Dr C. TSS, PMC, and recovery concern

[TiMan]

Yes, but again, you're assuming that it is the absolute stress that matters, not the relative stress (strain, actually).

I am not saying it is that absolute" stress THAT matters...I am saying that the absolute stress DOES matter....and it cannot be disregarded by just looking at relative stress.

I think you are saying that it is only relative stress that matters.

The same relative stress carries with it a higher absolute stress....as one gets stronger and stronger.
The body adapts....but the fact that it slows adaptation as you get stronger and stronger proves that the absolute stress is a very important component in adaptation and recovery.
We strive to reach "relative stress loads" and by reaching the relative we see progress....but the absolute load remains and grows and becomes more and more of a factor in recovery the stronger we get and the closer we get to our genetic limit. Is that not the main reason why we eventually stop progressing...we can no longer adapt to the relative stress because the absolute is too high?



Andy, you can honestly say that a man at or near his maximum genetic potential at say 400 watts ftp and 160 pound body mass will have no greater difficulty recovering from a one hour 100 TSS effort than when he did the same effort at 100 watts less?

 

[beerco]

Andy, you can honestly say that a man at or near his maximum genetic potential at say 400 watts ftp and 160 pound body mass will have no greater difficulty recovering from a one hour 100 TSS effort than when he did the same effort at 100 watts less?

Different Andy here, but I'd say yes. As you get more fit, a single bout of effort has less positive and negative impact on your short term fitness (i.e. your ATL time constant increases as you get more fit).

I'd go as far as saying that the guy who's improved his FTP by 100w or 25% will recover faster from a one hour FTP bout than he would have 100w ago because his CTL would almost certainly be much higher than it was when he was at 300w FTP.

For examples, please observe pro's riding TT's and then winning stages the very next day (e.g. LA in whatever year there was an Alpe d'Huez finish followed by Chamruse uphill TT).

 

[Alex Simmons]

My own experience FWIW (a sub-100 CTL Masters rider):

I'm now closer to my genetic potential than I've ever been as I'm fitter than I've ever been (in FTP terms - an improvement of ~30% over a number of years and I still expect to improve on that season by season).

I would definitely recover better from a higher average power TT nowdays (or indeed shorter more intense efforts like pursuits) than I did when I was further from my genetic potential. Indeed I can back up and repeat efforts (same or following day) wheras before that would have been in the realm of fantasyland for me.

But perhaps we are talking a different realm of CTL here.

 

[frenchyge]

The only connection with absolute power that I can see is that as more wattage is being produced there is simply more glycogen that needs to be replenished and more kcals that must be processed to accomplish this. I'm not sure if endurance training improves the rate at which food can be processed and stored within the muscles (or whether that rate can be increased as significantly as power production can), but maybe that could be seen as requiring more time for recovery from an equal IF/TSS workout.

 

[Quadsweep]

For examples, please observe pro's riding TT's and then winning stages the very next day (e.g. LA in whatever year there was an Alpe d'Huez finish followed by Chamruse uphill TT).

drugs?

Anyway, I have found it harder and harder to recover as I progress in power, for sure.

 

[rr9876]

I am not saying it is that absolute" stress THAT matters...I am saying that the absolute stress DOES matter....and it cannot be disregarded by just looking at relative stress.

Can you name some of the specific absolute stresses that you are thinking about here? I think you mentioned joint/connective tissue stresses, but I would think that (unlike in powerlifting) the forces in cycling are low enough that 400W vs 300W wouldn't make mutch of a difference here.

Others have mentioned the greater caloric consumption at higher wattages, but I think that this could be largely overcome by proper and diligent nutrition pre post and during training.

The only other thing I can think of is greater heat stress for the higher wattage rider. I'm not really sure if this would be significant or not, although I have a feeling it might be, at least when training indoors or outside above, say, 85F or so. Again, I would think recovery times here could be equalized through proper hydration.

What are some of the other absolute stresses that you have in mind?

 

[TiMan]

Can you name some of the specific absolute stresses that you are thinking about here? I think you mentioned joint/connective tissue stresses, but I would think that (unlike in powerlifting) the forces in cycling are low enough that 400W vs 300W wouldn't make mutch of a difference here.

Others have mentioned the greater caloric consumption at higher wattages, but I think that this could be largely overcome by proper and diligent nutrition pre post and during training.

The only other thing I can think of is greater heat stress for the higher wattage rider. I'm not really sure if this would be significant or not, although I have a feeling it might be, at least when training indoors or outside above, say, 85F or so. Again, I would think recovery times here could be equalized through proper hydration.

What are some of the other absolute stresses that you have in mind?

Greater total stress on the body...operating closer to it's natural maximum potential.....like a car running on nitro compared to high octane gasoline.

Increased cellular metabolism, increased cellular waste products,increased free radical production, increased neuromuscular stress, higher levels of catecholamine hormones, epinephrine (aka: Adrenaline) and norepinephrine (aka: Noradrenaline), and the glucocorticoid hormones, cortisol and cortisone.

Recovery results but adaptation slows....and slows ...and slows the closer one gets to his genetic limit. Eventually, no matter how well we have adapted to greater loads and no matter how particular we are with recovery the body comes to the point of just recovering and that's it... and SURVIVES the increasing onslaught and cannot adapt.




There is going to be more absolute "stress"( I like that word the most ) on a 160 pound body doing a 100TSS ride in one hour than when the same ride was done by the same man at 100 watts less. The body is dealing with a higher absolute stress.



The relative stress of this ride is the same....HR is the same....blood lactate levels probably the same...(TSS the same).... BUT progress slows as we come closer and closer to our genetic limit...and then it stops. This is because although the relative stress does not change the absolute stress does and the body has a progressively harder time dealing with it via RECOVERY and ADAPTATION.

It is absolutely clear to me as a coach that the more advanced a rider gets the more load is required to elicit adaptation, but also the more difficult it is for that rider to recover from the load and to realize that adaptation.
Once a rider is advanced he is at greater risk of overtraining than when he was less advanced....due to the greater absolute stress..total load.

Last year MR. Cat 1 did 800 TSS weeks and managed them but this year he is having trouble with recovery with the exact same 800TSS week schedule even though he carefully manipulated his load with the PMC... why....it's because he is now has a 400 FTP and last year he had a 370.


I am not saying that it is absolute" stress THAT matters...I am saying that the absolute stress DOES matter....and it cannot be disregarded by just looking at relative stress.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Greater total stress on the body...operating closer to it's natural maximum potential.....like a car running on nitro compared to high octane gasoline.
Last year MR. Cat 1 did 800 TSS weeks and managed them but this year he is having trouble with recovery with the exact same 800TSS week schedule even though he carefully manipulated his load with the PMC... why....it's because he is now has a 400 FTP and last year he had a 370.

i work/have worked with a wide range of people from people at the lower category end to world class riders, and in all the instances that i can think of at this point in time, the fitter riders (as defined either by category, world placings or MAP and FTP) recover more quickly than the less fit riders. They can generally also reach a higher CTL (i.e., greater TSS) (although this maybe because full time riders can ride more than people who have to work etc).

on a personal level i note i recover quicker and can get to higher CTL when i'm compared to less fit.

ric

 

[rmur17]

Greater total stress on the body...operating closer to it's natural maximum potential.....like a car running on nitro compared to high octane gasoline.

Increased cellular metabolism, increased cellular waste products,increased free radical production, increased neuromuscular stress, higher levels of catecholamine hormones, epinephrine (aka: Adrenaline) and norepinephrine (aka: Noradrenaline), and the glucocorticoid hormones, cortisol and cortisone.

Recovery results but adaptation slows....and slows ...and slows the closer one gets to his genetic limit. Eventually, no matter how well we have adapted to greater loads and no matter how particular we are with recovery the body comes to the point of just recovering and that's it... and SURVIVES the increasing onslaught and cannot adapt.




There is going to be more absolute "stress"( I like that word the most ) on a 160 pound body doing a 100TSS ride in one hour than when the same ride was done by the same man at 100 watts less. The body is dealing with a higher absolute stress.



The relative stress of this ride is the same....HR is the same....blood lactate levels probably the same...(TSS the same).... BUT progress slows as we come closer and closer to our genetic limit...and then it stops. This is because although the relative stress does not change the absolute stress does and the body has a progressively harder time dealing with it via RECOVERY and ADAPTATION.

It is absolutely clear to me as a coach that the more advanced a rider gets the more load is required to elicit adaptation, but also the more difficult it is for that rider to recover from the load and to realize that adaptation.
Once a rider is advanced he is at greater risk of overtraining than when he was less advanced....due to the greater absolute stress..total load.

Last year MR. Cat 1 did 800 TSS weeks and managed them but this year he is having trouble with recovery with the exact same 800TSS week schedule even though he carefully manipulated his load with the PMC... why....it's because he is now has a 400 FTP and last year he had a 370.


I am not saying that it is absolute" stress THAT matters...I am saying that the absolute stress DOES matter....and it cannot be disregarded by just looking at relative stress.

Timan,
I think most of the experienced TSS (and PMS) users disagree with your stance here as do I but there's often good value in your postings.

Something comes to mind and that's the composition of your CAT1's 800 TSS weeks. Is he doing more high intensity work: upper L4/5/6/7 than last year? I believe it's possible pure TSS understates high-intensity work. How does his CTL compare? Has he focused on raising FTP to the detriment of overall training load. I've been there believe me! What about racing frequency, diet, extraneous work/life stress? So many things can foul the machine.

For the past few years, the ONLY time I've had trouble recovering on a systematic basis is when I've let my CTL drop too low. Last instance was in winter 2004 where I became too enamoured with ~20MP focus training. I obtained a nice boost in my short-term L4 power but also developed an incredible duration 'cliff' which I proceeded to fall off the remainder of the season Funny now but I was too stubborn/inexperienced and perhaps didn't have the correct big-picture (CTL!!!) at the time (CTL around 70 versus an average in-season of 130 last year and 110 right now) to correct it.

 

[TiMan]

Something comes to mind and that's the composition of your CAT1's 800 TSS weeks. Is he doing more high intensity work: upper L4/5/6/7 than last year? I believe it's possible pure TSS understates high-intensity work. How does his CTL compare? Has he focused on raising FTP to the detriment of overall training load. I've been there believe me! What about racing frequency, diet, extraneous work/life stress? So many things can foul the machine.

Good points and you have hit on a good point that I will concede to and after comparing some files....I have overlooked the intensity of the week in the two examples I am looking at right now. But the change was not that big.

You have hit on an important issue....
Your comment that possibly TSS underestimates high-intensity work is correct in my opinion..all TSS is not the same. But rmur17......can you see then how someone with the same TSS and CTL will have a harder time with recovery.

I will stand by my finding that the more advanced a rider gets, the closer he gets to his genetic limit, the harder it is for him to recover and the easier it is for him to overtrain, due to higher absolute stress. This is evidenced by slower and slower adaptation and greater and greater fatigue in an attempt to push the adaptation.

 

[beerco]

I will stand by my finding that the more advanced a rider gets, the closer he gets to his genetic limit, the harder it is for him to recover and the easier it is for him to overtrain, due to higher absolute stress. This is evidenced by slower and slower adaptation and greater and greater fatigue in an attempt to push the adaptation.

This still doesn't gel for me, mainly because you must supply a long term context or CTL for any statement of that sort to make sense.

e.g. Take an athlete with a CTL of 50, ATL of 50 and TSB of 0. After seven 100tss days, that athlete will have a TSB of -24. Now take an athlete with a CTL of 100, ATL of 100 and TSB of 0. Where does their TSB end up after seven 100tss days?

The point is that it's not possible to get near your genetic limit without building your CTL to a high level. With your CTL at a high level, 100 TSS workouts have a much smaller impact on TSB.

If you don't believe that, I guess one would have to pitch the whole PMC/TSS model. (which I wouldn't recommend because it's based on experimentally validated models).

 

[TiMan]

This still doesn't gel for me, mainly because you must supply a long term context or CTL for any statement of that sort to make sense.

e.g. Take an athlete with a CTL of 50, ATL of 50 and TSB of 0. After seven 100tss days, that athlete will have a TSB of -24. Now take an athlete with a CTL of 100, ATL of 100 and TSB of 0. Where does their TSB end up after seven 100tss days?

The point is that it's not possible to get near your genetic limit without building your CTL to a high level. With your CTL at a high level, 100 TSS workouts have a much smaller impact on TSB.

If you don't believe that, I guess one would have to pitch the whole PMC/TSS model. (which I wouldn't recommend because it's based on experimentally validated models).

The statement that you quoted from me doesn't contradict the above at all beerco.
Of course greater stress is needed...more TSS...higher CLT...to see continued improvement. But you can't just look at TSS and CTL in a relative stress way...you have to be aware of the climbing absolute stress.
It gets harder to adapt and get stronger the more advanced you get beerco....you are nearer the point of no returns.
Thats why so many really good riders turn to drugs if they want to be a top international pro and make any "real" money....they can no longer adapt and get stronger...they "just" recover and that's it and the body cannot get any stronger with the resources it has....and many times they just keep hammering away until they don't even recover and end up overtrained and going backwards.

 

[Felt_Rider]

The statement that you quoted from me doesn't contradict the above at all beerco.
Of course greater stress is needed...more TSS...higher CLT...to see continued improvement. But you can't just look at TSS and CTL in a relative stress way...you have to be aware of the climbing absolute stress.
It gets harder to adapt and get stronger the more advanced you get beerco....you are nearer the point of no returns.
Thats why so many really good riders turn to drugs if they want to be a top international pro and make any "real" money....they can no longer adapt and get stronger...they "just" recover and that's it and the body cannot get any stronger with the resources it has....and many times they just keep hammering away until they don't even recover and end up overtrained and going backwards.


Come on Ric...Andy....you guys know this...you know that as an athlete approaches his natural max gains slow down because it gets harder for him to recover and adapt to the higher and higher load.

My first thoughts were in agreement with Ric, but this post just triggered some deeper thoughts that you may be correct.

 

[TiMan]

My first thoughts were in agreement with Ric, but this post just triggered some deeper thoughts that you may be correct.

In all fairness Ric was not contradicting my last statements.....he was arguing that an 800 TSS week cannot be more stressful for a man as he gets stronger..ie: has a 400 watt FTP compared to last years 370.

I think it can, due to absolute stress...he thinks it can't due to the relative stress and it becomes more evident as the rider gets close to his maximum genetic potential. But as rmur17 said we have to look back and "see" if that 800 TSS was all done in the same manner...if it was accomplished with more intense work then it will indeed likely be harder to recover from.



So as rmur17 touched upon it is probable and in my opinion "a given" that 800 TSS per week can be made easier to recover from or harder to recover from based on intensity or lack there of.

I can do 800 TSS all L3 and up...or I can do 800 TSS with all L2....which do you think is harder on the body...more difficult to recover from?


Which brings me back to this....100 TSS done in a hour is more difficult to recover from than 100 TSS done in 2 hours. Glycogen depletion may be the same or almost so but there is no to it than that.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I think it can, due to absolute stress...he thinks it can't due to the relative stress and it becomes more evident as the rider gets close to his maximum genetic potential. But as rmur17 said we have to look back and "see" if that 800 TSS was all done in the same manner...if it was accomplished with more intense work then it will indeed likely be harder to recover from.

I suppose the thought that was triggered for me was more on the impact of stress regarding natural hormonal levels. Increased ongoing stress toward peaking potentially raising cortisol levels and lowering growth hormone and testosterone levels making recovery more difficult. It was just a thought that I was entertaining.

 

[TiMan]

I suppose the thought that was triggered for me was more on the impact of stress regarding natural hormonal levels. Increased ongoing stress toward peaking potentially raising cortisol levels and lowering growth hormone and testosterone levels making recovery more difficult. It was just a thought that I was entertaining.

Ya good point! I forgot to mention TESTOSTERONE! I have client that has crashed his T level down for a year as evidenced by NO SEX DRIVE... and is now on T replacement therapy as it was tested last month at 120ng/dl REALLY low....happened as he hit an advanced status of over 5 watts per kilo of FTP.
He was having a harder time recovering from THE SAME TSS/ CTL as last year when his FTP was a fair bit LOWER, obviously due to low Testosterone...but I ask you all>>>what caused this drop. The doctor said it was his increased training.
By the way he was watching his PMC like a hawk.

His growth hormone level was way down too but his doctor said she wishes to wait to see if the Testosterone replacement therapy will raise his GH level.
The guys is only 32 years old!

Then there are more of these hormones below... and other "things" as well ....as absolute stress becomes more of an issue with a rider.

Increased cellular metabolism, increased cellular waste products,increased free radical production, increased neuromuscular stress, higher levels of catecholamine hormones, epinephrine (aka: Adrenaline) and norepinephrine (aka: Noradrenaline), and the glucocorticoid hormones, cortisol and cortisone.

 

[Felt_Rider]

See the Link

I love the topic of intense training, recovery and peaking

 

[beerco]

The statement that you quoted from me doesn't contradict the above at all beerco.

Ahh...I think I see the issue now - we're having a failure to communicate I think. I believe that what you're really trying to say is that maintaining a high CTL makes it harder for him to recover and the easier it is for him to overtrain.

We've found that max CTL is in the 125 to 150/d range. Maintaining that high a CTL even on 6 or 7 days riding a week is very tough and in that case I agree with the "revised" version of your statement I posted.

However, to the earlier point, if you've got a CTL of 125 to 150/d, doing an hour at FTP is going to sting a lot less than when you had a CTL of 50 or 60. (in fact, it will be 'easier' than your typical daily workout)

 

[Felt_Rider]

Ya good point! I forgot to mention TESTOSTERONE! I have client that has crashed his T level down for a year as evidenced by NO SEX DRIVE... and is now on T replacement therapy as it was tested last month at 120ng/dl REALLY low....happened as he hit an advanced status of over 5 watts per kilo of FTP.
He was having a harder time recovering from THE SAME TSS/ CTL as last year when his FTP was a fair bit LOWER, obviously due to low Testosterone...but I ask you all>>>what caused this drop. The doctor said it was his increased training.
By the way he was watching his PMC like a hawk.

His growth hormone level was way down too but his doctor said she wishes to wait to see if the Testosterone replacement therapy will raise his GH level.
The guys is only 32 years old!

Then there are more of these hormones below... and other "things" as well ....as absolute stress becomes more of an issue with a rider.

Increased cellular metabolism, increased cellular waste products,increased free radical production, increased neuromuscular stress, higher levels of catecholamine hormones, epinephrine (aka: Adrenaline) and norepinephrine (aka: Noradrenaline), and the glucocorticoid hormones, cortisol and cortisone.

While I don't know the answer to your client I do like how you are looking deeply into these things concerning your clients.
Too often I speak with coaches/consultants/trainers that don't really care to go that deeply looking for answers to help resolve issues concerning increased performance. Like you I keep searching and learning.

 

[TiMan]

Ahh...I think I see the issue now - we're having a failure to communicate I think. I believe that what you're really trying to say is that maintaining a high CTL makes it harder for him to recover and the easier it is for him to overtrain.
We've found that max CTL is in the 125 to 150/d range. Maintaining that high a CTL even on 6 or 7 days riding a week is very tough and in that case I agree with the "revised" version of your statement I posted.

YES!... because the absolute stress is greater. One can't just look at relative stress and forget about absolute . If progression was linear forever then we could but it isn't....it slows more and more as we appraoch natural max.

However, to the earlier point, if you've got a CTL of 125 to 150/d, doing an hour at FTP is going to sting a lot less than when you had a CTL of 50 or 60. (in fact, it will be 'easier' than your typical daily workout)

Yes........but what if his CLT was the same and he was putting out 30 more watts at FTP? Most guys don't increase CTL much after the firsts couple years of serious training due to having a real job...and they get stronger. Lets say last year a rider had a 300 FTP and now he has a 330....with the same CTL( happens due to smarter training ie: more threshold work ). Then the one hour FTP effort is going to be harder to recover from now...with the higher FTP....due to absolute stress.

Or what about the pro that is managing the most he can tolerate in TSS/CTL and doing this for years on end but increases his FTP by 50 watts....that 100 TSS effort in one hour is going to take more "toll" on his recuperative powers now, compared to when he had 50 watts less.