Does the "Hawthorn Effect" Apply to Cycling Training?

[RapDaddyo]

I have been pondering the question of whether to use a coach as I approach what I think is my potential with a "casually designed" (by me, aka "Bozo") training program. As I consider the benefits of working with a coach via analysis of power meter files and dialogue, I see two potential benefits. The most obvious benefit is a training program better-suited to me and my capabilities, available time, etc. The other potential benefit, which I have seen no discussion of in this forum, is what I will call (based on my training) the "Hawthorn Effect." This is basically the improved performance of individuals or groups due to being observed. It was a classic case study at the graduate business school I attended. http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/history/hawthorne.html. Does anyone have either any evidence or an opinion on performance gains in cycling training due to the "Hawthorn Effect?"

 

[frenchyge]

I could see the following benefits of coaching possibly being interpreted as components of the Hawthorn Effect (not to detract from the expertise of coaches, but these would be in addition to that):

1) additional discipline in carrying out the training plan due to being watched/tracked
2) desire to receive additional praise/positive reinforcement from coach due to improvement.
3) greater desire to succeed with coach due to financial outlay on part of student
4) greater confidence and positive attitude toward training plan created by 'expert' or one that was convincingly communicated.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I could see the following benefits of coaching possibly being interpreted as components of the Hawthorn Effect (not to detract from the expertise of coaches, but these would be in addition to that):

1) additional discipline in carrying out the training plan due to being watched/tracked
2) desire to receive additional praise/positive reinforcement from coach due to improvement.
3) greater desire to succeed with coach due to financial outlay on part of student
4) greater confidence and positive attitude toward training plan created by 'expert' or one that was convincingly communicated.

Yes, exactly what I'm getting at. If significant, and I'm guessing the cumulative effect of these factors is significant, it entirely changes the consideration of working with a coach way beyond the question of whether he/she can develop a "more elegant" training plan. And, if one (for whatever reason) does most of his/her training solo, these factors become more important.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I have been pondering the question of whether to use a coach as I approach what I think is my potential with a "casually designed" (by me, aka "Bozo") training program. As I consider the benefits of working with a coach via analysis of power meter files and dialogue, I see two potential benefits. The most obvious benefit is a training program better-suited to me and my capabilities, available time, etc. The other potential benefit, which I have seen no discussion of in this forum, is what I will call (based on my training) the "Hawthorn Effect." This is basically the improved performance of individuals or groups due to being observed. It was a classic case study at the graduate business school I attended. http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/history/hawthorne.html. Does anyone have either any evidence or an opinion on performance gains in cycling training due to the "Hawthorn Effect?"

i've not read your link (yet) - it's late here! however, there's definitely a "spectator" effect (if this is possibly what you mean). i can't think of any specific research off the top of my head, but for e.g., we did an (unpublished) study looking at the effect of completing a VO2max test with just the 'tester' watching the rider, and on another day with a crowd of people cheering the rider on -- which significantly increased their power output.

as regards the effect of a rider and coach, i sometimes get messages saying, words to the effect of: "i would have stopped after X intervals, but because i knew you were looking at the file i managed to complete Y intervals".

similarly, if i'm doing intervals on the trainer, i can manage another interval and/or higher power if my wife comes and cheers me on (even though it makes no real difference to her whether i ride at 200 or 300 W).

Ric

 

[RapDaddyo]

i've not read your link (yet) - it's late here! however, there's definitely a "spectator" effect (if this is possibly what you mean).

Yes, the "Hawthorn Effect" is the "spectator" effect. The earliest known (to me) discovery of this effect was a famous study at a manufacturing plant in Illinois in the early 1930s. The intent was to measure the effect on productivity of changes in environment (e.g., brighter lights), work day (e.g., longer breaks), management, etc. When they studied the results, there was a striking observation: regardless of what they changed, productivity went up. After further study, they concluded that productivity went up because the workers were being observed.

 

[RapDaddyo]

similarly, if i'm doing intervals on the trainer, i can manage another interval and/or higher power if my wife comes and cheers me on (even though it makes no real difference to her whether i ride at 200 or 300 W).

I hope frenchyge's wife sees this post.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Yes, the "Hawthorn Effect" is the "spectator" effect. The earliest known (to me) discovery of this effect was a famous study at a manufacturing plant in Illinois in the early 1930s. The intent was to measure the effect on productivity of changes in environment (e.g., brighter lights), work day (e.g., longer breaks), management, etc. When they studied the results, there was a striking observation: regardless of what they changed, productivity went up. After further study, they concluded that productivity went up because the workers were being observed.

i know it by a different name, but (at this late hour) can't recall it!

in most people who are observed, they generally do more work.

ric

 

[robkit]

i know it by a different name, but (at this late hour) can't recall it!

in most people who are observed, they generally do more work.

ric

i can only comment on the inverse, and not in the cycling domain, but in my office. as we say "when the cat's away, the mice will play". noone watching = easy day!

 

[frenchyge]

I hope frenchyge's wife sees this post.

Fat chance of my wife cheering me on in the basement during my intervals, but I have considered recruiting my 7 & 9 yr-old daughters as 'assistants' during an MAP test or other strenuous workouts. Give them a clipboard and a stopwatch and they'd cheer me all day long.

Concerning the Hawthorn Effect, many of the benefits that I mentioned above could probably be achieved by training with a partner, or at least sharing your workout results with your peers. I still think professional coaching would provide *additional* benefits, right Ric?

 

[RapDaddyo]

I have considered recruiting my 7 & 9 yr-old daughters as 'assistants' during an MAP test or other strenuous workouts. Give them a clipboard and a stopwatch and they'd cheer me all day long.

I'm jealous. My kids are too old. If they were home, they'd probably say, "Shut the door, Dad. You're making too much noise."

Concerning the Hawthorn Effect, many of the benefits that I mentioned above could probably be achieved by training with a partner, or at least sharing your workout results with your peers. I still think professional coaching would provide *additional* benefits, right Ric?

I absolutely agree about training with partners. Nothing compares. The peer sharing idea is interesting.

 

[Roadie_scum]

I absolutely agree about training with partners. Nothing compares. The peer sharing idea is interesting.

I have a lot of experience with attempting to create accountability in terms of training with peers and I can say it certainly isn't as good as having a proper coach-athlete relationship. Although I'd say I'm good friends with the guy who normally coaches me, considerations of friendship are dilineated from our relationship in terms of coaching. It is probably an advantage that I knew him first as a coach and then as a friend. This allows him to be critical and objective with me when necessary. In my experience it is almost impossible to keep this sort of accountability between peers unless your goals are totally different - competitiveness and legitimacy/authority issues interfere as a start, and unless both parties are stunningly emotionally mature more difficulties can arise. Also, friends/peers can have their opinions and emotional responses aligned with your own meaning they will not have the capacity to tell you when to back off your training, as well as when to push harder. Certainly, I have utilised peers to good effect in the planning stages of my training, and with accountability to some degree, but they are no substitute for a proper coaching relationship.

 

[frenchyge]

Well said. I'm sure you're right on all counts.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I have utilised peers to good effect in the planning stages of my training, and with accountability to some degree, but they are no substitute for a proper coaching relationship.

Good points. Thanks.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Good points. Thanks.

Cheers. The irony of it all is that due to a limited budget (I am a student) I am currently self-coaching and struggling with it.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Concerning the Hawthorn Effect, many of the benefits that I mentioned above could probably be achieved by training with a partner, or at least sharing your workout results with your peers. I still think professional coaching would provide *additional* benefits, right Ric?

As regards the spectator/Hawthorn effect, i believe that many people will take the easy way out even if they are well motivated. it's only under certain conditions will people push themself to the absolute limit (and this in itself may not be ideal for training -- as you could overly fatigue yourself for the next training session and this may have a cumulative adverse effect). people generally tend to push themself to the limit under certain conditions -- a few specific races, and perhaps when someone is really urging you on.

So, while the Hawthorn effect may allow you to do more work in a specific session, it could have a negative effect on your overall training.

There's many benefits to good coaching, and i believe it's important to seek out a good coach, who can provide good advice, and who is well grounded in certain principles. Roadie_Scum mentioned in another thread about poor professional coaching.

Good coaching will provide a good or excellent training programme and good interaction/communication between the coach and rider. It's important that the coach and rider 'gel', poor interaction leads to less than good coaching.

Roadie_Scum is pretty much on the money -- having to be accountable to your friends or training partners generally isn't as good as a coach. The best thing i find for training partners is that they may help riders to get out training when they may not otherwise. I don't feel that the interaction between two riders will lead to good or reliable coaching between the two. You just won't be objective enough with a friend and may also want to beat that rider in a race, so offering poor advice in training would be a benefit rather than a negative!

A good coach will be able to offer sound evidence based advice in a variety of subjects and should be able to refer you to specialists in areas that they are not strong or qualified in. they should be able to get the best out of rider and cause an adaptation and improvement in fitness that the rider may not be able to do by themself or at a faster rate than the rider would have managed.

Back to Hawthorn: a coach should be able to get a rider to back off as well, as sometimes riders will try to do too much

Please give us a shout about coaching, maybe we can help you?

ric