it. I have seen no proof of Jan doing anything and will make no accusations without any, just responding for info sake.

 

[Chris_E]

From what I read he entered the East German system at 14, which would have been 87 or 88. The sports system didn't just suddenly stop when the wall fell, so it is very plausible that those East German riders like Jan were in the system long enough to be doped. Plus the former coaches surely didn't just say "no more." Even if it was only a year or two, that's enough to learn what to do and what it does and decide to keep doing it. I have seen no proof of Jan doing anything and will make no accusations without any, just responding for info sake.

And herwithin lies the essence of this whole twardy debate. The very fact that we are discussing the merits of a riders (any riders) success based around the fact that he may or may not be doped is sad in the extreme.

All riders should be free from insinuation of any type, but of course there need for success and our need for them to be successful often dictates the extent they go to to achieve.

In the perfect world any artificial aid, be it performance or recovery enhancers, would be banned. However, in the world of sport as big business this is nothing more than a pipe dream.

Does Armstrong dope yes/no, did Ullrich yes/no? We can only speculate. But what is certain is the example they and others are setting for the youngsters (and i include Armstrong in this for his association with Farreri) who think the ONLY way to succeed is by using drugs, is nothing short of scandalous.

 

[brick654]

Someone said something to the effect that "No way would he use performance enhancers..." Oh, as much as winning seems to drive LA, I think he would in a heartbeat. And probably is. But not an illegal substance. In another vein, remember the TDF before last? LA was NOT the strongest rider in the race. His nemesis, big Jan probably was. But LA had the strongest team and JU didn't. The rest is history.

 

[mitosis]

...In another vein, ...

Is this intentional?

 

[Flyer]

Not so fast. You do not speak for me and I have cancer fighting, winning and losing experience. You are 100% wrong on your thesis. It does not apply universally to all cancer victims.

If you believe that a "win-at-all-cost' kid without any parental supervision, teamed with two adult coaches who advised daily injections, then 5 years later, partnering with infamous Michele Ferrari, then had high hCG hormones w/o detection, then got cancer, then decided to run back to Ferrari for an agressive recovery, suddenly and spontaneously STOPPED using anemia and other hormone boosters at the very time he decided to race bicycles professionally amongst hundreds of cancer-free and yet doped top athletes---then you are not connected to reality.

Not every person with cancer experience believes your position.

I can attest to cancer recovery patients eager to pursue their dreams in any way possible post-cancer.

Doping is considered necessary and rejuvinating to many people, including cancer-recovery patients.

Lance is one of them.


Mad that the sporting fraud and cancer exemption continues.

I don't even know if anyone will read this post but I have to throw my 2 cents worth in.2 years ago I lost my wife of 15 years to cancer.She fought hard for 1 1/2 years before the fight became too much for her.ANYONE & I MEAN ANYONE WHO HAS FAMILY OR FRIENDS THAT HAVE FOUGHT CANCER SUCCESSFULLY OR IS FIGHTING THE FIGHT NOW CAN ATTEST TO THE ABSOLUTE REFUSAL OF THESE PEOPLE TO PUT ANYTHING INTO THIER BODY THAT COULD ADD TO THE DISEASE OR CAUSE A RELAPSE OF THE CONDITION!IF YOU BELIEVE LANCE IS DOPING YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT!

 

[jhuskey]

Not so fast. You do not speak for me and I have cancer fighting, winning and losing experience. You are 100% wrong on your thesis. It does not apply universally to all cancer victims.

If you believe that a "win-at-all-cost' kid without any parental supervision, teamed with two adult coaches who advised daily injections, then 5 years later, partnering with infamous Michele Ferrari, then had high hCG hormones w/o detection, then got cancer, then decided to run back to Ferrari for an agressive recovery, suddenly and spontaneously STOPPED using anemia and other hormone boosters at the very time he decided to race bicycles professionally amongst hundreds of cancer-free and yet doped top athletes---then you are not connected to reality.

Not every person with cancer experience believes your position.

I can attest to cancer recovery patients eager to pursue their dreams in any way possible post-cancer.

Doping is considered necessary and rejuvinating to many people, including cancer-recovery patients.

Lance is one of them.


Mad that the sporting fraud and cancer exemption continues.

Yawn,yawn,yawn and the beat goes on.

 

[Flyer]

Try some Belgian Mix---you won't be yawning then.

Yawn,yawn,yawn and the beat goes on.

 

[jhuskey]

Try some Belgian Mix---you won't be yawning then.

Might help me but with all due respect to those that have posted sound debate on both sides, there is no hope for the "Dead Horse" that is this thread.

 

[MJtje]

This discussion is pretty dead......I've read alle sides of the story. I think everyone is smart enough to make there own opinion about doping now. Let's get back to racing........!!

Might help me but with all due respect to those that have posted sound debate on both sides, there is no hope for the "Dead Horse" that is this thread.

 

[wilmar13]

This discussion is pretty dead......I've read alle sides of the story. I think everyone is smart enough to make there own opinion about doping now. Let's get back to racing........!!

Go ahead and try to talk about road racing. It will be very lonely. Talk about doping, and you will not get anything of substance, but it will be 50 pages long and have 1000's of hits.

 

[Flyer]

I'll bet Lance knows more that Bo Jackson re: anabolic steroids, T/E tests, corticosteroids and especially about----Blood oxygenation methods.

Cancer, radiation, chemotherapy, aggressive fighting followed by aggressive recovery methods.

More than enough to get a job with any Big Pharma---and lots of stock options/grants from the Biotechnology field too.

Who better to ask about anemia? About recoverying from 'bustin your ass 6 hours a day' than Lance?

He's da man.

Now tell us which drugs, your doses per kilo, your mix, and your frequencies.

What the the secured web address for these data fields? We can already guess that the password is "Schumi"

Before 1999 who knew fightening cnacer was in fact the #1 way to create a TDF winning machine?

Go ahead and try to talk about road racing. It will be very lonely. Talk about doping, and you will not get anything of substance, but it will be 50 pages long and have 1000's of hits.

 

[teammiyata]

Before 1999 who knew fightening cnacer was in fact the #1 way to create a TDF winning machine?[/QUOTE]
Good point. I wonder if Coppi's concentration camp detainment helped him out overall. He got pretty damn skinny.

 

[Dead Star]

Before 1999 who knew fightening cnacer was in fact the #1 way to create a TDF winning machine?

Good point. I wonder if Coppi's concentration camp detainment helped him out overall. He got pretty damn skinny.[/QUOTE]

urrr, I thought it was a POW camp? and don't forget he was a prisoner of the allies!

 

[limerickman]

I like Ullrich as well, but simply looking at backgrounds I would say he is more likely to dope then Armstrong, having come up through the East German sports system. It would make more sense based on what we know now about it. I am not saying he is or did, just saying if I had to pick one of them it would be Ullrich.

Let me give you some background on Jan Ullrich.

Ullrich's talent as a cyclist was flagged very early on.
From his early teens, it was evident that JU had the ability to be a great talent.
A colleague of mine at Federation level tells the story of how he saw JU racing as an amateur in 1991. He was beating guys at his own level and guys several years older.

My younger brothers best friend raced against Ullrich in 1993/94, while representing Ireland at amateur level.
Every national team was aware of just how JU was - JU's reputation was already well established and he was unbeatable as an amateur.
Ullrich was pulverising the opposition.

In 1998, I asked Miguel Indurain about his retirement and he commented "I could see Jan Ullrich in my rear view mirror" meaning that he considered JU the next great champion.

I can't say whether JU dopes or not.

What I can say is that he's been consistent and he never miraculously "improved".
And he doesn't write books telling all and sundry that he is clean and works harder than every other professional, ever.

 

[Dead Star]

Very very true.

Let me give you some background on Jan Ullrich.

Ullrich's talent as a cyclist was flagged very early on.
From his early teens, it was evident that JU had the ability to be a great talent.
A colleague of mine at Federation level tells the story of how he saw JU racing as an amateur in 1991. He was beating guys at his own level and guys several years older.

My younger brothers best friend raced against Ullrich in 1993/94, while representing Ireland at amateur level.
Every national team was aware of just how JU was - JU's reputation was already well established and he was unbeatable as an amateur.
Ullrich was pulverising the opposition.

In 1998, I asked Miguel Indurain about his retirement and he commented "I could see Jan Ullrich in my rear view mirror" meaning that he considered JU the next great champion.

I can't say whether JU dopes or not.

What I can say is that he's been consistent and he never miraculously "improved".
And he doesn't write books telling all and sundry that he is clean and works harder than every other professional, ever.

 

[House]

Let me give you some background on Jan Ullrich.

Ullrich's talent as a cyclist was flagged very early on.
From his early teens, it was evident that JU had the ability to be a great talent.
A colleague of mine at Federation level tells the story of how he saw JU racing as an amateur in 1991. He was beating guys at his own level and guys several years older.

My younger brothers best friend raced against Ullrich in 1993/94, while representing Ireland at amateur level.
Every national team was aware of just how JU was - JU's reputation was already well established and he was unbeatable as an amateur.
Ullrich was pulverising the opposition.

In 1998, I asked Miguel Indurain about his retirement and he commented "I could see Jan Ullrich in my rear view mirror" meaning that he considered JU the next great champion.

I can't say whether JU dopes or not.

What I can say is that he's been consistent and he never miraculously "improved".
And he doesn't write books telling all and sundry that he is clean and works harder than every other professional, ever.

...and we all know Lance was never a great rider before cancer, never a great triathlete, never had a big engine, etc. You are making excuses. You want Lance to get busted for doping so you are willing to say anything because you have some sort of personal dislike for a man you don't even know. My comment about the East German system makes total sense and is based on actual logic, it's too bad you are too closed minded to see it.