Does this place serve any purpose?



In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (DRCEEPHD) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Does this place serve any purpose? From: Orac [email protected] Date: 1/14/04 9:53 PM
> >Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >
>
> >Logical fallacy used: appeal to popularity.
> >
> >http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
> >http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html
> >
> >Just because something is popular does not mean it is correct.
> >
> >--
> >Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> > |
>
> I believe that this also applies to modern medicine and its beliefs, nicht wahr?

I never said it didn't. However, remember that my comment was in response to Jan's trumpeting of the
popularity of alternative medicine as "evidence" of its success.

> That is to say, modern medicine may be as false as witch craft...but not too far removed from it.

Of course, the evidence would have to show that, and I doubt you'll be the one to prove it.
Certainly the evidence does show that many altie remedies are definitely not too far removed from
witchcraft.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (DRCEEPHD) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Does this place serve any purpose? From: [email protected] (m nesbitt) Date:
> >1/15/04 9:54 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id:
> ><[email protected]>
>
> Here is what a qualified orthopathic MD could have done for you. Unfortunately, the last medical
> school teaching it was forced to close in 1908.
>
>
>
> >You know, it always amuses me when people talk about drugless doctoring and how the old ways were
> >better than the new ways.
> >
>
> The old ways were not better that the new ways except that these doctors used nutrition and
> lifestyle modification to achieve "healing." They did not belive in "cures" and used medicines
> only to relieve short term symptoms. They did not create "prescription drug addicts."

I thought "treating the symptoms" was a major shortcoming of conventional medicine that you alties
always rant about.

> >As a long term diabetic,
>
> You would not be had you had a qualified orthopath available.

********. You have nothing that will cure diabetes, particularly if it is type I diabetes.

> >with a relatively new kidney
>
> Under orthopathic care, your body would not have degenerated to that state.

Again, ********.

> >a lot of these meds that have come out of R&D departments are allowing me to work,
>
> The meds would not have been necessary.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

> >stay somewhat healthy
>
> Doesn't sound healthy to me. Alive maybe, but definately not healthy.

Better to be alive and only somewhat healthy than dead but "pure" of "medicines."

[Snip]

> >And if we go back even 30 years, I'd be dead
>
> Unfortunately the last medical school for orthopaths closed in 1908. I know of only one MD in the
> US trying to practice orthopathy out of all the 700,000 MDs in this country.
>
> I am opposed to millions of people praying for and other millions wishing for healing and only
> getting poisoned with cures.
>
> I am opposed to a medical monopoly which denies the scientific truths available to us and
> continues to force us down the road of lotions, potions, poisons and cures.

I'm opposed to quacks who make claims of amazing efficacy of their "remedies" without any evidence
to back it up.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (m nesbitt) wrote:

> >
> > My altie beliefs are based upon an American theory of medicine begun in 1822, called
> > "orthopathic medicine".
> >
> > These docs were MDs just as you call yourself and had similar training. However, they did not
> > believe the germ theory of disease. The did not believe in drugging their patients. They were
> > drugless MDs and as a result were termed "the do nothing theory of disease doctors."
> >
> > I am not an MD and do not pretend to be one. However, a am a student of medicine and have been
> > well trained in two theories of medicine...allopathy and orthopathy. Knowledgeable enough to now
> > be able to tell the difference between ******** and cowshit, if you wish to spit the difference.
> >
> > DrC PhD.
>
> You know, it always amuses me when people talk about drugless doctoring and how the old ways were
> better than the new ways.
>
> Because, my friends, the old ways wouldn't have been so good for me. As a long term diabetic, with
> a relatively new kidney, a lot of these meds that have come out of R&D departments are allowing me
> to work, stay somewhat healthy, and keep contributing my paltry sum back to society in taxes.

Indeed. And many people with severe diseases such as your would not live nearly as long as
they do now.

> A drugless doctor would be wonderful, but the human body can't fix itself all the time.

Of course, I also point out to some of these alties that if they're using herbs to treat something,
they're using drugs. Any herbs that actually do anything beneficial for diseases accomplish their
action because they have compounds in them that act as drugs.

> And if we go back even 30 years, I'd be dead. So pharmacorps, despite their many faults, do some
> good work mixed in with the greed.
>
> But from reading the previous handful of messages, a moderate, healthy cynicism does not seem to
> be appreciated much. I like my GP, my nephrologist, and my team of specialists. I believe that
> they wish me well, and I don't believe that they are brainwashed or unaware of the pressures upon
> them. Here in Canada, you can make just as much money as a doctor who never writes a scrip as one
> who does nothing but.
>
> And most are well under 55.
>
> I'm not trying to be strident or bullish, I'm just saying that to classify physicians so simply is
> to invite ridicule.
>
> But hey, what do I know?

You understand that conventional medicine is not perfect, but that it tries to do the best that it
can to help.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I remind you that alt med has 2 treatments for major diseases which main
med
> doesn't.

A healthy diet? Evidence based medicine doesn't have any recommendations for this? And. are you
seriously claiming that no conventional treatments exist for these ailments?

> Heart disease and cancer.

Alt med has hundreds of treatments for them. None of them shown to be effective.

hd
 
Of course , the biggest vice of the more locuacious posters seems to be their tendency to generalize
and see black & whites, esp. the consuetudinary trashers & flamers. Those are to be taken with
humor. And again, if looking for info, it doesnt live here anymore.

"m nesbitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
.
>
> I'm not trying to be strident or bullish, I'm just saying that to classify physicians so simply is
> to invite ridicule.
>
> But hey, what do I know?
>
>
> Mark
 
Well, that was interesting.

Seems that my type 1 diagnosis at age 5 was avoidable, a claim I guess anyone can make because it's
unprovable.

The daily injection of insulin does cause problems. The lack of insulin is a much more immediate
problem for me. If you could train the body to not need insulin, you would be a very popular man,
ditto for your specified branch of "do-nothings".

However, in the early part of this century, they had their chance. Before the advent of insulin as a
treatment for diabetes, all kinds of theories were tried on young children who had this disease.
They all died. Including my Grandmother's younger brother.

Yes, long term diabetes causes a lot of problems. Insulin is a treatment, and diabetics who maintain
a level of blood glucose as close as possible to the norm have fewer side effects. However, as a
"cracked vessel" from the age of 5, the leaks eventually win out, thus degredation of kidneys et al.

I know more about diabetes and human physiology related to this disease than most of the doctors I
deal with. They accept this, take my input, and help me do the best I can with the tools available.

And now I have to go and copy all your messages to my GP, so that she may proceed to Conspiracy
Headquarters to deal with the secrets that some of you have uncovered. She took me for a drive in
the water car the other day, too bad you'll never see it. That and the cure for cancer they're
witholding...

Nothing to be gained from this place.
 
[email protected] (m nesbitt) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Well, that was interesting.
>
>
> Seems that my type 1 diagnosis at age 5 was avoidable, a claim I guess anyone can make because
> it's unprovable.
>
> The daily injection of insulin does cause problems. The lack of insulin is a much more immediate
> problem for me. If you could train the body to not need insulin, you would be a very popular man,
> ditto for your specified branch of "do-nothings".
>
> However, in the early part of this century, they had their chance. Before the advent of insulin as
> a treatment for diabetes, all kinds of theories were tried on young children who had this disease.
> They all died. Including my Grandmother's younger brother.
>
> Yes, long term diabetes causes a lot of problems. Insulin is a treatment, and diabetics who
> maintain a level of blood glucose as close as possible to the norm have fewer side effects.
> However, as a "cracked vessel" from the age of 5, the leaks eventually win out, thus degredation
> of kidneys et al.
>
> I know more about diabetes and human physiology related to this disease than most of the doctors I
> deal with. They accept this, take my input, and help me do the best I can with the tools
> available.
>
> And now I have to go and copy all your messages to my GP, so that she may proceed to Conspiracy
> Headquarters to deal with the secrets that some of you have uncovered. She took me for a drive in
> the water car the other day, too bad you'll never see it. That and the cure for cancer they're
> witholding...
>
> Nothing to be gained from this place.

So I take it all the "Reversing Diabetes" book & stuff didn't do anything for you? (Or is it only
supposed to be for type 2 folks?)
 
After posting my last message, I checked the "Reversing Diabetes" book at Amazon. Unfortunately, it
does seem this is only about type 2 diabetes.

Some of the essence of the debates on this ng could also be seen in reader's feedback on this book.
I liked this viewpoint:

Experience Is Better Than Theory, September 28, 2001 Reviewer: Greg M. from Texas ... It is easy to
give Dr. Whitaker's "program" for treating Diabetes a bad review based on what the standard approach
is because it IS different. But unless you have tried it to the best of your ability and failed,
then I think, that criticism is shallow as opposed to critiques based on the experience of those who
have not only read it but TRIED to follow. ...

I didn't see any feedback based on "I did it, and it didn't work". Negative feedback was in essence
"Don't do it, it's snake oil according to theory." Positive feedback was "I did it, it worked."

My conclusion would be that at least in some cases, it works -- it's hard to believe that all this
feedback is from paid or deluded people. The quality of logic and writing also shows that these are
not stupid people. E.g. this Greg M. shows a fundamental ability to be independently logical (as
opposed to being mere authority-repetitioner.)
 
[email protected] (m nesbitt) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Well, that was interesting.
>
>
> Seems that my type 1 diagnosis at age 5 was avoidable, a claim I guess anyone can make because
> it's unprovable.

Although it is hard to believe, "Dr." CEEPHD has demonstrated that his ignorance WRT to diabetes
rivals his complete & utter cluelessness about the lymphatic system......

> The daily injection of insulin does cause problems. The lack of insulin is a much more immediate
> problem for me. If you could train the body to not need insulin, you would be a very popular man,
> ditto for your specified branch of "do-nothings".

To pronounce that the use of insulin by diabetics is the *cause* of the problems associated with the
disorder is to be expected from someone who (like "Dr." Know-Nothing) doesn't understand IDDM's
pathology, the role of insulin in cellular activity, or the meaning of chronically elevated blood
glucose levels. His reference to pig insulin ignores the variety of insulins in use today -- but
since he refuses to acknowledge that advances have been made in medical science over the last 150-or-
so years he has little idea of available treatment for IDDM.

> However, in the early part of this century, they had their chance. Before the advent of insulin as
> a treatment for diabetes, all kinds of theories were tried on young children who had this disease.
> They all died. Including my Grandmother's younger brother.

The life expectancy of Type I diabetics was abysmal 85+ years ago. Wasting away over a period of
months or a couple of years with secondary complications was the course the disorder took.

> Yes, long term diabetes causes a lot of problems. Insulin is a treatment, and diabetics who
> maintain a level of blood glucose as close as possible to the norm have fewer side effects.
> However, as a "cracked vessel" from the age of 5, the leaks eventually win out, thus degredation
> of kidneys et al.

Having a close friend with IDDM (since age 14, secondary to Addison's Disease of unknown etiology
since age 10), I would love to see a *cure* for it. In the meantime, careful monitoring of his
glucose levels -- following a nutritious way of eating -- moderate exercise -- & the use of newer
types of insulin that keep his blood glucose more stable that those he used previously are keeping
him on an even keel with minimal secondary complications. While he is still technically classified
as a brittle diabetic, he's had very few problems in the last several years. As he approaches the
age of 30 soon, he may well go on to develop the classic problems many diabetics have to deal with.
But without treatment, he would be dead -- instead of running his own business as a sports massage
therapist at a local gym by day & teaching massage several evenings a week, biking & participating
in other sports, & leading a full life he greatly enjoys.

> I know more about diabetes and human physiology related to this disease than most of the doctors I
> deal with. They accept this, take my input, and help me do the best I can with the tools
> available.

I've learned a great deal from my friend (& indirectly from his endocrinologist too) about IDDM.
He's not the least bit put off by any questions I've asked & has directed me to sources of info that
update & advance what I had learned in nursing school & afterwards. I am impressed at his knowledge
of diabetes as well as his matter-of-fact approach to dealing with it. He doesn't make it his
identity, nor does he hide it. [My sons have often kidded with him about the small kit bag he keeps
with him, telling him that they never figured him for a dude who'd carry a purse.....:>)]

> And now I have to go and copy all your messages to my GP, so that she may proceed to Conspiracy
> Headquarters to deal with the secrets that some of you have uncovered. She took me for a drive in
> the water car the other day, too bad you'll never see it. That and the cure for cancer they're
> witholding...
>
> Nothing to be gained from this place.

Actually there are posters here who believe that some so-called alt. therapies can enhance
conventional health care. To utilize vitamins, meditation, massage, & acupuncture as part of one's
treatment for cancer, diabetes, & many other chronic health problems can be a really good thing --
it doesn't negate the value of drug treatment, surgery, &/or other mainstream approaches.. Use of
herbs for some medical conditions is often a reasonable approach. Complementary health care -- that
recognizes that a combination of alt. & conventional health care ideas can be beneficial, that
acknowledges that both arenas also have limitations -- has it proponents on MHA. "One cause / one
cure" folks & those who claim conspiracies (by atheists, Jews, the Illuminati, EOM -- just pick a
group at random) have suppressed information WRT "miracles" in health care are just as readily found
on the NG. If nothing else, you'll read POV's that you don't often see anywhere else.....;)

Michele I ENJOY being a cranky *****.
 
"Happy Dog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > I remind you that alt med has 2 treatments for major diseases which main
> med
> > doesn't.
>
> A healthy diet? Evidence based medicine doesn't have any recommendations for this? And. are you
> seriously claiming that no conventional treatments exist for these ailments?

I find it amusing how you criticise me and yet you quote healthy diet as a prevention of heart
disease or cancer. Show me some 'proof' that a healthy diet prevents cancer or heart disease that
isn't based on 'junk science' I bet you can't.

> > Heart disease and cancer.
> Alt med has hundreds of treatments for them. None of them shown to be
effective.

Out of which I believe in 2.

A healthy diet is unlikely to help you when the crab has its pincers dug into your flesh, in which
case belief is stronger than 'proof'. I ask yourself this, when you are on your death bed with
nothing else to do, do you sit back and die or do you take action to try an unproven therapy? There
are thousands of people as you say "Lack the critical thinking skills" who are alive and well today
when they should be dead. That is living proof. There are thousands of dead people who took the
wrong route or were beyond help.

If you like people who lack the critical thinking skills, I suggest you read Michael Gearin Tosh A
Medical Mutiny. This guy was lucky, he actually used his brain, he refused chemo (which wouldn't
have helped him anyway), had his amalgams removed, did Gerson, enzymes, mega vitamin c and is cancer
free when he should be a statistic.

> hd

Anth
 
Orac <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Of course, I also point out to some of these alties that if they're using herbs to treat
> something, they're using drugs. Any herbs that actually do anything beneficial for diseases
> accomplish their action because they have compounds in them that act as drugs.

Very accurate!!

And have you though about what then is the difference between those you superstitiously defend, vs
the "alties"?

It's very simple. If a medicine is known to work but cannot be patented, a conventional practitioner
is unable to prescribe it.

Root of the difference, and root of much of the debate here, is patentability. Foxglove plants can't
make serious money, Digitalis tablets can. So the Foxglove prescriber must be made out to be a quack
while the Digitalis prescriber must be made to look "scientific".
 
[email protected] (m nesbitt) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Well, that was interesting.

>
> However, in the early part of this century, they had their chance. Before the advent of insulin as
> a treatment for diabetes, all kinds of theories were tried on young children who had this disease.
> They all died. Including my Grandmother's younger brother.

It all depends upon who your medical professional was. The allopath's have always failed miserably
at healing disease. How can you possible heal something by trying to poison the sick into getting
well? The overuse of pig insulin has been improved upon by genetic engineering, but to what
advantage?

>
> Yes, long term diabetes causes a lot of problems. Insulin is a treatment, and diabetics who
> maintain a level of blood glucose as close as possible to the norm have fewer side effects.
> However, as a "cracked vessel" from the age of 5, the leaks eventually win out, thus degredation
> of kidneys et al.

What causes Type I diabetes? I think it was not your fault. I think it was your parent's fault and
the medical system in power.

I think that disorder is set up by feeding the infants pasteurized cow's milk and formula. This
creates a weak infant from not being nurished correctly. When you follow this up with the
poisons we call vaccines, you can destroy the infant's ability to produce insulin, hence they
get Type I diabetes.

Were you a city kid or country? Makes a difference.

Were you breast fed or bottle fed? This makes a real difference.

Were you fully vaccinated? This is very important as well.

> Nothing to be gained from this place.

Mostly correct, but not always true.

DrC PhD
 
Op 16 Jan 2004 10:18:35 -0800 schreef [email protected]
(soft-eng):

>Orac <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<orac-12CC00.21000015012004@news4-
>ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>
>> Of course, I also point out to some of these alties that if they're using herbs to treat
>> something, they're using drugs. Any herbs that actually do anything beneficial for diseases
>> accomplish their action because they have compounds in them that act as drugs.
>
>Very accurate!!
>
>And have you though about what then is the difference between those you superstitiously defend, vs
>the "alties"?
>
>It's very simple. If a medicine is known to work but cannot be patented, a conventional
>practitioner is unable to prescribe it.
>
>Root of the difference, and root of much of the debate here, is patentability. Foxglove plants
>can't make serious money, Digitalis tablets can. So the Foxglove prescriber must be made out to be
>a quack while the Digitalis prescriber must be made to look "scientific".

There's a little more to it than that, IMO. Taking foxglove means that you're getting a lot more
than just the glycosides (so there's more chance of e.g. allergic reactions or interactions between
compounds) and in largely unknown quantities (so it's impossible to define the dosis taken) while
prescribing the simple formulation means you know exactly (within acceptable limits) how much of
what compound is taken, which greatly reduces the chances of allergic reactions and interactions.

Robert Bronsing
 
"soft-eng" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Orac <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Of course, I also point out to some of these alties that if they're using herbs to treat
> > something, they're using drugs. Any herbs that actually do anything beneficial for diseases
> > accomplish their action because they have compounds in them that act as drugs.
>
> Very accurate!!
>
> And have you though about what then is the difference between those you superstitiously defend, vs
> the "alties"?

I note the inflammatory language ("superstitiously") that you employ. Do not whine when it is
turned on you.

> It's very simple. If a medicine is known to work but cannot be patented, a conventional
> practitioner is unable to prescribe it.

Many things are patentable. .

> Root of the difference, and root of much of the debate here, is patentability. Foxglove plants
> can't make serious money, Digitalis tablets can. So the Foxglove prescriber must be made out to be
> a quack while the Digitalis prescriber must be made to look "scientific".

The extraction of digitalis from the foxglove plant was patented. When the patent expired, it became
public domain. However, more to the point....

The quantity of chemicals in a tablet are carefully determined during manufacture. The quantity of
the chemicals in a plant are not. thus, using the plant instead of a tablet runs the risk of too
much or too little. When one is talking about something to protect the heart, one has to be care to
do it right.
 
Bronsing <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Op 16 Jan 2004 10:18:35 -0800 schreef [email protected] (soft-eng):
>
> >Orac <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<orac-12CC00.21000015012004@news4-
> >ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> >
> >> Of course, I also point out to some of these alties that if they're using herbs to treat
> >> something, they're using drugs. Any herbs that actually do anything beneficial for diseases
> >> accomplish their action because they have compounds in them that act as drugs.
> >
> >Very accurate!!
> >
> >And have you though about what then is the difference between those you superstitiously defend,
> >vs the "alties"?
> >
> >It's very simple. If a medicine is known to work but cannot be patented, a conventional
> >practitioner is unable to prescribe it.
> >
> >Root of the difference, and root of much of the debate here, is patentability. Foxglove plants
> >can't make serious money, Digitalis tablets can. So the Foxglove prescriber must be made out to
> >be a quack while the Digitalis prescriber must be made to look "scientific".
>
> There's a little more to it than that, IMO. Taking foxglove means that you're getting a lot more
> than just the glycosides (so there's more chance of e.g. allergic reactions or interactions
> between compounds) and in largely unknown quantities (so it's impossible to define the dosis
> taken) while prescribing the simple formulation means you know exactly (within acceptable limits)
> how much of what compound is taken, which greatly reduces the chances of allergic reactions and
> interactions.
>
> Robert Bronsing

I imagine sometime in the future, someone would be able to draw a chart showing the chemical
reactions caused by a particular chemical, the effects on the protein synthesis, and the reason why
a certain chemical compound would (for instance) affect the movements of the heart.

In the meanwhile, medicine is a hit-and-miss empirical science. It is useful to be able to pinpoint
the particular chemical that is relevant -- but in other cases the theory has been proposed that
other chemicals in the original herb provided essential support that is sometimes lost in the
isolation of the effective chemical.

In any case, the point was that in the current environment, conventional doctors are not able to
prescribe anything unless it comes from a pharmacy. Pharmacies are not going to undertake medicine
developments unless there is a patent involved.

So many useful medicines will not get pursued, simply because of the commerce involved. Nothing to
do with the efficacy of the medicine or the lack thereof. Commerce, not science, is the actual
driving force here.

Alternative medicine is providing a very vital role, in this environment.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (DRCEEPHD) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Does this place serve any purpose? From: Orac [email protected] Date: 1/15/04 8:55 PM
> >Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>

> >In fact, medicine in 1822 was much the way alties practice: unscientific, unreproducible, full of
> >questionable remedies overhyped (the iconic "snake oil salesmen"), and with no accountability.
>
> Exactly why Dr. Jennings began the medical science of orthopathy.

And, how, exactly is "orthopathy" an improvement. From your description, it sounds even MORE
unscientific, unreproducible, and full of questionable remedies than conventional medicine
circa 1822.

> >> However, they did not believe the germ theory of disease.
> >
> >That's nice. Of course, the germ theory of disease was not really developed until decades later
> >than 1822; so it's not surprising that a philosophy of medicine begun in 1822 would not recognize
> >it. Too bad they didn't keep up with the times.
> >
> The did not accept the germ theory of disease because it did not exist in 1822. They did not
> accept it after Pasteur because their theory of health and disease did not require it or need it.

That's nice, but the germ theory of disease has been validated innumerable times over the last
century plus. Putting your head in the sand and claiming that microbes don't cause disease does not
mean that they do not cause disease. The evidence shows overwhelmingly otherwise.

> It is nice that Be'champ, and others, have done the research, published it, and scientifically
> proven that bacteria do not cause disease putting the orthopath's inital deductions on a very firm
> scientific basis.

No they haven't. Their research ended up being a dead end and they drew incorrct conclusions.

>
> It is the modern docs who are the deluded quacks that still cling to an outdated and false theory
> of disease.

I don't cling to Bechamps' theory of disease. You cling to that outdated and false theory
of disease.

> >>The did not believe in drugging their patients. They were drugless MDs and as a result were
> >>termed "the do nothing theory of disease doctors."
> >
> >Sounds about right to me.
>
> The "do nothing" tag was put on them by people like you who believed in poisoning the sick into
> getting well. What the orthopaths did was as "intelligent nothing", something you will never
> comprehend.

Of course, you have yet to show me that this "intelligent nothing" does anything whatsoever
for disease.

[Snip]

> >It is not surprising to me that you would be an expert in ****.
> >
>
> I certainly have to wade through enough of it in this group.

You certainly contribute way more than your fair share of it to this group, as well.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (DRCEEPHD) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Does this place serve any purpose? From: Orac [email protected] Date: 1/15/04 9:10 PM
> >Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>

> >> You would not be had you had a qualified orthopath available.
> >
> >********. You have nothing that will cure diabetes, particularly if it is type I diabetes.
> >
>
> You have nothing.
>
> What the orthopaths had and did is a matter of record if you wish to dig deep enough and
> hard enough.

I already did, in another post. It is you who clearly misunderstand the hisory of diabetes
management.

> They did not prescribe pig insulin except for short term immediate relief. Long term they
> counseled the patient in what had to be done in order to avoid hyperglycemia.

And look how well that worked. Before 1922, when insulin was first used to treat childhood diabetes,
the standard treatment was a very restrictive diet, where the amount of food given was just enough
to keep the diabetic from having sugar in their urine. Although it prolonged life months to maybe a
few years, in the end childhood diabetics would waste away and die of starvation or complications of
their diabetes.

Dietary treatment for childhood diabetics is useless in the long term. The only reason conventional
medicine tried it was, before insulin, it was the only treatment that worked even a little bit, even
in the short term.

> Diabetes is dibilitating, however, it is the insulin that can be fatal. It is the insulin that
> causes blindness, amputations, and death from heart disease.

********. Insulin keeps patients alive long enough so that these complications actually have a
chance to develop. Without insulin, childhood diabetics wouldn't live long enough to develop these
complications, because they take years to develop. There is also pretty good evidence that tight
control of glucose levels delays the onset of these complications.

> No doctor putting a patient on a lifetime of drugs which leads to the above complications should
> be considered anything other than a quack.

No doctor telling a patient to forego a treatment that could prolong his life decades in favor of
ineffective treatments should be considered anything other than a quack.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I remind you that alt med has 2 treatments for major diseases which main med doesn't. Heart
> disease and cancer.

And I remind you that there is no good evidence that either of them work better than conventional
medicine--or even as well.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (m nesbitt) wrote:

> Well, that was interesting.
>
>
> Seems that my type 1 diagnosis at age 5 was avoidable, a claim I guess anyone can make because
> it's unprovable.

Exactly. "Dr. C" likes to make a whole lot of claims that are untestable and unprovable. He knows
they're untestable and unprovable, too, which is why he keeps making them.

I would also point out that, before the 1920's, you would almost certainly have never lived to
adulthood. Before the discovery of insulin in 1921-22 by Sir Frederick Banting and Dr. Charles Best
at the University of Toronto, the treatment for childhood diabetes was a very, very restrictive diet
of only as much food as the patient could eat without starting to spill sugar in their urine. This
diet warded off death only months or years, before the patients would succumb to starvation or
complications from their diabetes. In 1922, fourteen-year-old Elizabeth Hughes was close to death
from starvation. She began insulin treatments immediately and continued for the next 59 years to do
so, an immediate and dramatic improvement better than anything ever objectively shown for any
disease by "alternative" medicine.

It took several years before insulin could be manufactured in large quantities to treat many
diabetics, but by the 1930's, diabetes had become largely manageable. It was no longer a death
sentence. For this achievement, Banting and Best richly deserved the Nobel Prize in Medicine
that they won.

> The daily injection of insulin does cause problems. The lack of insulin is a much more immediate
> problem for me. If you could train the body to not need insulin, you would be a very popular man,
> ditto for your specified branch of "do-nothings".

Conventional medicine has been working for a long time on strategies to have the body make its own
insulin as a means of treating diabetes. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult. The only proven way
right now is a pancreas transplant, but this is an operation fraught with potential complications
and is now usually only used for very severe diabetics who are brittle (i.e., very difficult to
control their sugar levels--they frequently swing between too high and too low) using conventional
insulin injections.

> However, in the early part of this century, they had their chance. Before the advent of insulin as
> a treatment for diabetes, all kinds of theories were tried on young children who had this disease.
> They all died. Including my Grandmother's younger brother.
>
> Yes, long term diabetes causes a lot of problems. Insulin is a treatment, and diabetics who
> maintain a level of blood glucose as close as possible to the norm have fewer side effects.
> However, as a "cracked vessel" from the age of 5, the leaks eventually win out, thus degredation
> of kidneys et al.

Also, insulin is a great example of why the criticism by "alties" that conventional medicine just
"treats the symptoms" is a crock. Sometimes treating the symptoms is a very effective thing, if
nothing better has yet been developed. Yes, you can label insulin injections only "treating the
symptoms," but it's a VERY effective treatment of the symptoms that vastly prolongs life and can
delay the onset of many of the complications of diabetes. Until a more permanent cure for diabetes
that allows the body to make its own insulin and appropriately regulate its levels can be developed,
insulin injections do a pretty damned good job of helping diabetics.

> I know more about diabetes and human physiology related to this disease than most of the doctors I
> deal with. They accept this, take my input, and help me do the best I can with the tools
> available.
>
> And now I have to go and copy all your messages to my GP, so that she may proceed to Conspiracy
> Headquarters to deal with the secrets that some of you have uncovered. She took me for a drive in
> the water car the other day, too bad you'll never see it. That and the cure for cancer they're
> witholding...
>
> Nothing to be gained from this place.

Not from "Dr." C, certainly.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"
 
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm Anth

"Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Anth" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I remind you that alt med has 2 treatments for major diseases which main
med
> > doesn't. Heart disease and cancer.
>
> And I remind you that there is no good evidence that either of them work better than conventional
> medicine--or even as well.
>
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"