Driver license test - questions about peds & cyclists?

[dave]

Euan wrote:
> "Bleve" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>Maybe the 30km/h thing is a big factor? I'd doubt if more questions on
>>a test would change anyone's agressive driving behaviour.
>
>
> No, but at least everyone on the roads will know what the rules are.
> Heck there are policemen out there who don't know it's legal for
> cyclists to ride to abreast. That is appalling.
>
>
>>And, as much as I don't like it, seperating cars from bikes and bikes
>>from pedestrians makes it safer for us (bikes). Takes us out of the
>>firing line. But, so does sitting inside watching TV while riding a
>>spin trainer. Not an alternative I fancy much.
>
>
> It's only slightly riskier riding a bike than it is to drive a car and
> walking's riskier than riding a bike. Where's the justification for
> separating bikes from cars, especially as riding get safer as more per
> capita ride and there's more per capita riding.

I do absolutely agree with Euan. And who says you are out of the
firing line? Sheesh. Any idea how many peds get skittled by cars..
when they are on the footpath? Its significant. People have been
killed in their beds. In kindergartens.

Incidently I will bet that no one has ever been killed by a cyclist
crashing into their house. (might limit that to in australia tho)

The things that you think are dangerous often are not the things that
are dangerous. THe safest sport in Australia is supposed to be target
shooting. The most dangerous mainstream sport Lawn Bowles. (The most
dangerous sport is supposed to be cave diving with 1 in 10 people killed
every year.. but that just shows that occasionally what looks dangerous
really is

Dave

 

[Aeek]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:14:28 +1100, cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:

>Learners online here: http://tinyurl.com/jewn8
>Despite never holding a license, I scored 30 out of 32. The closest I

Beat me with a license, 29/32 - mind you, blood alchohol on P's.
I've never had P's.

A much better test than the NSW one I tried last year.
The question on delaying your indicating left to avoid confusion was a gem.
(2 adjacent lefts.)

um, I do half cross double white lines to overtake cyclists when I can see,
or when signalled by a club member to do so. THEY can see past the crest.
The speed differential creates the space.
Then again, there's many a dashed line that I am "You are kidding" when
I'm waiting to pass another car. Maybe on a motobikkie?

OTOH the number of drivers who scare me(cyclist) by RHS overtaking just before a crest,
even though I am far left. Giving me excess space at the risk of a headon. Sheesh.

Andre

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Incidently I will bet that no one has ever been killed by a cyclist
> crashing into their house. (might limit that to in australia tho)

My dad got a hole in his fibro wall from a motorcyclist -- a postie
bike

--
TimC
> It was... weird. Death was smaller than I imagined
I have nothing to say, I just can't resist quoting this out of context.
-- Steve VanDevenver replying to Satya on ASR

 

[dave]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>>Incidently I will bet that no one has ever been killed by a cyclist
>>crashing into their house. (might limit that to in australia tho)
>
>
> My dad got a hole in his fibro wall from a motorcyclist -- a postie
> bike
>
Its a fair bet someone on a motorcycle has done it Rare but.

You know how the lanesplitting law will add only minimally to the time
we take to complete a journey? (yes thats what the proposal says)

Well it would add about 3 hours to this guys 10 minute journey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MtXymQkjs&search=motorcycle

Thats wot? lots of %

Dave

 

[dave]

rooman wrote:
<snip>
>
> I also want to see any driver invloved in hitting a cyclist required to
> ride a bike under supervision on the road for three months logged before
> they can drive again...
>
>

Yes. I love it. And let em have a motorbike licence back first. Then
a LOW powered car. And make em wait for the Pajaro.

Dave

 

[Parbs]

TimC wrote:
>
> My dad got a hole in his fibro wall from a motorcyclist -- a postie
> bike
>
So it seems being hit by traffic is a C family trait

Parbs

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-20, Parbs (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> TimC wrote:
>>
>> My dad got a hole in his fibro wall from a motorcyclist -- a postie
>> bike
>>
> So it seems being hit by traffic is a C family trait

Oh, he had a lot of two wheel stories, motorised and not.

I wish I was interested in cycling when he was still alive -- could
have asked him all sorts of questions about racing.

--
TimC
I don't want Perl to be beautiful -- I want you to write
beautiful programs in Perl. --Larry Wall

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> You know how the lanesplitting law will add only minimally to the time
> we take to complete a journey? (yes thats what the proposal says)
>
> Well it would add about 3 hours to this guys 10 minute journey
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MtXymQkjs&search=motorcycle

Struth! What a ********! Putting a lot of faith in his fellow road
users.

Agressive riding around the other riders.

--
TimC
The Sell Dervers are balanced behind another Sell Derver, and both
have their data protected from Badness by a Dedundant Array of
Inexpensive Risks -- Aquarion in ASR revealing the secrets of RAID

 

[dave]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-02-20, Parbs (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>>TimC wrote:
>>
>>>My dad got a hole in his fibro wall from a motorcyclist -- a postie
>>>bike
>>>
>>
>>So it seems being hit by traffic is a C family trait
>
>
> Oh, he had a lot of two wheel stories, motorised and not.
>
> I wish I was interested in cycling when he was still alive -- could
> have asked him all sorts of questions about racing.
>
watch that crash video Tim. Watch her shadow. See she pulls both her
legs up and is on the tank when she hits the car. THats how an expert
crashes. And thats what you need. Not advice about racing.. we all
know you are as tough as nails (and twice as bright) But your crash
skills are ****. You need advice on crashing )

Dave

 

[cfsmtb]

Are you still interested in getting your bike learners?

Yeah I am actually, speaking of postie bikes, I'd love one! Don't want to ride on freeways & not interested in fanging it. Several years back I had a great chat with a moto rider who had this seriously hot Italian sport bike (can't recall the make!) We both agreed on many things, including a dislike of being 'enclosed' in a car cabin. Bikesoiler & I have discussed (slightly) me getting a car license more as a practical measure.

 

[dave]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>>You know how the lanesplitting law will add only minimally to the time
>>we take to complete a journey? (yes thats what the proposal says)
>>
>>Well it would add about 3 hours to this guys 10 minute journey
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MtXymQkjs&search=motorcycle
>
>
> Struth! What a ********! Putting a lot of faith in his fellow road
> users.
>
> Agressive riding around the other riders.
>

He was a shitload faster than I would be thats for sure. Even when
chased by the cops. I would be one of the guys he passed.

ANd yeah he is a nut.

BUT I must say it looked more dangerous than it was. He had no margin
whatsoever for error.. in fact you can hear him touch a mirror in the
first minute.. ANd a piece of steel sticking out from a truck would have
killed him. But if you are sure you will fit overtakeing trucks fast is
probably safer.. Its many turns lock to lock of a big heavy steering
wheel... trucks just cannot change direction quick enough to hit you..
and at all the places where I was going.. "The guy on the left is going
to move over" he had it sussed too.

A second dan lane splitter. Not defending him you understand.. we all
make mistakes and any mistake he makes is going to hurt. But he wasnt
at the risk from the traffic that a non motorcyclist would think...

Did you notice that ALL the other motorcyclist.. even the guy on the CX
towards the end knew he was there

Dave

Dave

 

[Terry Collins]

cfsmtb wrote:
> This is probably a question that should be posed over at aus.cars.
> Anyway for those of you with licenses, do you recall *anything* either
> in handbooks or the computer tests that directly related to pedestrians
> or cyclists?

Well, I gained mine in NSW before the computer tests were introduced,
but I was in the RTA section when the intial testing program was
"written". Great reluctance to give a definite question on bicycles.
Bicycles were one of a number of topics that would randomly occupy 6 of
36 questions (hazy memory now). So it was quite possible that no
question is asked on bicycles

>
> Today the media is full of depressing news about the Mildura deaths,
> the police admit they're bewildered over the Vic road toll and there's
> more defeatist pissing and moaning about aggressive road behaviour.

If Vic Police are like NSW Police then it is their attitude towards
other road users that is to blame. For decades, he majority attitude
that I've witnessed in NSW Police is that the "car is god".

Role on the dutch approach.

 

[dave]

cfsmtb wrote:
> dave Wrote:
>
>>Are you still interested in getting your bike learners?
>
>
> Yeah I am actually, speaking of postie bikes, I'd love one! Don't want
> to ride on freeways & not interested in fanging it. Several years back
> I had a great chat with a moto rider who had this seriously hot Italian
> sport bike (can't recall the make!) We both agreed on many things,
> including a dislike of being 'enclosed' in a car cabin. Bikesoiler & I
> have discussed (slightly) me getting a car license more as a practical
> measure.
>
>
Hmmmmmm well then ..
http://www.netrider.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12854&highlight=postie+bikes

I dont think the pillion on the things is wonderfully useful.

Still they are fun.. and reliable and about as complicted as a pushie.

IF you get one.. I can probably ferry it for you. If Steve cant teach
you I can probably manage that too. But if you can afford it I would go
for my learners with HART or motorcycle motion. Do you want me to loan
you the motorcycle skills video? Its VHS. And translates almost
perfectly into pushy skills.. Lots of cross over

Dave

 

[Bleve]

dave wrote:
> Euan wrote:
> > "Bleve" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> >>Maybe the 30km/h thing is a big factor? I'd doubt if more questions on
> >>a test would change anyone's agressive driving behaviour.
> >
> >
> > No, but at least everyone on the roads will know what the rules are.
> > Heck there are policemen out there who don't know it's legal for
> > cyclists to ride to abreast. That is appalling.

Agreed, but it's not addressing the core issue, IMO.

> >>And, as much as I don't like it, seperating cars from bikes and bikes
> >>from pedestrians makes it safer for us (bikes). Takes us out of the
> >>firing line. But, so does sitting inside watching TV while riding a
> >>spin trainer. Not an alternative I fancy much.
> >
> >
> > It's only slightly riskier riding a bike than it is to drive a car and
> > walking's riskier than riding a bike. Where's the justification for
> > separating bikes from cars, especially as riding get safer as more per
> > capita ride and there's more per capita riding.
>
> I do absolutely agree with Euan. And who says you are out of the
> firing line?

If bikes are not sharing the same space as cars, they cannot be hit by
cars. There is no room for argument in that situation. It is a simple
fact. I'm not a proponent of it (ie: please read what I wrote, in
context) but it would be safer than the current situation. A car
cannot hit me if I am riding down the Eastern Freeway bike path. I
might run into a dog or a jogger and break a bone though! Please also
note that I am not overstating the risks of riding on the road. I
think the risk is minimal and one that I cheerfully accept every day,
but that doesn't change the fact that it is a greater risk than riding
on a seperated track. I'm not talking about riding on the footpath
either.

> Sheesh. Any idea how many peds get skittled by cars..

Yep, heaps. Much more than cyclists. Not relevant. People get eaten
by sharks, hit by lightening, chased by triffids ...

> when they are on the footpath? Its significant. People have been
> killed in their beds. In kindergartens.

Yes. Please pay attention to the context of the discussion. You're
arguing a point that I have not made.

> Incidently I will bet that no one has ever been killed by a cyclist
> crashing into their house. (might limit that to in australia tho)

You're probably right. It's a red herring.

> The things that you think are dangerous often are not the things that
> are dangerous. THe safest sport in Australia is supposed to be target
> shooting. The most dangerous mainstream sport Lawn Bowles. (The most
> dangerous sport is supposed to be cave diving with 1 in 10 people killed
> every year.. but that just shows that occasionally what looks dangerous
> really is

Cave diving used to be dangerous, but AFAIK it has been a very long
time since anyone died in this country doing it, it's been pretty safe
since the CDAA took responsibility for it,:
http://www.cavedivers.com.au/ and here's one for Euan It got safer
because of improved training and regulation See if you can find the
counterpoint that makes it different to car licencing.

 

[mkli]

When doing the first part of the theory test to get my Ls in SA a few
years back, I failed after mis-answering a "which must give way"
question in which car A was already over the line making it's move;
in theory car A had to give way, but as car A was already obstructing
the move car B wanted to make I marked B as the one which must give way.

Bzzt. Wrong.

(After finally getting my Ls then Ps, I drove a handful of times in my
parents' car, decided I didn't like it, let my license lapse, and have
never driven since. The caged life is too stressful.)

- mkli.

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> TimC wrote:
>> Agressive riding around the other riders.
>
> He was a shitload faster than I would be thats for sure. Even when
> chased by the cops. I would be one of the guys he passed.

I thought I heard a siren, but couldn't quite hear over Billy
Connelly.

> ANd yeah he is a nut.
>
> BUT I must say it looked more dangerous than it was. He had no margin
> whatsoever for error.. in fact you can hear him touch a mirror in the
> first minute.. ANd a piece of steel sticking out from a truck would have
> killed him. But if you are sure you will fit overtakeing trucks fast is
> probably safer.. Its many turns lock to lock of a big heavy steering
> wheel... trucks just cannot change direction quick enough to hit you..
> and at all the places where I was going.. "The guy on the left is going
> to move over" he had it sussed too.

I noticed he had them all sussed.




I taped Ausstory and watched it just then -- dammit, watching any
footage of the AIS team these days sends me to tears. It's good to
hear they are all making great progress.

> Dave
>
> Dave

Tim

Tim



--
TimC
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?

 

[Ian George]

cfsmtb wrote:
> This is probably a question that should be posed over at aus.cars.
> Anyway for those of you with licenses, do you recall *anything* either
> in handbooks or the computer tests that directly related to
> pedestrians or cyclists?
>
> Today the media is full of depressing news about the Mildura deaths,
> the police admit they're bewildered over the Vic road toll and there's
> more defeatist pissing and moaning about aggressive road behaviour.
>
> At the Connecting Cycling Conference last Thursday, Dr John Pucher
> demonstrated how in the German drivers license - 30 / 40% of the
> questions directly pertaining to peds/cyclists interactions. Suburban
> zones have a strict 30km limit, the Autobahns are quite another
> matter!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Unless something has changed recently, the speed limit in built-up areas in
Germany is 50kph, around 30mph. A 30kph/18mph speed limit would be
impractical for a car.

> While I'm waiting for a copy of his presentation to verify my notes
> I've been going through the VicRoads website trying to check for
> references to peds/cyclists. And all I'm finding is rather cursory
> references and a lot of gobbledigook. Am I missing something, as I've
> never driven a car, or is there a bleeding obvious lack of education,
> enforcement and clear speaking?

The licensing requirements here are ridiculous. The German license has long
been considered the Gold standard of such tests, and incorporates a
mandatory training programme, as well as examination phases both theoretical
and practical. Given the lack of speed limits their limited-access roads,
and given the range of conditions experienced on them, their road toll would
be of carnage proportions if they applied our tests.

Anyway, I just looked in to see if there were any trike-riders here? I am
awaiting delivery of a Greenspeed recumbent, first bike/trike I've owned in
20 years, and was hoping to get some tips on surviving the first two months
with it.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Ian

 

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:49:44 +1100
cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had a great chat with a moto rider who had this seriously hot Italian
> sport bike (can't recall the make!) We both agreed on many things,
> including a dislike of being 'enclosed' in a car cabin. Bikesoiler & I
> have discussed (slightly) me getting a car license more as a practical
> measure.

If you have been riding a pushbike on the road, then you won't have
that much trouble with traffic on a motorbike as you already have most
of the skills. Just have to cope with the speed which can be pretty
disturbing!

A car licence might be more practical in that you are more likely to
drive someone else's car than someone else's bike, but if you don't
practice your skills won't transfer as well. Think parking....

Posties go in the 1000-1200 range and have been majorly thrashed.
Consider a 2nd hand 125 scooter which will be a bit more expensive but
a lot less thrashed, and being a straight auto will be even easier.
Fit it with a towbar, pull a bicycle trailer for those longer distance
hauling jobs

Zebee

 

[dave]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-02-20, dave (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>>TimC wrote:
>>
>>>Agressive riding around the other riders.
>>
>>He was a shitload faster than I would be thats for sure. Even when
>>chased by the cops. I would be one of the guys he passed.
>
>
> I thought I heard a siren, but couldn't quite hear over Billy
> Connelly.
>
Sadly he was just a commuter
>
>>ANd yeah he is a nut.
>>
>>BUT I must say it looked more dangerous than it was. He had no margin
>>whatsoever for error.. in fact you can hear him touch a mirror in the
>>first minute.. ANd a piece of steel sticking out from a truck would have
>>killed him. But if you are sure you will fit overtakeing trucks fast is
>>probably safer.. Its many turns lock to lock of a big heavy steering
>>wheel... trucks just cannot change direction quick enough to hit you..
>>and at all the places where I was going.. "The guy on the left is going
>>to move over" he had it sussed too.
>
>
> I noticed he had them all sussed.
>
>
>
>
> I taped Ausstory and watched it just then -- dammit, watching any
> footage of the AIS team these days sends me to tears. It's good to
> hear they are all making great progress.
>
>
Well some of them are making great progress. Or they are all making
great progress considering where they started.

See my reply to Suzie.. Woosy Tim Not a sniff from Dave.

Yeah righhhht

Dave

 

[dave]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:49:44 +1100
> cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I had a great chat with a moto rider who had this seriously hot Italian
>>sport bike (can't recall the make!) We both agreed on many things,
>>including a dislike of being 'enclosed' in a car cabin. Bikesoiler & I
>>have discussed (slightly) me getting a car license more as a practical
>>measure.
>
>
> If you have been riding a pushbike on the road, then you won't have
> that much trouble with traffic on a motorbike as you already have most
> of the skills. Just have to cope with the speed which can be pretty
> disturbing!

And learn about using speed, accelleration as a safety aid, and about
staying in the gaps between bunches of cars becouse its safer and you
now have the horsepower (Maybe not on a CT110... but I am pretty sure
lance already rides his bicycle like that
>
> A car licence might be more practical in that you are more likely to
> drive someone else's car than someone else's bike, but if you don't
> practice your skills won't transfer as well. Think parking....

Yeah. The accident rate on borrowed bikes is pretty bad as well. I
suspect that thats the dickheads.. Of course I can impress you on your
GSXR1100.
>
> Posties go in the 1000-1200 range and have been majorly thrashed.
> Consider a 2nd hand 125 scooter which will be a bit more expensive but
> a lot less thrashed, and being a straight auto will be even easier.
> Fit it with a towbar, pull a bicycle trailer for those longer distance
> hauling jobs
>
> Zebee


The last postie I bought was 400 at aution.. for someone else. I
wouldnt actually own one cept as a second or third motorbike. (Behind
the orange 750 SS They have been thrashed but seem to thrive on
it. And they are a quick and easy (if not cheap becouse honda) rebuild.

I get the impression cfsmtb wants a postie particulary.. in which case
she should have one. And my only issue with that probably doesnt apply
in her case. Its that many people with scooters just dont think of
themselfs as motorcyclists.

Dave