Does anyone actually go a full hour to determine FTP?
- Thread starter ecandl
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I only do a full hour test outdoors and even then I prefer an actual TT for motivation. Indoors I just track my typical long intervals or occasionally do a 3 or 4 point Monod test with efforts at ~3,9,15 and 20 minutes.ecandl said:
-Dave
I did the full 1-hour test one-and-a-half times. It's tough to find a good route to do a full hour at threshold, nice not to have to change gears. And, like you, the thought of an hour straight in the garage at threshold gets my stomach muscles spasming. 20 minutes will be good enough for me from now on, the 95% rule seems to be right on in my case as well.
The 95% rule sounds familiar. Do you take your 20minute x 0.95 to get FTP? If that is right, that is the method for me. # x 20s seem to be reasonable for me, above that is soooo hard indoors. Maybe I will even try a couple of 30s this winter.Bikeridindude said:
That's right, 95% of 20 minute max power is usually a very close estimation of your 1-hour threshold. The important thing to me is to have a constant way to keep testing myself and comparing my power at different times of year. It doesn't matter if it's 20, 60, or 31 1/2 minutes. 20 minutes is a heck of a lot easier to incorporate into the regular training program then 60 minutes is. Just my own personal preference.ecandl said:
Last winter and spring, I made 60-90 minute time trial efforts on a trainer a large chunk of my training program. It became a lot easier mentally to do a 60 minute effort after a few weeks. Typically, I would start a few watts under the target and start ramping up around 20 minutes into the effort depending on how it was going. I thought it was great to have real 60 minute efforts as the basis for FTP.
just do your 20min intervals and estimate FTP... the training zones are like 40W wide so what is being ~5-10W off your FTP going to affect your training? i don't even really bother with FTP... i never do 1 hr intervals so why do i need to know what my 1hr power is? a rough estimate is all that's needed to set my training zones.
i do tonnes of 10min and 20min intervals so i think it's a good idea to know what intenesity i can be doing those intervals at, but 1hr power... for what? you can guage improvements just as well by testing a 20min or an average of 2x20 just as well as by doing a 1hr test... i really don't see any reason that anyone would need to know what their FTP is "very accurately" or to do a 1hr test... seems to me people are just using it to compare to others... if your major interest is training there is no reason i can see for this. but even if you want to compare.. why not just compare your 20min power? i don't know... i dont get it?
i do tonnes of 10min and 20min intervals so i think it's a good idea to know what intenesity i can be doing those intervals at, but 1hr power... for what? you can guage improvements just as well by testing a 20min or an average of 2x20 just as well as by doing a 1hr test... i really don't see any reason that anyone would need to know what their FTP is "very accurately" or to do a 1hr test... seems to me people are just using it to compare to others... if your major interest is training there is no reason i can see for this. but even if you want to compare.. why not just compare your 20min power? i don't know... i dont get it?
Be careful with 95% of 20 min. I believe it actually overestimates my FTP. During this season I have tested myself over different distances and have come to a conclusion that I'm slightly AWC enhanced (inverted V in the power profile chart). So much so that I think my anaerobic capacity plays a role in my 20 min efforts (I've been known to stick with some good climbers for 15-20 min). In fact, both the 95% method as well as 75% of MAP put me roughly at 260W FTP (I'm 55 kg, so cut me some slack 
). Unfortunately, a few races later (including a 1+ hr hillclimb) my power curve shows me at 245W NP for 1hr. I'm not too familiar with Monod, but I assume it would likewise not account for varying AWC between people. Then again, perhaps I just need to work on my pain threshold .
). Unfortunately, a few races later (including a 1+ hr hillclimb) my power curve shows me at 245W NP for 1hr. I'm not too familiar with Monod, but I assume it would likewise not account for varying AWC between people. Then again, perhaps I just need to work on my pain threshold .
Good question by the OP.
I did one one-hour FTP test on the KK last winter, and I'm sure not looking forward to doing it again once it gets cold and snowy outside.
I like the 20 minute suggestions. I think I'll do that, or maybe 30 minutes. And if I start to really really like it, maybe a 60 minutes at some point. But I doubt it.
I did one one-hour FTP test on the KK last winter, and I'm sure not looking forward to doing it again once it gets cold and snowy outside.
I like the 20 minute suggestions. I think I'll do that, or maybe 30 minutes. And if I start to really really like it, maybe a 60 minutes at some point. But I doubt it.
Actually, that's exactly what the Monod CP curves do best. They fit a curve that yields your AWC and Critical Power(CP) that allows you to figure out things like how your 3, 5, 10, 20, 45 or 60 minute(or any other but it's most accurate for times roughly in that range) power relates to your FTP and vice versa. Check out this link: http://www.velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf it's useful if you want to do things like estimate your best pacing for a TT that you expect to ride in a certain time. For instance if you have recent validated CP Monod curve numbers and you expect to pace a 15 km flat TT in ~ 23 minutes it'll give you a pretty good idea what power you should be able to hold for that time based on your AWC and CP.Piotr said:
-Dave
P.S. Monod curves also show why 95% of 20 minute doesn't work for everybody as you've found out. I'm the opposite and my 20 minute power is roughly 98% of my FTP based on Monod curves and real world time trial results. Three percent may not sound like much but for my high point 20 minute power of 310 watts this season it's the difference between an FTP of 295 and 304 watts. Not a big deal for setting training levels but I used that info to pace a 40km TT and I'm glad I didn't try to limit myself to 295 watts for the early going.
I used to buy into that 95% of 20 minute number for threshold power. Didn't take long though to see that it was a big overestimate of power, for me at least. My guess is that if you have lots of anerobic capability, then that 95% x 20m gives you too high a number.
Going for one hour straight is a tough one. I mean it would be nice to find a road or course where you could avoid stopping or playing around with gears too much. Then again if you go up a mountain, that seems to make sense except you seem to get weaker as the altitude increases.
If you do those 15-30 minute threshold interval workouts, that might give you some clue at least.
Going for one hour straight is a tough one. I mean it would be nice to find a road or course where you could avoid stopping or playing around with gears too much. Then again if you go up a mountain, that seems to make sense except you seem to get weaker as the altitude increases.
If you do those 15-30 minute threshold interval workouts, that might give you some clue at least.
many answers to be found here: http://cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/doctorSpoc said:
But I guess you know all those already...
I agree it's no point worrying about a watt or two or three when it comes to FTP. In fact, I'd suggest always rounding to the nearest 5W to help avoid obsessing about it too much.
In general though for TSS/PMC it IS important to have firstly a consistent FTP method and secondly an accurate one. It's always good to compare training loads apples to apples and if your FTP is 10% different from anothers purely because of the way you determine it ... well that could lead to differences around 20% in TSS (and PMC). That's because of the ^2 factor in TSS of course.
As far as actual workouts go, I agree: do what you can with the training level %'s as non-prescriptive guidelines.
To the OP: i seldom do full-on hour tests in a state of training fatigue conducive to setting FTP. Since training with power from 2002 onwards, I've established a consistent pattern that my indoor 30MP equals outdoor FTP. So I normally set it from those workouts. Outdoors the terrain is pretty variable so I tend to look at NP for long efforts to make sure FTP is really 'there'.
Thanks for all of the information. I don't feel so bad about not wanting to go for a full hour. I think I will test using 20s, maybe 30s, and just use 95% for a rough estimate. I am actually getting excited to get the KK dusted off and to do some testing. I am hoping for some nice improvement as I get started on my 2nd year of training/racing.
Thanks Dave. I actually skimmed through that pdf file recently, but decided to wait for the start of the new training season to do the testing. My current season ends with a little hillclimb on 10/13.daveryanwyoming said:
i agree that your method of determining FTP should be consistant... as long as you do that i think you are ok. i think it depends on how you use PMC... i look to PMC for trends, i don't look to it for absolute values, so a consistant method of determining FTP is important and accuracy is not as important for me. that said, i think you can easily get in the 5W ball park without actually doing a 1 hr test and if you test consistantly your differential should always be the same so up/down trends track as they should... i really like the MONOD method a lot since you can easily grab that data from typical workouts and racing... i don't like to over think this stuff too much. am i improving? what's my fitness level? what's my training volume? these are the questions that are important to me and they can be easily answered as long as your FTP determining metodology is consistant and FTP is in the ballpark...rmur17 said:
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