don't have much opinion, but maybe some of you dvmbax3s do

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

http://www.velonews.com/diaries/rider/articles/13897.0.html

 

[Michael Baldwin]

...no opinion however at the total risk of looking real dumb, what does
dvmbax3s reference to?...

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 13, 7:41 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> http://www.velonews.com/diaries/rider/articles/13897.0.html

Well, we already have a rule here that actual pros can't ride
in US age-graded events. But we let non-pros ride both
Elite and Master events.

I would guess that this happens less often in Europe: most of
the Euros riding Euro UCI events would count as professionals.
Maybe there are some who aren't, but even the Czech guys who
rode a big-time event with those "SPONSOR ?" jerseys were
actual high-level pros, by most definitions.
So the issue is partly that there are few actual US
pro cyclocross riders, so a guy like Dwight can ride and
place in US Elite events, yet be amateur enough to compete
at US Masters.

The course, then is clear. If US Masters want Elite riders
(kind of the US equivalent of "Elite zonder kontract")
out of their Masters races, they need to increase sponsorship
of US cyclocross at the Elite level, so all of the fast guys
like Dwight are pros or semi-pros and can't ride in the
Masters race at Nats.

Otherwise, it would seem silly to not let them ride in the
age-graded categories. You'd have to say, Okay, if you
guys want to ride Masters Nats, you have to stay out of
US UCI Elite races to avoid accidentally picking up any
points. (Because the US pro field isn't deep enough to
soak up all the UCI points at a US Elite race.) They could
still ride the non-UCI Elite races and compete in Masters
Nats. We couldn't possibly make a rule that anyone who
rides an Elite race at any time - even some tiny race with
10 guys in the A race and a scorer's table made out of
a Coleman cooler - can't race Masters Nats. Well, we
could, but it would point out the absurdity of the enterprise.

So in the end, even adopting the Euro rule, there would
still be guys who could do Elite (non-UCI) races and then
kick butt at Masters Nats. This is an example of the
First Law of Masters Racing Thermodynamics: No matter
what you do, someone is going to complain.

Ben

 

[Mark Fennell]

bjw wrote:
<snip>
> This is an example of the
> First Law of Masters Racing Thermodynamics: No matter
> what you do, someone is going to complain.

Those that complain about letting the more serious racers enter Masters
events should quit cycling and take up some lame sport like golf or bowling
that handicaps your, err, lameness. How can somebody take himself/herself
seriously wrt to an age-group "championship" that excludes certain riders
because they are too good?!?

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]
egroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On Jan 13, 7:41 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.velonews.com/diaries/rider/articles/13897.0.html
>
> Well, we already have a rule here that actual pros can't ride
> in US age-graded events. But we let non-pros ride both
> Elite and Master events.
>
> I would guess that this happens less often in Europe: most of
> the Euros riding Euro UCI events would count as professionals.
> Maybe there are some who aren't, but even the Czech guys who
> rode a big-time event with those "SPONSOR ?" jerseys were
> actual high-level pros, by most definitions.
> So the issue is partly that there are few actual US
> pro cyclocross riders, so a guy like Dwight can ride and
> place in US Elite events, yet be amateur enough to compete
> at US Masters.
>
> The course, then is clear. If US Masters want Elite riders
> (kind of the US equivalent of "Elite zonder kontract")
> out of their Masters races, they need to increase sponsorship
> of US cyclocross at the Elite level, so all of the fast guys
> like Dwight are pros or semi-pros and can't ride in the
> Masters race at Nats.
>
> Otherwise, it would seem silly to not let them ride in the
> age-graded categories. You'd have to say, Okay, if you
> guys want to ride Masters Nats, you have to stay out of
> US UCI Elite races to avoid accidentally picking up any
> points. (Because the US pro field isn't deep enough to
> soak up all the UCI points at a US Elite race.) They could
> still ride the non-UCI Elite races and compete in Masters
> Nats. We couldn't possibly make a rule that anyone who
> rides an Elite race at any time - even some tiny race with
> 10 guys in the A race and a scorer's table made out of
> a Coleman cooler - can't race Masters Nats. Well, we
> could, but it would point out the absurdity of the enterprise.

This **** makes me dizzy the same way as commutative algebra.

> So in the end, even adopting the Euro rule, there would
> still be guys who could do Elite (non-UCI) races and then
> kick butt at Masters Nats. This is an example of the
> First Law of Masters Racing Thermodynamics: No matter
> what you do, someone is going to complain.

This I understand.

--
Michael Press
new respect

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 13, 11:25 pm, "Mark Fennell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> bjw wrote:

> How can somebody take himself/herself
> seriously wrt to an age-group "championship" that excludes certain riders
> because they are too good?!?
>

dumbass,

the US generally doesn't have a problem with cherry picking (switching
category on a whim) the UCI does and so do most places.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<ca579558-6d91-4e93-a184-b4b71996e868@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 13, 11:25 pm, "Mark Fennell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > bjw wrote:
>
> > How can somebody take himself/herself
> > seriously wrt to an age-group "championship" that excludes certain riders
> > because they are too good?!?
> >
>
> dumbass,
>
> the US generally doesn't have a problem with cherry picking (switching
> category on a whim) the UCI does and so do most places.

That's true, but this seems as much a depth-of-competition issue as a
cherry-picking issue.

In most of the non-Nats races he's attending, the Masters category
probably consists of 5 40-year-olds who used to be awesome, and pack
fill like me (well, in 2008 it will be pack fill like me). He would
annihilate competition like that. But if he steps up to Elite, he's at
least getting some real competition, but he's not going to win.

But there's only about 10 pro CXers competing in the US, so there are
UCI points to be had by non-pro CXers. If you're wondering, this is why
Joachim Parbo was cherry-picking his way through North America this
year: shallow competition = lots of available UCI points = better Worlds
starting position.

Here he is in 43rd place:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/cross.php?id=cross/ranking/2007men

So our hero the Masters rider would never even have this dilemma in
Europe: he couldn't hope to compete in the Pro/Elite division, and there
would be adequate competition in the Masters category, from regional to
international races.

The US system works fairly well for the US, and the Euro system works
fairly well for Europe.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

 

[Bret]

On Jan 14, 11:22 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <ca579558-6d91-4e93-a184-b4b71996e...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jan 13, 11:25 pm, "Mark Fennell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > bjw wrote:
>
> > > How can somebody take himself/herself
> > > seriously wrt to an age-group "championship" that excludes certain riders
> > > because they are too good?!?
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > the US generally doesn't have a problem with cherry picking (switching
> > category on a whim) the UCI does and so do most places.
>
> That's true, but this seems as much a depth-of-competition issue as a
> cherry-picking issue.
>
> In most of the non-Nats races he's attending, the Masters category
> probably consists of 5 40-year-olds who used to be awesome, and pack
> fill like me (well, in 2008 it will be pack fill like me). He would
> annihilate competition like that. But if he steps up to Elite, he's at
> least getting some real competition, but he's not going to win.
>
> But there's only about 10 pro CXers competing in the US, so there are
> UCI points to be had by non-pro CXers. If you're wondering, this is why
> Joachim Parbo was cherry-picking his way through North America this
> year: shallow competition = lots of available UCI points = better Worlds
> starting position.
>
> Here he is in 43rd place:http://www.cyclingnews.com/cross.php?id=cross/ranking/2007men
>
> So our hero the Masters rider would never even have this dilemma in
> Europe: he couldn't hope to compete in the Pro/Elite division, and there
> would be adequate competition in the Masters category, from regional to
> international races.
>
> The US system works fairly well for the US, and the Euro system works
> fairly well for Europe.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau [email protected]://www.wiredcola.com/
> "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
> Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Brandon is much better than you think. He wins elite races in CO and
was 2nd at the State Championships.

http://www.cyclingevents.com/aca_results/ACA_BCR.aspx