"What is past is past, there is nothing we can do about it."
That's basically an over-simplification of the situation, though. Of course, history matters.
The reason I defend Israel has much to do with my perusal of ancient history and, I guess, a common sense awareness that you can't logically cut whole races of people off from their roots, without creating tensions. I mean, black African Americans have had a tough enough time after they were taken as slaves from Africa - it's a common theme. I think this may well explain why Muhammad Ali always understood the Jewish side to this question.
As I said before, we have excavations within Israel that go all the way back to 850 B.C., the script being either Hebrew or Aramaic. There is pottery, coinage and all sorts of stuff.
No matter how much you might dismiss this point I make about ancient history, the fact remains that Jews practised the same form of Judaism in Israel 3000 years ago as they do today. That includes some forms of Gnostic, non-Orthodox Judaism. It's natural Jews should want to live there if they continue to be religious.
Then you have the Roman period when Israel was a self-governing Roman province under Herod. That was around 10 A.D. The crucial point is this: Islam appeared on the scene quite late, around 600 A.D. I believe. That's over 1,600 years after the arrival of Judaism in the Middle East.
History matters.
The modern conflict in the Middle East has to do with religion, whether we like it or not, so atheists too have to try and understand these sensitivities. The Arabs led by Iran resent the presence of Israel (particularly Judaism) in a land they believe must be a totally Islamic sphere of influence. If you don't believe me, here is how George Galloway put it:
"Two of your beautiful daughters are in the hands of foreigners - Jerusalem and Baghdad. The foreigners are doing to your daughters as they will. The daughters are crying for help, and the Arab world is silent."
So, Galloway makes it clear here what his objection is: Jerusalem, he says, is the daughter of Islam and if the ancient historians disagree with that view, they can go and take a hike. I'd like to ask Galloway how come he arrives at that conclusion if Islam dates from 600 A.D., 1,500 years after Jews had already been doing their own thing in the same region. Jeruslalem is the historical daughter of Islam? Tell that one to Pliny!
It hardly seems fair from the point of history.
I just don't see why you don't recognise the rights of Israelis to reside in a democratic Jewish State but you have no gripe against Iran being an Islamic theocracy? Surely they both have the right to clas themselves as they wish. After all, Israel doesn't interfere in Iran's affairs or send out suicide bombers to Iran - not thus far.
"You seem obssessed with Iran, what about the extra-judicial killings in Israel ?"
How many Christian Churches are free to operate in Israel (which you claim is intolerant)? And Iran? Please read this:
http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/ira1.htm
"The following churches have been forced to close by the Iranian regime: 1. A building in Kerman and another in Ahwaz, both used by the Anglican and Presbyterian congregations in those cities; and the Assemblies of God Church in Gorgan. (This was the only evangelical church in the whole of Mazanderan province, and with its closure, there is nowhere for evangelical christians to worship.) Various church house-groups have also been closed down in Sari and Mashad and Ahwaz and the Christians there are strictly forbidden to meet."
My question and this is the big one: How come you have done no research into Iran's religious persecutions and intolerance of minorities? I don't get it.
"Not *all* jews were "scattered" around the Globe, some of them remained in Palestine."
I think you already made it clear you have no problem over Jews living in the Middle East possibly under a dominant Islamic theocracy - that is, if they were allowed to stay at all which I seriously doubt. Specifically what seems to upset you is the idea of Israel exisiting as a self-governing Jewish State but I don't know why that should cause you so much grief. That's where I get lost in your grievance.
"A cousin studied Arabic and spent some time with the Marsh Arabs in Southern Iraq (sometime before Saddam's onslaught on the region)."
I have a friend in Spain who studied Egyptian Arabic at university. I never discussed any of this with him but probably we wouldn't agree.
darkboong said:That must be because you choose ignore everything else I say Crappy.
Hmm, I have, not here though. It's your point though, so it is up to you to prove that I have never criticised any other country. This thread already provides evidence to the contrary.
What about them ? Surely that's wrong too.
I don't have any such theory (or Hypothesis) to prove Crappy. As I have already pointed out, I have acknowledged these same crimes going on in other countries. For that reason you have no reason to make the claim that I am trying to prove that Israel is "uniquely bad and unjust".
You seem obssessed with Iran, what about the extra-judicial killings in Israel ?
Indeed, because I am talking what is going on in 2006. What is past is past, there is nothing we can do about it.
Not *all* jews were "scattered" around the Globe, some of them remained in Palestine.
Prove it.
Doubtful. The reason why I follow the situation so closely is that Lawrence of Arabia was a childhood hero of mine. After reading the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E.Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia), learning about Arab nationalism on the way, I started paying attention to the situation in Lebanon (this was the late 70s and 80s).
There were other influences too. My grandfather (the SoE guy) served the Foreign Office during the 50s through to the 70s, he served in a number of Muslim countries including Iraq, Oman and Indonesia. I was fascinated by the cine films that my Grandmother took in the area, the stories that they told (Mum also has a few stories of Baghdad in the 50s). A cousin studied Arabic and spent some time with the Marsh Arabs in Southern Iraq (sometime before Saddam's onslaught on the region). I remember being fascinated the pictures of their reed-boats and how they seemingly used the Adze for just about every task !
That said I don't immerse myself in Arab culture by any stretch of the imagination, but I do watch what is going on there with an eagle eye. It is important to all of us here in the UK, because so much of our lives is dependent on Middle Eastern Oil.
