Doping -- Le Monde editorial

"Ken Prager" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being left-of-center.

Somebody here is pretty off-center. And stupid as well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven daily newspapers, ranging
from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is
definitely on the left of that spectrum.

Quoted message said:

Meaningless nonetheless.

I was talking, as was the earlier poster, about the New York Times.

Ken Prager said:

Quoted message said:

Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the "Intimidator". It is
not surprising that you have been nearly run down by fans with 3 car stickers. This type of
Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive
style of driving which made Dale famous.

Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in third place to ensure they would
not come in second. Dumbass Dale owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.

Dumbass Dale died.

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

"Arthur Ogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
>
> Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Times is left-of-center.
>

"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven

daily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

newspapers, ranging from Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to l'Humanite (Communist).
Le Monde is definitely on the left of that

spectrum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Meaningless nonetheless.

I was talking, as was the earlier poster, about the New York Times.

well if you really think the NY Times is only viewed as "left wing" because of a "right wing
conspiracy" I suggest you need to adjust your medication.

Ed-D said:

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

Yah. I heard Rush Limbaugh say so just the other day.

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint

the

Quoted message said:

achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that you have neither the
context nor the history to evaluate the article. Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't
really consider the TdF to be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter who won. Le Monde made a
huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the
pot belge case in Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and everything to do with the way
cycling is perceived in France by the French, and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le
Monde is anti-*cycling.*

I know it's simpler to view everything that happens in the world as pro-American or anti-American
and it's simpler to view everything as left-wing or right-wing but, in this instance, you've been
led astray by not doing your homework, dumbass.

"Lindsay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken Prager said:

Quoted message said:

Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Intimidator". It is not surprising that you have been nearly run down

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fans with 3 car stickers. This type of Earnhardt fan is no doubt

expressing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style of

driving

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which made Dale famous.

Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in third place to ensure they
would not come in second. Dumbass Dale owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.

Or trying to ensure they wouldn't come in third. 1st and 2nd were way ahead (considering it was the
last lap).

You're right though. Dumbass move.

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society is extremely polarised:
people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but not both.

I read Le Monde and L'Equipe -- but then I sort of enjoy the buzz that cognitive dissonance brings.

"trg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Le Monde has several articles recently insinuating doping with absolutely no links to back it up
other than this idea that they're going so fast that they must be doping (overlooking about 20
other cumulative effects that could explain faster speeds.) It's quite tiresome.

There is a similar phenomenon happening now in Track and Field in which Paula Radcliffe is now being
suspected of doping due to her world records in the marathon, when she had previously been the most
outspoken person against doping. There is absolutely no evidence against her, of course.

-ilan

Ed-D said:

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge

that the

Quoted message said:

Times is left-of-center.

Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of the thousands of employees at the
Times takes a little liberal truth test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that you have neither the
context nor the history to evaluate the article. Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't
really consider the TdF to be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter who won. Le Monde made
a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even
the pot belge case in Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and everything to do with the
way cycling is perceived in France by the French, and who promotes cycling in France to the
French, Le Monde is anti-*cycling.*

A completely correct analysis, in my opinion.

Things may changing though. I was at the bookstore "L'Ecume des Pages" which is adjacent to the Cafe
de Flore where the pretentious royalty of French Intellectualism used to congregate (Sartre, Simone
de Beauvoir, and now BHL = Bernard Henri Levy, unknown outside France, but successor to Sartre, and
"rock star" philosopher married to screen diva Arielle Dombasle) and the salesman was loudly going
off about Beloki's crash and Armstrong's amazing save.

-ilan

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you have neither the context nor the history to evaluate the article. Perhaps this has escaped
you but the French don't really consider the

TdF to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be an American event.

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no

matter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who won. Le Monde made a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the

Giro

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even the pot belge case in Perpignan (which was an
inconsequential trial connected to French

*amateur*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and everything to do with the
way cycling is perceived in France by the

French,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and who promotes cycling in France to the French, Le Monde is anti-*cycling.*

A completely correct analysis, in my opinion.

Things may changing though. I was at the bookstore "L'Ecume des Pages" which is adjacent to the
Cafe de Flore where the pretentious royalty of French Intellectualism used to congregate (Sartre,
Simone de Beauvoir, and now BHL = Bernard Henri Levy, unknown outside France, but successor to
Sartre, and "rock star" philosopher married to screen diva Arielle Dombasle) and the salesman was
loudly going off about Beloki's crash and Armstrong's amazing save.

By the way, Sartre wasn't against cycling. Not at all. In 1948 he even gave his expert opinion on
coming the Tour de France in a French newspaper.

Benjo Maso

"Jay Hill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Common knowledge among whom? Dittoheads? So you think every one of the thousands of employees at
the Times takes a little liberal truth test and swears fealty to Jesse Jackson & Hillary Clinton?

So you think "every one of the thousands of employees at the Times" has anything whatsoever to say
about editorial content? Consider the full political spectrum of print media in the States and the
editorial bent of the NYT will indeed fall left of center. Arguing about to what extent is really
not proper fodder for this NG, and besides; so what? That just degenerates into yet another
variation of "I'm normal and you're not." [censored], if we were normal, we'd all be doing something
useful instead of reading RBR. Like watching Regis and Whoever.

So - let's get back to proper RBR stuff like whether LA's a doper and whether Bobke and Kirsten were
hitting it in the TDF.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D

Quoted message said:

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has

numerous axes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the

main forces

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Quoted message said:

The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to reflect the biases of the writers
or the paper as a whole.

The comment above is noting that the paper has certain "issues", but has no reference to the actual
article. I wonder whether the poster even read
it. That's why I made my comment.

Quoted message said:

JT

Quoted message said:

--
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Quoted message said:

Visit jt10000.comjt10000.comOpen ↗
*******************************************

Ed-D said:

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood

testing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an accusation, the article
> notes that the average speed of stage winners

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year

preceding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.
>
> The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions were ideal this
> year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or

(2)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play. The official TdF
> line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not disputed, since they are essentially a
> public record.
>
> For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
> well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum

newspaper

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

Quoted message said:

well if you say so....

Remembering that it was the NYT that parratted everything that United Fruit and the Pentagon stated
about Guatemala in the 1950's, remembering how the NYT fired Pulitzer Prize winner Sydney Schanberg
for taking on the biggest landlords in NYC in his OpEd columns, I'd say they left wing is hardly a
description for the Ochs/Sulzberger families' holding. Recently, they were extremely quiet about
false claims concerning Iraq.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> (rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

Quoted message said:

That is true.

Quoted message said:

> I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to

grind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> with the TdF.
>

Quoted message said:

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous

axes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and Americans in general. If
I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main

forces

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Quoted message said:

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint the achievements of
Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

I pointed out that it was clear this comment had no knowledge of the content of the Le Monde
article. It is good to read articles before assassinating their messengers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the

box

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour trop vite?" Right
> now it seems to be the second article listed, and for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English version, but I know
> there are at least a few francophones out there who might find this of interest...
>
> ------------
>
>

Robert Chung said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint

the

Quoted message said:

achievements of Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

Quoted message said:

You think the basis for the article was anti-Americanism?? This shows that you have neither the
context nor the history to evaluate the article. Perhaps this has escaped you but the French don't
really consider the TdF to be an American event.

Quoted message said:

The article would almost certainly have been written the same way no matter who won. Le Monde made
a huge deal about the Festina affair, and the Giro doping raids, and the Rumsas affair, and even
the pot belge case in Perpignan (which was an inconsequential trial connected to French *amateur*
racing). For reasons that have nothing to do with anti-Americanism and everything to do with the
way cycling is perceived in France by the French, and who promotes cycling in France to the
French, Le Monde is anti-*cycling.*

Quoted message said:

I know it's simpler to view everything that happens in the world as pro-American or anti-American
and it's simpler to view everything as left-wing or right-wing but, in this instance, you've been
led astray by not doing your homework, dumbass.

Perhaps he has a #3 decal on his bike?

Lindsay said:

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:18:25 -0700, Ken Prager <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the "Intimidator". It is
not surprising that you have been nearly run down by fans with 3 car stickers. This type of
Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive
style of driving which made Dale famous.

Quoted message said:

Dale died pulling an idiot move trying to block someone who was in third place to ensure they
would not come in second. Dumbass Dale owned the cars that were in 1st and 2nd place at the time.

Quoted message said:

Dumbass Dale died.

Please, here we need proper ettiquette. THe proper term is "Dumb Ass"...

Quoted message said:

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

Quoted message said:

P.J. O'Rourke

Ed-D said:

Quoted message said:

the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this year is the fastest on record,
even faster than in 1997, the year preceding the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably
widespread.

2003 : 3427 km ( cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗ )
2004 : 3942 km ( cyclingnews.comtour.phpOpen ↗ )

"Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

Quoted message said:

the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year

preceding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

2003 : 3427 km ( cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗ )
1997 : 3942 km (

cyclingnews.comtour.phpOpen ↗ )

Quoted message said:

Average speed 1997: 39,273
2003: 40,956

A difference of almost 1,7 km/h. Only a little bit more than between 1997 and 1962 (4272 km, average
speed 37,304).

Benjo Maso

Robert Chung schreef:

" you've been led astray by not doing your homework, dumbass.

I have been tempted to say Dumbass many times recently.

Eventually I will, to defend Kurgan and RBR Values.