Don't mess with squirrels



Jeff Starr writes:

>>> You still missed it. Here, read it from the start.


>>http://tinyurl.com/exkjk


>>I see no picture of the failed hardware? Where?


> There is no picture, just the the thread, including the original
> post. You were talking about fenders, while the op was talking
> about a Trek Madone, with no fenders.


> Do you follow me now?


http://tinyurl.com/exkjk

Do you follow me now?

After reading the vague explanation of a fork failure and subsequent
comments of disbelief, I didn't see the significance of the story and
took it to be some sort of shaggy dog story. The one that showed a
picture was real and consistent with my experience as I explained.

I notice you didn't take others who wondered about the fork failure to
task. I just passed it up rather than get tangled in unknown details.

Jobst Brandt
 
Bill Sornson writes:

>>>> I believe a better heading to this thread would have been "Light
>>>> Weight Fender Hazard" rather than anything about squirrels, there
>>>> being nothing specific about what snags the fender strut and jams
>>>> the wheel. In any case, the picture hurts, both for the rider
>>>> and the animal.


>>> The incident referred to by the OP occurred on a Trek Madone; no
>>> fender involved.


>> The picture I saw looked like this:


http://www.shop.pauldowns.com/UnfortunateSquirrel.html

> Right, but you said the thread's heading was worded wrongly; it wasn't.


I said nothing of the kind. Fortunately it's all right there so you
can review it.

>>> Bill "sorta like that "carbon steerer" you blamed for that mountain
>>> bike crash photo" S.


>> Where's the picture of the incident to which you refer?


> The one from ~10 days ago of the guy whose headtube broke as he was
> descending in a race or event. (Slack chain, squished tire, etc.)
> You immediately claimed it was from a carbon steerer, even though it
> was an "old school" mountain bike.


> Shirley you haven't forgotten? :p


I see you have a memory for such squibs like elephants ("who never
forget").

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Bill Sornson writes:
>
>>>>> I believe a better heading to this thread would have been "Light
>>>>> Weight Fender Hazard" rather than anything about squirrels, there
>>>>> being nothing specific about what snags the fender strut and jams
>>>>> the wheel. In any case, the picture hurts, both for the rider
>>>>> and the animal.

>
>>>> The incident referred to by the OP occurred on a Trek Madone; no
>>>> fender involved.

>
>>> The picture I saw looked like this:

>
> http://www.shop.pauldowns.com/UnfortunateSquirrel.html
>
>> Right, but you said the thread's heading was worded wrongly; it
>> wasn't.

>
> I said nothing of the kind. Fortunately it's all right there so you
> can review it.


OK, help me out here, JB. You wrote (and I quote), "I believe a better
heading to this thread would have been "Light Weight Fender Hazard" rather
than anything about squirrels". Fortunately it's all right there so YOU can
review it! LOL (Hint: I just copied it from a paragraph right at the top
of this.)


>>>> Bill "sorta like that "carbon steerer" you blamed for that mountain
>>>> bike crash photo" S.

>
>>> Where's the picture of the incident to which you refer?

>
>> The one from ~10 days ago of the guy whose headtube broke as he was
>> descending in a race or event. (Slack chain, squished tire, etc.)
>> You immediately claimed it was from a carbon steerer, even though it
>> was an "old school" mountain bike.

>
>> Shirley you haven't forgotten? :p

>
> I see you have a memory for such squibs like elephants ("who never
> forget").


No, I just remember Mr. "I'm never wrong" being wrong a number of times --
ALWAYS sounding so self-assured and then never just admitting an error
afterwards. (Like the chain ring wear claim.) So this thread practically
begged for a snotty remark from you -- something to the effect of "It
couldn't happen like that" -- and sure enough you spoke (no pun) right up
(admittedly, a little late to the party but still on cue).

Maybe someone could photoshop a squirrel into your ubiquitous "leaning ego
pic"?
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Jeff Starr writes:
>
>>>> You still missed it. Here, read it from the start.

>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/exkjk

>
>>> I see no picture of the failed hardware? Where?

>
>> There is no picture, just the the thread, including the original
>> post. You were talking about fenders, while the op was talking
>> about a Trek Madone, with no fenders.

>
>> Do you follow me now?

>
> http://tinyurl.com/exkjk
>
> Do you follow me now?


See to the left? Those numbered posts? See the one numbered...ONE?!? THAT
is the "O.P." in this thread.

HTH, BS
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
> >How is it that the fork legs on his bike were so weak that bones just
> >a few millimeters thick could snap them? Were the fork legs
> >partially cracked already? How could they handle normal use, such as
> >braking, if they were so fragile?

>
> On a fork that uses a caliper brake the braking force gets transmitter right
> by the fork crown, where most forks are pretty beefy. If the squirrel jumped
> near the center of the wheel, it could have hit one of the thin sections of
> the fork. Just a theory, no experiments to back it up.
>
> I once had a squirrel try to jump through my rear wheel during a race. He
> didn't make it all the way through, but someone who was behind me told me he
> flew about 20 feet into the air and then ran off when he hit the ground. I
> didn't crash or feel anything out of the ordinary.


If we're talking about the incident described on this page under the
title "Killer Squirrel stops cyclist dead in his tracks":

http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/squirrels.htm

Then I'm calling rider misperception.

It's possible a little bundle of squirrel skin and vertebrae could have
stopped the front wheel when they stuck in between wheel, brake, and
fork. But I am doubtful.

However, given a circumstance in which a rider was reaching for his
brakes, and then woke up after a few minutes of unconsciousness,
following an externally witnessed endo flip, I think it's reasonable to
guess at a most-likely scenario:

the rider made it to the brakes, overapplied them, and touched the sky.
Fork destruction came as part of the ensuing crash event.

Seriously, I can fully imagine many circumstances in which a fork broke
as part of a violent crash, no squirrel body necessary to destroy it
whatsoever. I can imagine very few circumstances in which a squirrel
could so firmly jam into a fork as to break both fork legs. The
explanations in this thread which I have read, if you'll pardon the
allusion, seem as creatively reasoned as coconut shells in Arthurian
England.

No disrespect meant to any rider who has hit a squirrel and been the
worse for it, but physics says unless you jam your front wheel pretty
decisively, 200 pounds of m and 30 km/h worth of v equals a lot more P
than a few ounces of squirrel is likely to muster.

I note that same squirrel-related web page has a story of a squirrel
which managed to demolish a car traveling at 80 mph. In that case, the
squirrel-impact-stops-vehicle scenario is several magnitudes less
likely, and poorly conceived driving is correctly blamed for the
problem, perhaps also because the squirrel wasn't actually hit.

This reminds me of an odd incident during a club ride a few months back:
as we rode around a tight left corner in a double paceline, another
rider and I, at the front of the line, came together (apparently
tire-to-tire at ground level, as incredible as that is) because I, on
the inside, took a wider line than the outside rider expected (oncoming
car in an undivided roadway). We spooked the hell out of the pack, but I
held my line without deviation (because I am heavy and react slowly in a
disaster) and the other rider rode it out, because he was very
experienced and has good bike-handling skills. I don't think either of
us touched our brakes during the incident, which helped.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> However, given a circumstance in which a rider was reaching for his
> brakes, and then woke up after a few minutes of unconsciousness,
> following an externally witnessed endo flip, I think it's reasonable to
> guess at a most-likely scenario:
>
> the rider made it to the brakes, overapplied them, and touched the sky.
> Fork destruction came as part of the ensuing crash event.
>

Very good point... it is extremely easy to do an endo if the front
brake is applied during a panic situation. Afterwards it wouldn't be
unusual that he didn't know exactly what happened.

Still... it isn't hard for me to imagine that a squirrel getting wedged
in the fork/wheel could supply enough energy to flip a rider as well.
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:


> Seriously, I can fully imagine many circumstances in which a fork broke
> as part of a violent crash, no squirrel body necessary to d estroy it
> whatsoever. I can imagine very few circumstances in which a squirrel
> could so firmly jam into a fork as to break both fork legs. The
> explanations in this thread which I have read, if you'll pardon the
> allusion, seem as creatively rea soned as coconut shells in Arthurian
> England.
>
> No disrespect meant to any rider who has hit a squirrel and been the
> worse for it, but physics says unless you jam your front wheel pretty
> decisively, 200 pounds of m and 30 km/h worth of v equal s a lot more P
> than a few ounces of squirrel is likely to muster.


Lower case p.

For those referring to
< http://www.shop.pauldowns.com/UnfortunateSquirrel.html>, complete
with squirrel penis conveniently wrapped around the tubing,

this picture was posed. Hints: 1) where is the blood and the mayhem? 2)
Look at picture #1 versus picture #2. Different postures, nicely posed.
The guy got a poisoned squirrel and stuck it in there.

Hint #3: where's the description of the incident?
Hint #4: they guy owns/rides? a Pedersen.
<http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/dp_history.shtml>

By the way, from a squirrel's persepective, a bicycle moving fast may
have the appearance of not having any spokes. So a mad dash through the
hoop seems like a typical adolescent stunt. As does the photo above.
 
Bill Sornson writes:

>>>>>> I believe a better heading to this thread would have been
>>>>>> "Light Weight Fender Hazard" rather than anything about
>>>>>> squirrels, there being nothing specific about what snags the
>>>>>> fender strut and jams the wheel. In any case, the picture
>>>>>> hurts, both for the rider and the animal.


>>>>> The incident referred to by the OP occurred on a Trek Madone; no
>>>>> fender involved.


>>>> The picture I saw looked like this:


http://www.shop.pauldowns.com/UnfortunateSquirrel.html

>>> Right, but you said the thread's heading was worded wrongly; it
>>> wasn't.


>> I said nothing of the kind. Fortunately it's all right there so
>> you can review it.


> OK, help me out here, JB. You wrote (and I quote), "I believe a
> better heading to this thread would have been "Light Weight Fender
> Hazard" rather than anything about squirrels". Fortunately it's all
> right there so YOU can review it! LOL (Hint: I just copied it from
> a paragraph right at the top of this.)


>>>>> Bill "sorta like that "carbon steerer" you blamed for that
>>>>> mountain bike crash photo" S.


>>>> Where's the picture of the incident to which you refer?


>>> The one from ~10 days ago of the guy whose headtube broke as he
>>> was descending in a race or event. (Slack chain, squished tire,
>>> etc.) You immediately claimed it was from a carbon steerer, even
>>> though it was an "old school" mountain bike.


>>> Shirley you haven't forgotten? :p


>> I see you have a memory for such squibs like elephants ("who never
>> forget").


> No, I just remember Mr. "I'm never wrong" being wrong a number of
> times -- ALWAYS sounding so self-assured and then never just
> admitting an error afterwards. (Like the chain ring wear claim.)
> So this thread practically begged for a snotty remark from you --
> something to the effect of "It couldn't happen like that" -- and
> sure enough you spoke (no pun) right up (admittedly, a little late
> to the party but still on cue).


Please show where I said "I'm never wrong" as you attribute above. I
think that is something you generated as a straw man that you seem to
be attacking regularly together with a couple of other disgruntled
contributors to wreck.bike.

> Maybe someone could photoshop a squirrel into your ubiquitous
> "leaning ego pic"?


Can you expand on that. What is the "leaning ego pic" that irritates
you and makes you so grumpy?

Jobst Brandt
 
Ron Ruff writes:

>> However, given a circumstance in which a rider was reaching for his
>> brakes, and then woke up after a few minutes of unconsciousness,
>> following an externally witnessed endo flip, I think it's
>> reasonable to guess at a most-likely scenario:


>> the rider made it to the brakes, overapplied them, and touched the
>> sky. Fork destruction came as part of the ensuing crash event.


> Very good point... it is extremely easy to do an endo if the front
> brake is applied during a panic situation. Afterwards it wouldn't be
> unusual that he didn't know exactly what happened.


> Still... it isn't hard for me to imagine that a squirrel getting
> wedged in the fork/wheel could supply enough energy to flip a rider
> as well.


This thing seems to be going in circles. First the squirrel gets
stuck in the rear wheel and the fork breaks off the front of the
bicycle. Then we get a picture of a front fender jam with an
undamaged squirrel threaded into the wheel. Now it's all sorts of
killer squirrel stories coming out of the woodwork.

Besides, all these going over the bars scenarios from braking don't
ring true. Braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel occurs with
concerted hard front wheel braking. It does not occur inadvertently
when a rider gets spooked. If these folks are going over the bars,
it's because they slid off the saddle from not bracing with their
arms. The endo occurs when their thighs hit the bars.

Jobst Brandt
 
ellis wrote:

> Just adding to the plastic bag stories. A friend of mine was doing laps on
> a park lane, going about 25mph, when a squirrel darted out of the bushes and
> into the bike traffic. My friend had no time to brake or even blink before
> the squirrel kamakazed into his back wheel. The poor thing got shredded in
> the spokes and sent my friend airborne a good twelve feet. His Madone was
> totaled, he broke his femur, and the critter was in a hundred little pieces.
> Man, that was one of the worst crashes I've seen on a bike. Avoid small
> game like the plaque when you are on a woodsy road. It was such a freak
> accident, I don't think I would have reacted any differently.
>
>

You've heard the tales of "rats the size of cats" - well, I rounded a
bend once to find this *monster* sat in the middle of the road. I
wasn't going to get too close to it, so I stopped. We spent half a
minute or so staring each other out and then the rat sauntered off into
the bushes, probably to catch a deer for supper or something.
 
ellis wrote:

> Just adding to the plastic bag stories. A friend of mine was doing laps on
> a park lane, going about 25mph, when a squirrel darted out of the bushes and
> into the bike traffic. My friend had no time to brake or even blink before
> the squirrel kamakazed into his back wheel. The poor thing got shredded in
> the spokes and sent my friend airborne a good twelve feet. His Madone was
> totaled, he broke his femur, and the critter was in a hundred little pieces.
> Man, that was one of the worst crashes I've seen on a bike. Avoid small
> game like the plaque when you are on a woodsy road. It was such a freak
> accident, I don't think I would have reacted any differently.
>
>

The US grey critters have invaded Britain to the extent that our
indigneous red squirrels are only found in the far north now.

http://www.theoldministershouse.co.uk/images/red_squirrel_lg.jpg

One of my cats cornered a grey squirrel last year after stalking it for
weeks. Realising it had no escape route, the squirrel went apesh*t and
chased the terrified cat back into our garden. They pack a lot of punch
for their size.
 
[email protected] wrote:

>
> This thing seems to be going in circles.


True, this was not refering to the the OPs scenario.

>
> Besides, all these going over the bars scenarios from braking don't
> ring true. Braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel occurs with
> concerted hard front wheel braking. It does not occur inadvertently
> when a rider gets spooked.


I have done it myself and observed someone else do it... but those were
both cases of impending collision, in which flipping over was probably
no worse a "solution" than what would have happened otherwise. Still,
neither of us were trying to flip... we just wanted to stop... and a
very firm grip on the front brake made that happen instantly.
 
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:41:15 -0500, "Cat Dailey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Did you ever actually hit a squirrel?

>
> At least twice.
>
>> I did once when it ran between my
>>front and back wheels. Trust me, they are not all warm and fuzzy and
>>squishy ;> It was like hitting a BRICK at 25 m.p.h.

>
> You have no credibility if you think a squirrel is like a brick in
> terms of weight or hardness. It's simply not true.
>
> JT
>


JT:

Perhaps you know it all...you've hit every squirrel there is to hit in every
conceivable way. So why bother to even have a discussion at all?

Cat
 
"ellis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Just adding to the plastic bag stories. A friend of mine was doing laps on
>a park lane, going about 25mph, when a squirrel darted out of the bushes and
>into the bike traffic. My friend had no time to brake or even blink before
>the squirrel kamakazed into his back wheel.


I have an similar story. Few months ago I had an encounter with kamikaze dog.
The result:
http://seti.hr.hb-tim.hr/board/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=808&pid=10453

Sorry...tinyurl is down at this moment
 
> When I see a squirrel in the middle of the road deciding
> which way to jump I maintain my line so that the critter
> has the best data for making a good decision. So far the
> rodents have all made the right decision.


This actually makes a lot of sense when you look at the
situation from the squirrel's point of view. Here's this
large "thing" coming at you fast. Obviously it wants
to eat you. So you dodge this way and that to confuse it,
then dart off at the last moment when it's too late for
the predator to react.
 
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:26:27 -0500, "Cat Dailey"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Perhaps you know it all...you've hit every
> squirrel there is to hit in every
>conceivable way.


I don't know it all. But there are certain things that I do know -- a
brick is both heavier and harder than a squirrel. It's simply not
true that hitting on can be like hitting the other. That doesn't
require a vast number of experience to demonstrate.

> So why bother to even have a discussion at all?


And by the way, I'm having this discussion simply because some people
are writing nonsense and I feel obligated to point this out. If
people did not write nonsense, there would be no discussion.



JT

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Bill Sornson wrote:

> See to the left? Those numbered posts? See the one numbered...ONE?!?
> THAT is the "O.P." in this thread.
>
> HTH, BS


Not everyone uses the same newsreader that you do.

HTH, BL

--
Benjamin Lewis

Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
 
Michael Press writes:

> When I see a squirrel in the middle of the road deciding which way
> to jump I maintain my line so that the critter has the best data for
> making a good decision. So far the rodents have all made the right
> decision.


It's not only squirrels (wildlife) where this is a good method. It
works even better with humans who are approaching on foot or a
vehicle. For humans, not making eye contact is important to avoid the
exchange of who should make a move. Looking intently at course you
plan to take, gives the approaching person the responsibility to not
go THERE. In addition, a decisive presence dissuades the opponent
form making unwise moves.

Once on our local super-descent, Page Mill Rd, two of us were moving
fast when two riders came around the tight bend immediately below
Moody Rd, side-by-side on the wrong side. They hadn't seen us yet and
I did not want them crossing in front of us, so using my best command
voice, I barked "Don't move" knowing that their natural reaction would
be to head for the correct side of the road. We streaked between them
with little space to spare.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Ron Ruff writes:
>
>
>>>However, given a circumstance in which a rider was reaching for his
>>>brakes, and then woke up after a few minutes of unconsciousness,
>>>following an externally witnessed endo flip, I think it's
>>>reasonable to guess at a most-likely scenario:

>
>
>>>the rider made it to the brakes, overapplied them, and touched the
>>>sky. Fork destruction came as part of the ensuing crash event.

>
>
>>Very good point... it is extremely easy to do an endo if the front
>>brake is applied during a panic situation. Afterwards it wouldn't be
>>unusual that he didn't know exactly what happened.

>
>
>>Still... it isn't hard for me to imagine that a squirrel getting
>>wedged in the fork/wheel could supply enough energy to flip a rider
>>as well.

>
>
> This thing seems to be going in circles. First the squirrel gets
> stuck in the rear wheel and the fork breaks off the front of the
> bicycle. Then we get a picture of a front fender jam with an
> undamaged squirrel threaded into the wheel. Now it's all sorts of
> killer squirrel stories coming out of the woodwork.
>
> Besides, all these going over the bars scenarios from braking don't
> ring true. Braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel occurs with
> concerted hard front wheel braking. It does not occur inadvertently
> when a rider gets spooked. If these folks are going over the bars,
> it's because they slid off the saddle from not bracing with their
> arms. The endo occurs when their thighs hit the bars.
>
> Jobst Brandt


There is also the possibility that they went over the bars with arms
braced. I practice this maneuver on my road bike and know it is
possilbe (and even more so with "dual pivot" brakes"). It doesn't only
happen when the knees hit the bars.

Robin Hubert
 
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:26:27 -0500, "Cat Dailey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Perhaps you know it all...you've hit every
> > squirrel there is to hit in every
> >conceivable way.

>
> I don't know it a ll. But there are certain things that I do know -- a
> brick is both heavier and harder than a squirrel. It's simply not
> true that hitting on can be like hitting the other. That doesn't
> require a vast number of experience to demonstrate.


Don't be so sure- the Cat may know her squirrels after all. "Like"-
what exactly does that mean? Consider the fake photo of the squirrel
threaded through the Pedersen. In fact the crumpled thin plastic fender
was the culprit. A thin plastic fender isn't as heavy or as hard as a
brick either, but if it gets crumpled into compression, it can lock the
wheel equally well. As could a well-placed wad of paper on a frame with
tight clearances.

I don't know eactly what accident the Cat was describing, or for that
matter what type of impact with a brick, but until she does, if I were
skeptical enough and cared enough, I would first inquire for more
details before pontificating.


> > So why bother to even have a discussion at all?

>
> And by the way, I'm having this discussion simply because some people
> are writing nonsense and I feel obligated to point this out. If
> people did not write nonsense, there would be no discussion.

à