Does Mother Nature Really Know Best?

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by kathy37, Mar 7, 2004.

  1. kathy37

    kathy37 Guest

    You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

    It's almost hilarious.

    A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
    occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
    across Austrailia & this is her report.

    I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.
     
    Tags:


  2. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).
    >
    > It's almost hilarious.
    >
    > A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
    > occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
    > across Austrailia & this is her report.
    >
    > I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.
    >

    Most entertaining.

    http://journalism.uts.edu.au/subjects/oj1/oj1_a2002/natural-
    _therapies/patien tagainst.html

    or

    http://tinyurl.com/2odya

    --Rich
     
  3. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Why can you not type in a URL with webTV? It is only text or
    is there certain letters you cannot type?

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    3137.bay.webtv.net...
    >
    > You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).
    >
    > It's almost hilarious.
    >
    > A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
    > occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
    > across Austrailia & this is her report.
    >
    > I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.
     
  4. Wb

    Wb Guest

    On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 09:09:20 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

    >You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).

    Maybe you should get a real computer.

    Just a suggestion.
    --

    Take out the G'RBAGE for private replies.
    [email protected]
     
  5. tobyjones

    tobyjones Guest

    [email protected] wrote: [below this reply]

    Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health" can
    only be understood in the context of that which they are
    "alternative" to.

    And there, the actual physical harm arises, not excluding
    death. And yes, this is my own personal and family
    experience.

    I would not have chosen for the discussion to lead in that
    direction. It is the choice of the above poster. I assure
    you, any such discussion will not be "hilarious".

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]... You
    >should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).
    >
    > It's almost hilarious.

    --
    -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
    Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
     
  6. kathy37

    kathy37 Guest

    Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice of words?

    Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
    Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative reporters?

    I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going to
    Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her last one)
    just touch the tips of her fingers & then tell her what
    additional supplements she needs.. Naturally, they also sell
    them , though she has gotten a little (monetarily) smarter &
    now buys them by mail order. A good idea since she's
    currently takes over 20 pills daily.
     
  7. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] wrote: [below this reply]
    >
    > Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health" can
    > only be understood in the context of that which they are
    > "alternative" to.

    I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
    complex and dangerous environment can make serious mistakes,
    and don't always practice to a high standard, and some of
    their treatments for serious or disabling illnesses can have
    serious side effects, then it is quite OK for naturopathic
    medicine to be ridiculous.

    I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients for
    conditions that don't exist with methods that don't do
    anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.

    The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
    medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that there
    are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on exactly the same
    folk (nearly all those who use alt also use normal doctors)
    and who are constantly weeding out and accepting
    responsibility for treating the more seriously ill in the
    same population of individuals. Naturopaths and other alt
    practitioners NEVER acknowledge the extent to which they are
    practicising in a very highly selected and protected
    environment. They never even have to get out of bed in the
    middle of the night.

    They also have the luxury of not having to take
    responsibility for anything they do. It was a naturopath, I
    think, that got away with missing a diagnosis leading to
    death because naturopaths are not regarded as having the
    expertise needed to make such diagnoses.

    Peter Moran
     
  8. Anth

    Anth Guest

    The vast majority of healthcare is just making people
    feel good - you can get that from mainstream or the other
    side. Anth

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    3136.bay.webtv.net...
    > Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice of
    > words?
    >
    > Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
    > Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative reporters?
    >
    > I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going to
    > Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her last
    > one) just touch the tips of her fingers & then tell her
    > what additional supplements she needs.. Naturally, they
    > also sell them , though she has gotten a little
    > (monetarily) smarter & now buys them by mail order. A good
    > idea since she's currently takes over 20 pills daily.
     
  9. Wb

    Wb Guest

    On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:58:24 -0000, "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The vast majority of healthcare is just making people
    >feel good - you can get that from mainstream or the other
    >side. Anth

    sci.med.cannabis

    agrees with your assertion.
    --
    WB

    "I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
    -Yoshimo
     
  10. Kim

    Kim Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).
    >
    ===========================
    Which site? You didn't include an URL.

    Kim
     
  11. tobyjones

    tobyjones Guest

    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:20040307145920.562$ag_-
    > [email protected]
    > > [email protected] wrote: [below this reply]
    > >
    > > Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health"
    > > can only be understood in the context of that which they
    > > are "alternative" to.
    >
    > I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
    > complex and dangerous environment can make serious
    > mistakes, and don't always practice to a high standard,
    > and some of their treatments for serious or disabling
    > illnesses can have serious side effects, then it is quite
    > OK for naturopathic medicine to be ridiculous.

    No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
    "system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
    system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to be
    asked as to how and why the situation arose.

    > I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients
    > for conditions that don't exist with methods that don't do
    > anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.

    If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could be
    worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article, is
    hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are many
    such which paint an entirely different picture.

    > The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
    > medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
    > there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on exactly
    > the same folk (nearly all those who use alt also use
    > normal doctors) and who are constantly weeding out and
    > accepting responsibility for treating the more seriously
    > ill in the same population of individuals.

    I agree that where there is a possibility that the person
    seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually presenting
    with symptoms of a more serious illness, then a certified
    medical diagnosis should be the place to begin.

    And also, that for serious, critical and advanced conditions
    which are treatable, then the person should be referred to a
    physician in the first instance. (However the choice to
    follow through with such treatment, in most cases, remains
    the right and responsibility of the patient.)

    I also agree that the presence of the Medical System, with
    its professional standards of care and accountability, does
    "take the weight" from NDs and others, allowing them to work
    in a much lighter environment than would be the case if
    there were no Med System.

    Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up and
    work with are casualties from weaknesses within that system.

    > Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER acknowledge
    > the extent to which they are practicising in a very highly
    > selected and protected environment.

    You might be surprised if you went around your own home
    town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those who
    were fully trained, qualified and registered Naturopathic
    Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners within TCM. If
    you were to discuss the matter with them, I think that at
    least some would agree with you.

    > They never even have to get out of bed in the middle of
    > the night.

    Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed. And in
    cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have to schedule
    their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up when they can.

    > They also have the luxury of not having to take
    > responsibility for anything they do. It was a naturopath,
    > I think, that got away with missing a diagnosis leading to
    > death because naturopaths are not regarded as having the
    > expertise needed to make such diagnoses.

    If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would ask,
    what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who lost their
    jobs and in some cases their career when trying to speak out
    against ongoing abuses within Sutherland (?) Hospital in
    Sydney not too long ago?

    --
    -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
    Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
     
  12. David Wright

    David Wright Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Anth <[email protected]> wrote:
    >The vast majority of healthcare is just making people feel
    >good - you can get that from mainstream or the other side.

    That's quite true -- and it's one reason that so many alt
    practitioners "get results." There are so many people who
    just want to be listened to, including the "worried well."

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)


    ><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >3136.bay.webtv.net...
    >> Maybe "appalled" should have been a better choice
    >> of words?
    >>
    >> Can you imagine all those people those 25 "Naturopathic
    >> Doctors" see very day who are NOT investigative
    >> reporters?
    >>
    >> I have a sister-in-law in Los Angeles who's been going
    >> to Naturopathic Doctors for years. The current (& her
    >> last one) just touch the tips of her fingers & then
    >> tell her what additional supplements she needs..
    >> Naturally, they also sell them , though she has gotten
    >> a little (monetarily) smarter & now buys them by mail
    >> order. A good idea since she's currently takes over 20
    >> pills daily.
    >
     
  13. kathy37

    kathy37 Guest

    It's not all harmless. Several years ago, that same sister-in-
    law's husband went into a diabetic coma at work within a
    week after her (now former) Naturopathic Doctor strongly
    recommended weaning him off of insulin & onto a high volume
    vitamin/supplement regimen (he had been on insulin for
    almost 60 years since a youngster with that never once
    happening).

    Unfortunately, in the ambulance ride to the hospital, he
    also suffered a stroke. Though the (medical) doctors pulled
    him through & he came back to a certain extent for a year
    with much rehabilitation, his health eventually deteriorated
    & he was bedridden for the last 2 years of his life.

    I should mention that immediately prior to this incident &
    even with this serious- though-controllable condition, he
    worked full-time (as a technical writer), rode his bike
    back & forth to work every day (almost 20 miles total) for
    years, & in the two previous summers biked from Los Angeles
    to San Francisco & back just for a lark...& the guy was 68
    years old! So he was living with his diabetes rather well
    at that point.

    I've since learned that it isn't all that unusual for
    naturopathic practitioners to try to get diabetics off
    insulin & onto "natural" remedies. Although I don't know the
    current status of this particular case, there was a
    Naturopathic Doctor criminally charged in either North or
    South Carolina in the death of a diabetic young girl for
    doing just that.
     
  14. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Sounds like a quack to me. why would a ND bother to
    interfere with a long term solution unless this patient
    wanted off real badly.

    Just like the chem/cut doctors, 50% of them graduated at the
    bottom half of their class.

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    3137.bay.webtv.net...
    > It's not all harmless. Several years ago, that same sister-in-
    > law's husband went into a diabetic coma at work within a
    > week after her (now former) Naturopathic Doctor strongly
    > recommended weaning him off of insulin & onto a high
    > volume vitamin/supplement regimen (he had been on insulin
    > for almost 60 years since a youngster with that never once
    > happening).
    >
    > Unfortunately, in the ambulance ride to the hospital, he
    > also suffered a stroke. Though the (medical) doctors
    > pulled him through & he came back to a certain extent for
    > a year with much rehabilitation, his health eventually
    > deteriorated & he was bedridden for the last 2 years of
    > his life.
    >
    > I should mention that immediately prior to this incident &
    > even with this serious- though-controllable condition, he
    > worked full-time (as a technical writer), rode his bike
    > back & forth to work every day (almost 20 miles total) for
    > years, & in the two previous summers biked from Los
    > Angeles to San Francisco & back just for a lark...& the
    > guy was 68 years old! So he was living with his diabetes
    > rather well at that point.
    >
    > I've since learned that it isn't all that unusual for
    > naturopathic practitioners to try to get diabetics off
    > insulin & onto "natural" remedies. Although I don't know
    > the current status of this particular case, there was a
    > Naturopathic Doctor criminally charged in either North or
    > South Carolina in the death of a diabetic young girl for
    > doing just that.
     
  15. Bew

    Bew Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > You should Google this site (I can't do links with WebTV).
    >
    > It's almost hilarious.
    >
    > A Readers Digest woman reporter (without identifying her
    > occupation) went to 25 different Naturopathic "doctors"
    > across Austrailia & this is her report.
    >
    > I suspect the U. S. situation wouldn't be much different.
    >

    Must like your mind -- blank
     
  16. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Geeez. Funny how the chem/cut doctors don't seem to go to
    prison for the 10,000 deaths from transfusion errors per
    year in the USA. The other 100,000 mdical errors causing
    deaths are unheard of too..

    A Naturopath makes an error (it was stated as manslaughter)
    and lookee what happens.

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    3137.bay.webtv.net...
    > Update on the Naturopath, Laurence Perry.
    >
    > He was convicted (involuntary manslaughter) in the death
    > of "Rosie", an 8 year old diabetic girl (died Oct. 1999)
    > last spring. He received a 12 to 15 month prison term.
    > Particulars are in the Ashville, NC on-line newspaper.
     
  17. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:20040307145920.562$ag_-
    > > [email protected]
    > > > [email protected] wrote: [below this reply]
    > > >
    > > > Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt health"
    > > > can only be understood in the context of that which
    > > > they are "alternative" to.
    > >
    > > I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
    > > complex and dangerous environment can make serious
    > > mistakes, and don't always practice to a high standard,
    > > and some of their treatments for serious
    or
    > > disabling illnesses can have serious side effects, then
    > > it is quite OK for naturopathic medicine to be
    > > ridiculous.
    >
    > No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
    > "system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
    > system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to be
    > asked as to how and why the situation arose.
    >
    Many factors feed into that, including unrealistic
    expectations of medical care, ubiquitous hype, and the fact
    that health care consumption always reaches out to consume
    the supply regardless of efficacy (health economists say).
    Since patients who use alternative medicine also use
    doctors, and mostly express satisfaction with their medical
    care in surveys, the implication that it is all due to the
    failings of conventional medicine is false. Some is.

    > > I suggest it is only OK when they are treating patients
    > > for conditions that don't exist with methods that don't
    > > do anything much, as is amply demonstrated here.
    >
    > If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could
    > be worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article, is
    > hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are many
    > such which paint an entirely different picture.
    >
    She may be exagerating littel, but it is in accord with my
    own experience. We see the work of "alternative"
    pracititioners too, you know.

    > > The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
    > > medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
    > > there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on
    > > exactly the same folk (nearly all those who use alt
    > > also use normal doctors) and who are constantly weeding
    > > out and
    accepting
    > > responsibility for treating the more seriously ill in
    > > the same
    population
    > > of individuals.
    >
    > I agree that where there is a possibility that the person
    > seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually
    > presenting with symptoms of a more serious illness, then a
    > certified medical diagnosis should be the place to begin.
    >
    > And also, that for serious, critical and advanced
    > conditions which are treatable, then the person should be
    > referred to a physician in the first instance. (However
    > the choice to follow through with such treatment, in most
    > cases, remains the right and responsibility of the
    > patient.)
    >
    Agreed, although it is frustrating to see so much that
    is dubious, unproven or utter nonsense influencing such
    decisions. It seems every week or so I hear of someone
    rejecting sound medical advice in favour of Hulda
    Clark's nonsense.

    > I also agree that the presence of the Medical System,
    > with its
    professional
    > standards of care and accountability, does "take the
    > weight" from NDs and others, allowing them to work in a
    > much lighter environment than would be the case if there
    > were no Med System.
    >
    > Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up
    > and work with are casualties from weaknesses within
    > that system.
    >
    > > Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER
    > > acknowledge the extent to which they are practicising in
    > > a very highly selected and protected environment.
    >
    > You might be surprised if you went around your own home
    > town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those
    > who were fully trained, qualified and registered
    > Naturopathic Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners
    > within TCM. If you were to discuss the matter with them, I
    > think that at least some would agree with you.

    I am sure you are right. We tend to be a little
    overinfluenced by more the extreme views that dominate the
    Internet and chat scene.

    >
    > > They never even have to get out of bed in the middle of
    > > the night.
    >
    > Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed. And
    > in cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have to
    > schedule their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up when
    > they can.
    >
    > > They also have the luxury of not having to take
    > > responsibility for anything they do. It was a
    > > naturopath, I think, that got away with missing a
    > > diagnosis leading to death because naturopaths are not
    regarded
    > > as having the expertise needed to make such diagnoses.
    >
    > If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would
    > ask, what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who lost
    > their jobs and in some cases their career when trying to
    > speak out against ongoing abuses within Sutherland (?)
    > Hospital in Sydney not too long ago?

    I was not talking about avoiding responsibility. I was
    talking about practicing medicine without having to assume
    full responsibility for outcomes.

    Regards

    Peter Moran
     
  18. Rich.

    Rich. Guest

    On 08 Mar 2004 07:26:48 GMT, [email protected] (Jan) wrote:

    >
    >I was treated for mercury poisoning from amalgams and I am
    >alive and well. That is what is demonstrated here.

    Oh really. Well I will post Jan's history in her OWN WORDS
    and allow the readers to decide whether this pathologic liar
    had mercury poisoning from amalgams. Don't mind Jan. She is
    obsessed with the delusion that she almost died from mercury
    poisoning due to her amalgams even though her history
    suggests otherwise. Her history is as follows: (Note: Jan
    has accused me of lying about it but when repeatedly asked
    about what I lied about she remains silent).

    The facts according to Jan Drew:

    1) She was diagnosed with peripheral neuropathy

    2) She was put on Elavil and Neurontin which Jan reports
    significantly improved her symptoms

    3) She was told by her MD that they did not know what
    caused her peripheral neuropathy

    4) For a year Jan searched for a reason for her PN

    5) She discovered a possible cause for her PN after reading
    a book by Hulda Clark author of A Cure For All Cancers
    (Hulda believes that ALL cancer is caused by a liver
    fluke and that she can cure all cancers by a combination
    of a "zapper" and a course of herbs/supplements and
    proper nutrition)

    6) Jan became convinced after doing research that she
    indeed likely had mercury poisoning from the amalgams.

    7) Jan noticed a rapid and progressive deterioration in
    her health that resulted in her believing that she was
    going to die.

    8) On June 17, 1999 Jan had a quarter of her amalgams
    removed by Dr. Frank Jerome, author of Tooth Truth. Dr.
    Frank, dentist believes that mercury amalgams cause a
    wide variety of health problems and much of his practice
    involves removing amalgams and replacing them with
    composites, a procedure that Jan Drew underwent.

    >On June 17, 1999 Jan posted to usenet:
    >
    >>I have peripheral neuropathy, and have been searching for
    >>a cause for over a year. I have read Hulda Clark's books
    >>where she mentions the mercury problem. I am only 35 miles
    >>from the dentist who sh is speaking with in her book. Dr.
    >>Frank Jerome, who has written "Tooth Truth", a very
    >>enlightening book. I had my first appointment today and
    >>1/4 of my mouth is now mercury free. I go back tomorrow to
    >>get another 1/4 done. Later, I will get my only root canal
    >>pulled. I truly beleive this is the cause of my problems.
    >>If you have a condition that the doctors can't find, it is
    >>wise to suspect the teeth.
    >>
    >>Thanks Again,
    >>
    >>Jan

    9) On June 18, 1999 had more of her amalgams removed and
    reported on usenet ON THE VERY SAME DAY that she had the
    amalgams removed within HOURS of their removal that she
    felt better than she had in TWO YEARS!!

    >Here are her exact words posted on June 18th, 1999 to
    >usenet
    >
    >>I have been reading this thread. I have peripheral
    >>neuropathy. I have found a dentist (alternative) who knows
    >>that mercury amalgams are very dangerous. They can cause
    >>all manner of things. He will remove them and put in
    >>composities. I have just had 3/4 of mine remover. The
    >>others will come out in a few weeks, along with the one
    >>root canal, which will be extracted. If an individual has
    >>read on this subject and is knowledgable, he will take
    >>care of you. He has written "Tooth Truth and tells it like
    >>it is. He tells how the ADA has covered up this problem.
    >>So, it is just a matter of finding the right dentist. He
    >>has people flying in from all over to get the work done. I
    >>believe the mercury is the cause of my problems. I hav
    >>felt better today that I have in the last 2 years, and am
    >>looking forward to getting the rest of the mercury out and
    >>the root canal pulled. Jan

    10) When Jan was asked how she could feel better than she
    had in two years she said that it was because she felt
    relief that ALL the amalgams had been removed and that
    her bill was paid off. This was clearly a LIE since Jan
    still had some amalgams left and according to her would
    not have them out for another few weeks.

    Here are her exact words:

    >Rich for the LAST time, I said I felt better than I had
    >in two years. That was very true. I had been very very
    >ill and my health was deteriorating fast. After much
    >reading and research I was convinced it was my teeth. I
    >wasn't absolutely positivity 100% sure, but it all fit
    >together and I knew I had to do something. It wasn't
    >easy, what if it didn't work? That was very stressful.
    >Finally all the work was done, the metal was out, the
    >bill was paid, I didn't have to sit in the dentist chairs
    >for hours with a rubber dam in my mouth!!!!!!!!!! Of
    >course I was very relieved. A big big burden was lifted.
    >That makes one FEEL BETTER.
    >
    >What's so hard to understand?

    11) Jan posted on sci.med.dentisty that she knew that it was
    the amalgams that were causing her health problem
    because she began to regain her health AFTER her mercury
    began to drop. This is also a complete lie since she
    experience this improvement, better than she had felt in
    two years, within hours of having some of the amalgams
    removed and NOT when she had them all removed which she
    claims above.

    12) Jan claims that I told some lies when I provided the
    above history.

    13) Repeated attempts to ask Jan Drew what lies I told
    result in her refusing to answer and instead diverting
    the topic by personal insults and belittling.

    AFAIK the above is true and is based upon Jan Drew's own
    account of her history.

    Discussion (OPINION):

    The most likely explanation IMO for Jan Drew's improvement
    to the point where she felt better than she had in two years
    (which btw is VERY significant since she reports and rapid
    decline in health in the months prior to the removal of the
    amalgams) are psychologic factors.

    I believe that the deterioration in her health was largely
    due to her worrying and obsessing about her being poisoned
    by mercury due to buying into the idea that the amalgams
    were causing her health problems. I also believe that the
    improvement in her health was largely due to her relief that
    she finally was getting rid of what she believed was causing
    her problem. IOW I believe that Jan Drew is an excellent
    example of the power of placebo and that her history is
    consistent with psychologic factors affecting physical
    illness although I recommend competent health professional
    to evaluate her for a more definitive opinion.

    I have no doubt that her mercury level is declining. After
    all she had all her amalgams removed. The question is
    whether at the highest level was the mercury level causing
    any significant health problems for Jan Drew. Jan certainly
    believes that it was. Her history, IMO, strongly suggests
    otherwise.

    I predict that Jan will respond to this post in one of the
    following:

    14)She will ignore it and put me in her kill file
    15) She will snip most of what I say and accuse me of lying
    without specifically saying what I lied about
    16) She will divert from the topic by accusing me of various
    things including but not limited to a)hiking in the nude
    b) using her parents to belittle her, c)being obsessed
    with her, d) calling me a Jew-boy, pervert or some other
    creative insult from Jan "it is NEVER right to belittle"
    Drew. Perhaps she will wish some disability on me.

    What she will NOT do is

    17) Discuss the subject in a reasonable fashion
    18) Point out any lies that she continues to accuse me of

    What she will likely end up doing is violating two of the
    Ten Commandments:

    19) Thou shalt not lie (she does this when she accuses me of
    lying with respect to her history as I provided it WITH
    direct citations from Jan)

    20) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
    (again doing this by accusing me of various things such
    as lying and/or stalking).

    And finally if you have unanswered health problems my
    suggestion is to NOT take the advice of Jan Drew. And if you
    are foolish enough to listen to her please don't say that I
    did not warn you.

    Aloha,

    Rich

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance
     
  19. tobyjones

    tobyjones Guest

    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >
    > > > > Any discussion as to inadequacies within "alt
    > > > > health" can only be understood in the context of
    > > > > that which they are "alternative" to.
    > > >
    > > > I see your logic. If doctors practising in a much more
    > > > complex and dangerous environment can make serious
    > > > mistakes, and don't always practice to a high
    > > > standard, and some of their treatments for serious or
    > > > disabling illnesses can have serious side effects,
    > > > then it is quite OK for naturopathic medicine to be
    > > > ridiculous.
    > >
    > > No, that is not what I was saying. Rather, that if one
    > > "system" (although it is most certainly not a cohesive
    > > system) is to be ridiculed, then the question needs to
    > > be asked as to how and why the situation arose.
    > >
    > Many factors feed into that, including unrealistic
    > expectations of medical care, ubiquitous hype, and the
    > fact that health care consumption always reaches out to
    > consume the supply regardless of efficacy (health
    > economists say). Since patients who use alternative
    > medicine also use doctors, and mostly express satisfaction
    > with their medical care in surveys, the implication that
    > it is all due to the failings of conventional medicine is
    > false. Some is.

    I had not intended to make such implication. What I am
    saying is that in order to understand the c.a.m "system"
    (that word doesn't suit) - that it needs to be understood
    within the entire health context, which includes the general
    Med system. And also, within the context of the way that it
    (am/cam) has grown into what it is now, over the last 20+
    years or so.

    > > > I suggest it is only OK when they are treating
    > > > patients for conditions that don't exist with methods
    > > > that don't do anything much, as is amply demonstrated
    > > > here.
    > >
    > > If you were citing a study to that effect, then it could
    > > be worth considering. Heresay, via a magazine article,
    > > is hardly "ample demonstration". Or if it is, there are
    > > many such which paint an entirely different picture.
    > >
    > She may be exagerating littel, but it is in accord with my
    > own experience. We see the work of "alternative"
    > pracititioners too, you know.

    If you ever, in some moment of unforgivable weakness,
    should hope to understand the alt health phenomenon a
    little better, then you will need to learn to place
    such experiences _within the context of the entire
    health system_.

    As long as you separate them off in their own mind and view
    them as a single unit, all deserving of scorn or contempt to
    varying extents, then that puts an unnecessary block in the
    way to understanding either individuals who turn to such
    methods, or the situation in which they exist.

    > > > The only thing that makes naturopathic and other alt
    > > > medicine safe, to the extent that it is safe, is that
    > > > there are proper doctors doing diagnostic work on
    > > > exactly the same folk (nearly all those who use alt
    > > > also use normal doctors) and who are constantly
    > > > weeding out and accepting responsibility for treating
    > > > the more seriously ill in the same population of
    > > > individuals.
    > >
    > > I agree that where there is a possibility that the
    > > person seeking specific "alt" health advice is actually
    > > presenting with symptoms of a more serious illness, then
    > > a certified medical diagnosis should be the place to
    > > begin.
    > >
    > > And also, that for serious, critical and advanced
    > > conditions which are treatable, then the person should
    > > be referred to a physician in the first instance.
    > > (However the choice to follow through with such
    > > treatment, in most cases, remains the right and
    > > responsibility of the patient.)
    > >
    > Agreed, although it is frustrating to see so much that is
    > dubious, unproven or utter nonsense influencing such
    > decisions. It seems every week or so I hear of someone
    > rejecting sound medical advice in favour of Hulda Clark's
    > nonsense.

    In 'real life'?

    or on the 'Net?

    > > I also agree that the presence of the Medical System,
    > > with its professional standards of care and
    > > accountability, does "take the weight" from NDs and
    > > others, allowing them to work in a much lighter
    > > environment than would be the case if there were no Med
    > > System.
    > >
    > > Conversely, however, some of the cases that NDs pick up
    > > and work with are casualties from weaknesses within that
    > > system.
    > >
    > > > Naturopaths and other alt practitioners NEVER
    > > > acknowledge the extent to which they are practicising
    > > > in a very highly selected and protected environment.
    > >
    > > You might be surprised if you went around your own home
    > > town, for example, and talked to some of them - to those
    > > who were fully trained, qualified and registered
    > > Naturopathic Practitioners, Herbalists, or practitioners
    > > within TCM. If you were to discuss the matter with them,
    > > I think that at least some would agree with you.
    >
    > I am sure you are right. We tend to be a little
    > overinfluenced by more the extreme views that dominate the
    > Internet and chat scene.

    I am totally serious. It could be an enriching experience
    to actually interact i.r.l with alt practitioners, or at
    least, to discuss some of the questions and issues with
    those people within the Med System, doctors or nurses, who
    are already including aspects of alt treatments in their
    own approach.

    > > > They never even have to get out of bed in the middle
    > > > of the night.
    > >
    > > Not exactly true. Some do remain on call when needed.
    > > And in cases such as home-birth midwives, they may have
    > > to schedule their own "sleeping hours" just to catch up
    > > when they can.
    > >
    > > > They also have the luxury of not having to take
    > > > responsibility for anything they do. It was a
    > > > naturopath, I think, that got away with missing a
    > > > diagnosis leading to death because naturopaths are not
    > > > regarded as having the expertise needed to make such
    > > > diagnoses.
    > >
    > > If we are talking avoiding responsibility, then I would
    > > ask, what are your thoughts regarding the nurses who
    > > lost their jobs and in some cases their career when
    > > trying to speak out against ongoing abuses within
    > > Sutherland (?) Hospital in Sydney not too long ago?
    >
    > I was not talking about avoiding responsibility. I was
    > talking about practicing medicine without having to assume
    > full responsibility for outcomes.

    You call kinesiology, for example, "practicing medicine"?

    I had thought that the referred-to hospital-nurses case
    illustrates that if there are those within the system who
    wish to avoid assuming full responsibility (or any
    responsibility) then they will find a way to do so.

    As well, I think it is more difficult for an alt
    practitioner to avoid accountability in a certain sense, as,
    they have to build their own credibility. If a GP loses a
    few patients, it can all be explained, one way or another.
    If treatment by an alt were to result in a few severe
    reactions, let alone a death, in any small town that I know
    of, - they would probably lose everyone. (imo)

    --
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