Don't blame it on....



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J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
Dear oh dear, what a lot of moaning minnies they are over on uk.tosspot. As ever Mr. Safety has come
up with some figures which "prove" that speed cameras are responsible for (read this carefully) a
reduction in the downward trend of road fatalities. Yes, that's right, road fatalities are still
going down, but according to Mr Safety, cameras are responsible for 1000 deaths every year!

You will note that drivers are absolved of anny bame in the matter.

Having been challenged to prove it wasn't one of the other factors which changed over the same
period - like police cutbacks (unrelated to cameras, of course, since every area of public service
was cut back in the 1990s), airbags, ABS, Jeremy Clarkson or the acute selfishness which now
pervades some parts of society, Mr Safety took refuge in "I prediucted this would happen, I've
looked for it, and lo! and behold! it has come to pass."

Anyway, I was riding along this evening humming a little tune when I suddenly realised - the words
of the Jackson Five's seminal hit "Don't Blame It On The Boogie" were merging in my mind with a
different and wholly more seditious lyric.

Here, dear reader, is that subversive song:

Don't Blame It On The Cagers
============================
Those cagers always speeding And it wouldn't be a bad thing But the cameras are flashing And the
points pile high

I sped right up the M1 Like I was really someone From that night I kissed My licence goodbye

CHORUS Don't blame it on the cagers Don't blame it on the selfish Don't blame it on the speeding
Blame it on the camera.

Don't you blame it on cagers Don't blame it on selfish Don't blame it on speeding Blame it on
the camera.

Illegal speeding bugs me But somehow it has drugged me Engine rhythm gets me My lead feet.

I've changed my life completely The motor has consumed me My baby just won't take A car with me.

CHORUS

I just can't I just can't I just can't control myself.

I just can't I just can't I just can't control myself.

CHORUS

This tragic motor grooves me That dirty greenhouse moves me The devil's gotten to me Driving
in a trance.

I'm full of traffic anger A fire burns inside me Speeding's got me in a Cager trance

CHORUS

Cagers Selfish Speeding Camera

Cagers Selfish Speeding Camera

Don't you blame it You just got to You just want to Yea -

Blame it on yourself Ain't nobody's fault But yours and that greenhouse Speeding all night long

Yours and that greenhouse Ain't nobody's fault But yours Speeding all night long.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
R

Richard Goodman

Guest
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dear oh dear, what a lot of moaning minnies they are over on uk.tosspot.

Nice! Lately I've been reflecting on how much cars/motorvehicles have 'stolen' from us - they've
stolen the streets, the minds of most of those who drive them, our health, money, time and in some
cases even life itself. The thing that drivers believe liberates them from bounds of time and
place has actually taken over their minds and the lives of all of us. What is worst is the
self-righteous don't-give-a-damn-about-others attitude that seems to possess the minds of cagers
and gets so blatantly expressed all the time in uk.tosspot (and of course we see it on the streets
every day too).

Rich
 
M

Michael Macclan

Guest
Richard Goodman wrote:
> lives of all of us. What is worst is the self-righteous don't-give-a-damn-about-others attitude
> that seems to possess the minds of

some/many (surely not all)?????????????

cagers and gets so blatantly expressed all the time in
> uk.tosspot (and of course we see it on the streets every day too).
>
> Rich

--
Michael MacClancy
 
T

Tony W

Guest
"Richard Goodman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Nice! Lately I've been reflecting on how much cars/motorvehicles have 'stolen' from us - they've
> stolen the streets, the minds of most of those who drive them, our health, money, time and in some
> cases even life
itself.
> The thing that drivers believe liberates them from bounds of time and
place
> has actually taken over their minds and the lives of all of us. What is worst is the
> self-righteous don't-give-a-damn-about-others attitude that seems to possess the minds of cagers
> and gets so blatantly expressed all
the
> time in uk.tosspot (and of course we see it on the streets every day too).

You could make similar arguments against most other technical developments through the ages. It is
the nature of the beast. In ancient Mesopotamia there may well have been some bemoaning (in ancient
Aramaic) the development of agriculture as it stopped men being real men and enjoying the thrill of
the daily hunting trips. Certainly the computer and internet has changed my way of life. Most of
today I will be working from home with colleagues in California and Virginia (when the sleepy-heads
are awake) -- distance is irrelevant.

Piped water & sewage may have triggered the biggest improvement in the health of people ever -- but
you can imaging that it destroyed the daily chin wag down the local well or while strolling down the
garden path.

Remember also that automobiles were first seen as the solution to a major environmental problem --
our cities were disappearing under tonnes of horse **** every day.

The problem is not particularly the cars -- though they are filthy pollution sources. Rather it is
the sloppy thinking that suggests the car is the only option, it is the isolation, depersonalisation
and aggression driving induces and, perhaps most critically, it is the 'freedom' they provide for
people to live, work, shop and learn in such widely separated location. On uk.tosspot you see people
saying a car is 'essential' because they live 20, 30, 100 miles from their work -- wrong -- they
could not sustain that without an effective transport link -- but they could not work in California
and Virginia simultaneously however fast their car and clear the roads. I can.

As with most technology the car is a double edged sword. What can be idealised as a tool to provide
personal freedom has become a serpent strangling the life out of our cities & towns. We can't live
with it -- but, sadly, tosspots are right -- living without it (or more accurately without motorised
road transport) will also be very difficult -- at least until the next short term technical fix
arrives. That remind me -- I must order my shopping from cyber Tesco.

T
 
M

Michael Macclan

Guest
Tony W wrote:
>
> As with most technology the car is a double edged sword. What can be idealised as a tool to
> provide personal freedom has become a serpent strangling the life out of our cities & towns. We
> can't live with it -- but, sadly, tosspots are right -- living without it (or more accurately
> without motorised road transport) will also be very difficult -- at least until the next short
> term technical fix arrives. That remind me -- I must order my shopping from cyber Tesco.
>
> T

Does anyone know of any studies that determine the effect that home delivery has on traffic and the
environment? There's an argument that home delivery increases traffic because every store sends its
own 'man in a van' to deliver to the customer whereas when people actually go shopping they often
consolidate several stores into a single trip. There are obviously potential efficiencies to be
gained by the optimal organisation of delivery rounds but the take up rate of home delivery from
individual stores needs to be quite high to provide useful delivery densities.

--
Michael MacClancy
 
G

Geraint Jones

Guest
"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote: ( Does anyone know of any studies that
determine the effect that home delivery ) has on traffic and the environment? There's an argument
that home delivery ( increases traffic because every store sends its own 'man in a van' to ) deliver
to the customer whereas when people actually go shopping they often ( consolidate several stores
into a single trip. There are obviously ) potential efficiencies to be gained by the optimal
organisation of delivery ( rounds but the take up rate of home delivery from individual stores needs
to ) be quite high to provide useful delivery densities.

The overheads (and inconveniences) of home delivery surely mean that one orders less often than one
would shop? And I don't believe that people who shop in the sort of shop that does home delivery by
man-in-a-van go to much more than one shop on a shopping trip anyway.

Where it would put more infernal combusion traffic on the road would be if it were to persuade
someone like me who does the weekend shop on a bicycle to separate the shopping from the exercise.
(No danger of that while they're still substituting bread rolls for toilet rolls.)

What it does seem to do is to put on the roads, and more particularly on the streets, more of the
sort of driving one normally associates with taxi drivers and post office vans. Have you seen your
local supermarket's delivery man doing his rounds?
 
M

Michael Macclan

Guest
Geraint Jones wrote:
> "Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote: ( Does anyone know of any studies that
> determine the effect that home delivery ) has on traffic and the environment? There's an argument
> that home delivery ( increases traffic because every store sends its own 'man in a van' to )
> deliver to the customer whereas when people actually go shopping they often ( consolidate several
> stores into a single trip. There are obviously ) potential efficiencies to be gained by the
> optimal organisation of delivery ( rounds but the take up rate of home delivery from individual
> stores needs to ) be quite high to provide useful delivery densities.
>
> The overheads (and inconveniences) of home delivery surely mean that one orders less often than
> one would shop? And I don't believe that people who shop in the sort of shop that does home
> delivery by man-in-a-van go to much more than one shop on a shopping trip anyway.
>
> Where it would put more infernal combusion traffic on the road would be if it were to persuade
> someone like me who does the weekend shop on a bicycle to separate the shopping from the exercise.
> (No danger of that while they're still substituting bread rolls for toilet rolls.)
>
> What it does seem to do is to put on the roads, and more particularly on the streets, more of the
> sort of driving one normally associates with taxi drivers and post office vans. Have you seen your
> local supermarket's delivery man doing his rounds?

Those are very interesting points. The people who I know who use home delivery tend to use it for
heavy (e.g. liquids) or bulky (e.g. nappies) items and the regular canned stuff. I don't think they
go to shops any less frequently because they have these items delivered.

The van I see most frequently is from Waitrose and I haven't noticed any bad driving. AFAIK the
driver hasn't even gone over my front lawn - which is something many other people seem to manage
regularly!
--
Michael MacClancy
 
W

Wafflycathcsdir

Guest
In the words of my cats...

APAWZ!!! APAWZ!!!

Loved it Guy :)

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
~~~~~~~~~~
 
D

David E. Belche

Guest
> Geraint Jones wrote:
>
> > (No danger of that while they're still substituting bread rolls for toilet rolls.)

Really, or is this a slight exaggeration? Don't like the sound of it much, especially if they were
the granary variety - ouch! :-( Mind you, it does sound like the sort of mishap that makes me
sceptical about buying groceries online....

David E. Belcher

Dept. of Chemistry, University of York
 
R

Raptorman

Guest
Front page report in our local paper last week (Bucks Free Press - High Wycombe edition) or the week
before was that accidents and injuries had risen at sites where speed cameras have been installed in
the last 3 or 4 years.

No idea where they got the figures from (and not sure I really care) but I thought of you and Mr
Smith when I was reading it. :)

Russ

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dear oh dear, what a lot of moaning minnies they are over on uk.tosspot. As ever Mr. Safety has
> come up with some figures which "prove" that speed cameras are responsible for (read this
> carefully) a reduction in the downward trend of road fatalities. Yes, that's right, road
> fatalities are still going down, but according to Mr Safety, cameras are responsible for 1000
> deaths every year!
>
> You will note that drivers are absolved of anny bame in the matter.
>
> Having been challenged to prove it wasn't one of the other factors which changed over the same
> period - like police cutbacks (unrelated to cameras, of course, since every area of public service
> was cut back in the 1990s), airbags, ABS, Jeremy Clarkson or the acute selfishness which now
> pervades some parts of society, Mr Safety took refuge in "I prediucted this would happen, I've
> looked for it, and lo! and behold! it has come to pass."
>
> Anyway, I was riding along this evening humming a little tune when I suddenly realised - the words
> of the Jackson Five's seminal hit "Don't Blame It On The Boogie" were merging in my mind with a
> different and wholly more seditious lyric.
>
> Here, dear reader, is that subversive song:
>
> Don't Blame It On The Cagers
> ============================
> Those cagers always speeding And it wouldn't be a bad thing But the cameras are flashing And the
> points pile high
>
> I sped right up the M1 Like I was really someone From that night I kissed My licence goodbye
>
> CHORUS Don't blame it on the cagers Don't blame it on the selfish Don't blame it on the speeding
> Blame it on the camera.
>
> Don't you blame it on cagers Don't blame it on selfish Don't blame it on speeding Blame it on
> the camera.
>
> Illegal speeding bugs me But somehow it has drugged me Engine rhythm gets me My lead feet.
>
> I've changed my life completely The motor has consumed me My baby just won't take A car with me.
>
> CHORUS
>
> I just can't I just can't I just can't control myself.
>
> I just can't I just can't I just can't control myself.
>
> CHORUS
>
> This tragic motor grooves me That dirty greenhouse moves me The devil's gotten to me Driving in
> a trance.
>
> I'm full of traffic anger A fire burns inside me Speeding's got me in a Cager trance
>
> CHORUS
>
> Cagers Selfish Speeding Camera
>
> Cagers Selfish Speeding Camera
>
> Don't you blame it You just got to You just want to Yea -
>
> Blame it on yourself Ain't nobody's fault But yours and that greenhouse Speeding all night long
>
> Yours and that greenhouse Ain't nobody's fault But yours Speeding all night long.
>
> Guy
> ===
> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
> dynamic DNS permitting)
> NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
> work. Apologies.
 
L

-Lsqnot Respond

Guest
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:45:11 -0000, "Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Tony W wrote:
>>
>> As with most technology the car is a double edged sword. What can be idealised as a tool to
>> provide personal freedom has become a serpent strangling the life out of our cities & towns. We
>> can't live with it -- but, sadly, tosspots are right -- living without it (or more accurately
>> without motorised road transport) will also be very difficult -- at least until the next short
>> term technical fix arrives. That remind me -- I must order my shopping from cyber Tesco.
>>
>> T
>
>Does anyone know of any studies that determine the effect that home delivery has on traffic and the
>environment? There's an argument that home delivery increases traffic because every store sends its
>own 'man in a van' to deliver to the customer whereas when people actually go shopping they often
>consolidate several stores into a single trip. There are obviously potential efficiencies to be
>gained by the optimal organisation of delivery rounds but the take up rate of home delivery from
>individual stores needs to be quite high to provide useful delivery densities.

A couple of other points. You're replacing a number of joe-public 'gifted amateur' drivers with a
smaller number of professional drivers. These are more likely to try and be 'good' drivers as in a
retail environment, the reputation of the brand is v. important.

In terms of pollution, the big fleets are far more incentivised and willing to adopt fuel efficient
and low pollution technologies.
 
W

Wafflycathcsdir

Guest
>Front page report in our local paper last week (Bucks Free Press - High Wycombe edition) or the
>week before was that accidents and injuries had risen at sites where speed cameras have been
>installed in the last 3 or 4 years.

Yet here in Norfolk, it made the press that here, accidents had reduced a lot.

From www.edp24.co.uk with url http://tinyurl.com/64as

"Speed cameras' effect on drink-driving

ROWAN ENTWISTLE

February 12, 2003 07:18

The number of people killed or seriously injured on Norfolk roads where speed cameras operate has
fallen dramatic-ally, according to figures published last night.

The statistics show that since the introduction of cameras on blackspot roads more than a year ago,
there have been no deaths and a 50pc reduction in serious injuries.

This compares with a decrease of 35pc in the num-ber of deaths and serious injuries nationally.

However, on stretches of road where there are no cameras, Norfolk police have reported a 40pc
increase in the number of people killed.

Speed has been pinpointed as the major cause of the deaths which increased to 77 last year, 19 more
than in 2001.

Last night, Bryan Edwards, spokesman for the Norfolk Casualty Reduction Partner-ship, said the
presence of the cameras was helping to educate people not to speed, but there was still a long
way to go.

"We want to educate people so that driving with excessive speed becomes as socially unacceptable as
drink-driving. There are no danger-ous roads – it's the people on them who make them dangerous."

He added: "We have now identified up to 115 areas where we will operate in the next 12 months. Five
will be fixed cameras and the rest will be covered by the existing four mobile cameras."

The partnership, comprising the police and health and local authorities, is part of the effort to
meet the Govern-ment's target of reducing road deaths and serious injury accidents by 40pc by 2010.

Mr Edwards stressed the cameras could only be set up at known sites with a history of crashes and
fatalities. In all, there are 40 known accident blackspots around the county.

All money raised by the partnership through speeding fines is used to pay for the existing cameras
and to extend their use at other accident blackspots.

Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said the figures released yesterday showed that no government
could justify getting rid of the cameras, which have sparked anger among some motorists.

"It is quite clear that speeding is dangerous and causes too much suffering," Mr Darling said.

"I hope this reinforces the message that speed cameras are there to stop people speeding and make
the roads safer."

It is thought likely that the use of cameras across the country will be increased as a result of the
experimental pilot scheme, conducted in eight areas of the UK.

But the scheme's findings also showed that the number of deaths and serious injuries within 500m of
speed cameras actually rose in some areas.

Mr Edwards said there was no evidence of that happening in Norfolk.

Alan Dale, of the Sensible Speeds Initiative in Norwich, said cameras did not address the problem of
bad driving and said more police officers needed to be present to improve drivers' bad habits.

Since the scheme was launched in Norfolk in October 2001, about 27,000 motorists have been
caught speeding.

For a list of all fixed and mobile speed cameras, visit www.edp24.co.uk"

Cheers, helen s

~~~~~~~~~~
Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
~~~~~~~~~~
 
R

Robert McDonald

Guest
>......accidents and injuries had risen at sites where speed cameras have been installed in the last
>3 or 4 years.

I wonder...... How big is the area that they take to include the 'site' of the camera?

IME drivers are very careful (no demon braking as posited by the likes of PS that I've seen) in the
'zone' and then...ZOOM! off they go at 45mph again. Maybe *that's* when the accidents happen. The
police should site mobile traps just after a camera and hammer all those they catch.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT blaming the cameras or the legislation!

BiGrab
 
R

Russ P

Guest
"wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Front page report in our local paper last week (Bucks Free Press - High Wycombe edition) or the
> >week before was that accidents and injuries had risen at sites where speed cameras have been
> >installed in the last 3 or 4 years.
>
> Yet here in Norfolk, it made the press that here, accidents had reduced a
lot.
>

No - sorry not phrased very well - the problem in the Thames Valley is where cameras have been
installed in the last 3 or 4 years where they weren't there before that that accidents have risen -
it's contrary to the national trend and quite contrary to what you'd expect which is what made me
think of Guy and Paul.

Oxford Times today had a similar report with a load of graphs which looked like they'd come right
out of the safespeed site !!! They clearly showed (overall) accidents rapidly falling until cameras
were introduced at which point they became pretty constant. More to do with the reduction in
policing rather than anything intrinsic in cameras I suspect but does rather arm those that might
suggest that Gatso's do little for ACTUAL road safety but are good revenue generators.

Even more worrying however was that the accidents withing 200yds of the cameras had risen after the
cameras were erected. Again this effect only applied to the Thames Valley apparently. It wasn't even
an anti Gatso piece. They went to great lengths to defend them in spite of the statistics and
headlines but weren't very convincing.

Russ (hopefully got the name right this time)
 
R

Russ P

Guest
"Robert McDonald" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >......accidents and injuries had risen at sites where speed cameras have been installed in the
> >last 3 or
4
> > years.
>
> I wonder...... How big is the area that they take to include the 'site' of the camera?

200m either side - so it would appear to be people paying too much attention to the camera and their
speedo and too little to the road.

Russ
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:45:11 -0000, "Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Does anyone know of any studies that determine the effect that home delivery has on traffic and the
>environment? There's an argument that home delivery increases traffic because every store sends its
>own 'man in a van' to deliver to the customer whereas when people actually go shopping they often
>consolidate several stores into a single trip.

In our case my wife walks to Waitrose, selects the goods, and if there's too much to go in her
shopping basket on wheels she has them deliver it. Therefore the existence of the home delivery
service has resulted in a 100% reduction of journeys to Waitrose by car, in our household.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:21:54 -0000, "Russ P" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> How big is the area that they take to include the 'site' of the camera?

>200m either side - so it would appear to be people paying too much attention to the camera and
>their speedo and too little to the road.

Don't forget to bame the camera, not the clueless ******** in the car, though ;-)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
P

Paul Smith

Guest
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:11:17 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> How big is the area that they take to include the 'site' of the camera?

>>200m either side - so it would appear to be people paying too much attention to the camera and
>>their speedo and too little to the road.

>Don't forget to bame the camera, not the clueless ******** in the car, though ;-)

Cameras and the policies which support them (and are caused by them) make clueless arseholes. You
did understand that bit didn't you?
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email promoting
intelligent road safety
 
J

Just Zis Guy

Guest
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:20:08 +0000, Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>Cameras and the policies which support them (and are caused by them) make clueless arseholes. You
>did understand that bit didn't you?

Is the wrong answer. A box by the side of the road does not change the nature of the nut behind the
wheel. They will be just as clueless, just as much of an ********, without the camera.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
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