Driver not charged in daylight overtaking fatality



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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On 26 Jun 2003, Chris Phillipo opined:
>
> > And if I'm not mistaken, if he was charged, and then found innocent, that would make the civil
> > case all that much harder to make.
>
> Depends, as the burden of proof is different in criminal vs. civil cases. I hate to bring it up,
> but a good example is OJ, found not guilty of the murder charges but guilty of the civil wrongful
> death suit....

Just picking nits: in the suit, he was not "Guilty", but rather found "Liable". Criminal convictions
normally require "Beyond a reasonable doubt", while civil suits are usually "preponderance of the
evidence".

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On 26 Jun 2003, Chris Phillipo opined:
>
> > And if I'm not mistaken, if he was charged, and then found innocent, that would make the civil
> > case all that much harder to make.
>
> Depends, as the burden of proof is different in criminal vs. civil cases. I hate to bring it up,
> but a good example is OJ, found not guilty of the murder charges but guilty of the civil wrongful
> death suit....
>
> Chad
>
>
Ya but that's different, everyone knew he was guilty both ways :)
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
On 26 Jun 2003, archer opined:

> Just picking nits: in the suit, he was not "Guilty", but rather found "Liable". Criminal
> convictions normally require "Beyond a reasonable doubt", while civil suits are usually
> "preponderance of the evidence".

You are correct, of course. And, I should add, IANAL...

Thanks, Chad

--
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On 26 Jun 2003, Chris Phillipo opined:

> Ya but that's different, everyone knew he was guilty both ways :)

Heh, perhaps, but the principle works well as an illustration of a case in which civil justice was
rendered when criminal justice was either inapproprate (I'm not saying this was the case in the OJ
matter, to be clear), or not forthcoming, as well as where the finding of not guilty on the criminal
matter did not impact the civil verdict.

Chad

--
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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On 26 Jun 2003, Chris Phillipo opined:
>
> > Ya but that's different, everyone knew he was guilty both ways :)
>
> Heh, perhaps, but the principle works well as an illustration of a case in which civil justice was
> rendered when criminal justice was either inapproprate (I'm not saying this was the case in the OJ
> matter, to be clear), or not forthcoming, as well as where the finding of not guilty on the
> criminal matter did not impact the civil verdict.
>
> Chad
>
>

Unless the judge in the civil trial wanted to whack him twice as hard to make up for the criminal
verdict :)
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Zoot Katz wrote:
> Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:03:11 GMT, <[email protected]>, Jasper Janssen
> <[email protected]> yap-yap-yapped:
>
> >>Sure he had a shitty day, but not as bad as the dead cyclist's. If there's any chance for
> >>lawyers making his life hell, let them do their dirt and make him and a his family wish
> >>he'd died.
> >
> >Yes, because of course his kids deserve to rot in hell because their father made a mistake.
> >
> Oh cut the, "but think about the children", ****. You don't know whether he had kids or even
> considered that the man he killed could possibly have been somebody else's father.
>
> He should be left impaled on a stake or stomped into goo for being stupid by behaving
> irresponsibly while operating a deadly machine on our public roads. Lacking that satisfaction, I
> say let the lawyers suck out his marrow for the rest of his natural life.

Any vehicle (even your feet, if you want to call them that) can be deadly if operated in a reckless
or even careless manner. Although we don't know the details surrounding this accident, that's not
stopping everyone else from making assumptions, so I'm going to assume that the driver was operating
carelessly. Think about that. It hardly condemns him to being impaled or stomped. You will no doubt
label me car-centric and condemn me to some horrible fate for having disagreed with you, but ask
yourself: if it had been a different situation, with a biker at fault (say a biker looked down at
his comp and didn't see a child run in front of him, who was killed by the collision, or say a biker
didn't see an overtaking car and took a lane, causing the car to swerve and go over an embankment,
killing the driver), would you be condemning the biker to death by cruel and unusual punishment (or
at least misery by lawyer) in the same ruthless fashion? I somehow doubt it. I think you should take
a deep breath and think of everyone involved in this horrible incident, not just the guy who shared
a pasttime with you, as human beings, and then treat them as such.

Brendon
 
[email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >[email protected] (Steven Goodridge)
> wrote:
> >Does anybody understand why this driver was not charged?
> >http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/7/052836-7867-014.html
>
> The news story makes no mention of any reckless driving, any wilful act to threaten or endanger
> the cyclist by the driver, and no alcohol or drug usage by the driver. I'm not sure of Indiana law
> but absent one or more of those factors and assuming that the driver stopped at the scene to give
> aid I know there'd be no applicable *criminal* charge under Illinois law.

Whether this is on some philosophical level "right" or not, I think Bob has nailed exactly how
collisions of this type are generally handled in our part of the country.

Unless some grossly malicious or negligent behavior is evident (dead drunk *and* stoned, stopped and
ran over the victim 6 extra times in front of a group of witnesses, etc.), no particular action is
taken. Sometimes the driver isn't even cited for a traffic infraction (how about, in this case,
"failure to yield" or "unsafe passing", since the vehicle in front always has the right of way and
the vehicle to the rear is responsible for passing safely).

Instead, the incident is described as an "accident", as though it is unfortunate but completely
unavoidable and inevitable.

The sad thing about this attitude, is that such "accidents" are not accidental at all--they are
COMPLETELY preventable. But the attitude that they are inevitable and "accidental" prevents us from
taken the actions that need to be taken, and changing the attitudes that need to be changed, in
order to prevent this type of completely preventable collision.

Two quick stories to illustrate typical Midwest attitudes:

* The St. Louis Bike Fed met with area prosecutors to see what could be done about making more
serious consequences for this type of collision, where the driver isn't malicious, but is
negligent, breaking traffic law, and this disregard of traffic law leads to someone's death
(typically, though not exclusively, a pedestrian or cyclist). The prosecutors said that there was
nothing more they could do than charging them with a traffic infraction.

Couldn't they be charged with involuntary manslaughter?

No, that would require an underlying infraction of some sort.

Well, how about "failure to yield" (or whatever the other traffic infraction) as the underlying
infraction?

At that point some lights seemed to go in prosecutors' heads and a lot of scribbling on notepads
was seen. They hadn't ever thought of this, but couldn't seem to think of any reason why it
wouldn't work.

* When the Missouri Bicycle Federation was working with the Missouri General Assembly this past year
to create legislation to address this very problem, we heard again and again from prosecutors and
law enforcement, "This provision just isn't necessary. We can handle these incidents just fine
under current law. All it takes is an underlying infraction that causes death--this is an open &
shut case for 2nd degree involuntary manslaughter."

See the relevant Missouri code at

http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C500-599/5650024.HTM

Of course, our response was, "Then why does this NEVER happen in real life?"

No one has had an answer to this.

But they are not completely blowing smoke--here is an actual case where they made a charge of
involuntary manslaughter based only on a traffic infraction. The circumstances are very similar to
the case of the Indiana bicyclist we're discussing on this thread, though the victim in this case is
a tractor driver:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/5278961.htm

The more I think about it, the more I think that, perhaps, the most productive approach to this type
of thing is to require anyone involved in a collision with a cyclist/pedestrian resulting in
injuries of any severity to take a driver ed type class focusing on pedestrian & cyclist issues &
safety, and then require them to re-take the driver license test, including the road portion.
Ideally, this would be regardless of who was at fault. (This is sort of like the law they have in
place Washington state, although my proposal adds the driver ed requirement.)

Combine that with serious driving privilege revocation consequences, especially on repeated
infractions/collisions, and we're making some progress.

My own interest in this is not to have motorists locked up, but rather to have them educated and/or
(if education fails) prevented from doing it again. That means keeping them from behind the wheel of
a car--permanently, if necessary.

And also, in having law enforcement, prosecutors, and courts take the issue seriously, because that
is one way drivers get the message to take it seriously. When motorists negligently kill someone and
receive, as punishment, a $75 fine and a 3-month license suspension, that definitely does NOT send
the general public the message that this kind of bad driving is taken seriously.

One reason bad and dangerous driving is so prevalent is that it is considered "normal" and any
lethal results of it are considered "just an accident".

--Brent bhugh [at] mwsc.edu www.mobikefed.org
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:47:55 -0400, Brendon Troy <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm going to assume that the driver was operating carelessly. Think about that. It hardly condemns
>him to being impaled or stomped.

Missing point: he was operating carelessly the single most deadly piece of equipment most people
will ever operate.

If he was negligent with a gun and just happened to shoot someone, would that be OK?

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
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Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:

> What about "negligence causing death"? Is that not "criminal"?
>
> It sounds to me like Pastor Fukwit wasn't watching where he was piloting a lethal object.

And it seems to me that there is a political subtext too, motorists
vs. minority road users. It absolves car drivers of repercussions for most of their blatant
transgressions of civil conduct when the victim is "only" a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist,
etc. (If the victim also happens to be of a racial minority, homeless, or an immigrant, the
chances of prosecution drop more, to near zero, no matter how irresponsible the driver.)

Consider whether or not there would be some kind of charges filed in the case of a bicyclist
striking and killing a child for instance. The fact that it might have been accidental would not, I
believe, save the cyclist from prosecution.
 
"Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Whether this is on some philosophical level "right" or not, I think Bob has nailed exactly how
> collisions of this type are generally handled in our part of the country.
>
> Unless some grossly malicious or negligent behavior is evident (dead drunk *and* stoned, stopped
> and ran over the victim 6 extra times in front of a group of witnesses, etc.), no particular
> action is taken. Sometimes the driver isn't even cited for a traffic infraction (how about, in
> this case, "failure to yield" or "unsafe passing", since the vehicle in front always has the right
> of way and the vehicle to the rear is responsible for passing safely).
>
> Instead, the incident is described as an "accident", as though it is unfortunate but completely
> unavoidable and inevitable.
>
> The sad thing about this attitude, is that such "accidents" are not accidental at all--they are
> COMPLETELY preventable. But the attitude that they are inevitable and "accidental" prevents us
> from taken the actions that need to be taken, and changing the attitudes that need to be changed,
> in order to prevent this type of completely preventable collision.
>
> Two quick stories to illustrate typical Midwest attitudes:
>
> * The St. Louis Bike Fed met with area prosecutors to see what could be done about making more
> serious consequences for this type of collision, where the driver isn't malicious, but is
> negligent, breaking traffic law, and this disregard of traffic law leads to someone's death
> (typically, though not exclusively, a pedestrian or cyclist). The prosecutors said that there
> was nothing more they could do than charging them with a traffic infraction.
>
> Couldn't they be charged with involuntary manslaughter?
>
> No, that would require an underlying infraction of some sort.
>
> Well, how about "failure to yield" (or whatever the other traffic infraction) as the underlying
> infraction?
>
> At that point some lights seemed to go in prosecutors' heads and a lot of scribbling on notepads
> was seen. They hadn't ever thought of this, but couldn't seem to think of any reason why it
> wouldn't work.
>
>
> * When the Missouri Bicycle Federation was working with the Missouri General Assembly this past
> year to create legislation to address this very problem, we heard again and again from
> prosecutors and law enforcement, "This provision just isn't necessary. We can handle these
> incidents just fine under current law. All it takes is an underlying infraction that causes
> death--this is an open & shut case for 2nd degree involuntary manslaughter."
>
> See the relevant Missouri code at
>
> http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C500-599/5650024.HTM
>
> Of course, our response was, "Then why does this NEVER happen in real life?"
>
> No one has had an answer to this.
>
> But they are not completely blowing smoke--here is an actual case where they made a charge of
> involuntary manslaughter based only on a traffic infraction. The circumstances are very similar to
> the case of the Indiana bicyclist we're discussing on this thread, though the victim in this case
> is a tractor driver:
>
> http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/5278961.htm
>
>
>
> The more I think about it, the more I think that, perhaps, the most productive approach to this
> type of thing is to require anyone involved in a collision with a cyclist/pedestrian resulting in
> injuries of any severity to take a driver ed type class focusing on pedestrian & cyclist issues &
> safety, and then require them to re-take the driver license test, including the road portion.
> Ideally, this would be regardless of who was at fault. (This is sort of like the law they have in
> place Washington state, although my proposal adds the driver ed requirement.)
>
> Combine that with serious driving privilege revocation consequences, especially on repeated
> infractions/collisions, and we're making some progress.
>
> My own interest in this is not to have motorists locked up, but rather to have them educated
> and/or (if education fails) prevented from doing it again. That means keeping them from behind the
> wheel of a car--permanently, if necessary.
>
> And also, in having law enforcement, prosecutors, and courts take the issue seriously, because
> that is one way drivers get the message to take it seriously. When motorists negligently kill
> someone and receive, as punishment, a $75 fine and a 3-month license suspension, that definitely
> does NOT send the general public the message that this kind of bad driving is taken seriously.

All points well taken. I agree that it makes no sense to lock people up, or even fine them ruinously
(though there should definately be some punishment, like license suspension). These are not usually
incorrigeable criminals, but otherwise reasonable people who have made serious mistakes. The cure is
rehab and retraining, to keep these things from happening.

> One reason bad and dangerous driving is so prevalent is that it is considered "normal" and any
> lethal results of it are considered "just an accident".

Exactly. We need to work on these attitudes.

I'm a fan of better driver education as well. I think people should have to take the written tests
whenever they renew their licenses -- every 5 years or so. This gives an opportunity to hammer this
information into people's brains. Keep in mind that states with the least driver education and the
highest percentages of unlicensed drivers generally have the worst accident rates.

Matt O.
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:47:55 -0400, Brendon Troy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm going to assume that the driver was operating carelessly. Think about that. It hardly
> >condemns him to being impaled or stomped.
>
> Missing point: he was operating carelessly the single most deadly piece of equipment most people
> will ever operate.
>
> If he was negligent with a gun and just happened to shoot someone, would that be OK?

Of course not. Nor did I ever suggest that this incident was "OK". It was horrible, the driver was
horribly negligent, and the whole situation sucks.

The radical view that I was suggesting, though, was that perhaps the driver does not deserve to be
murdered (by unusual methods or not), and perhaps his children do not deserve to die destitute,
because of his carelessness. Obviously, extra care should be taken when piloting a motorized
vehicle, and the drive did not. Like many, I was shocked and dismayed to read that the driver here
was not going to be charged. However, this militant "bike-centric" view that careless (even
negligent) drivers should be violently killed shows a frightening lack of respect for the very human
life that poor biker lost out there. Yes, the OReplier was probably exaggerating about the impaling,
but about the lawyers? I wasn't so sure, so I spoke up.

-Brendon
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:49:21 -0400, Brendon Troy <[email protected]> wrote:

>The radical view that I was suggesting, though, was that perhaps the driver does not deserve to be
>murdered (by unusual methods or not), and perhaps his children do not deserve to die destitute,
>because of his carelessness.

No, there's no need to actually kill him I agree. Cutting his goolies off would be quite sufficient,
accompanied by a substantial fine and a long driving ban of course.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
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the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:33:09 -0400 (EDT), Lee Tharps <[email protected]> wrote:

>even if there are no criminal charges, the guy can still be held liable in a civil proceeding,
>and the family of the dead cyclist may and probably will reap some type of money for punitive
>damages, etc.
>
>there is no doubt that what killed the guy was the truck, so it shouldn't be too hard to make a
>case for a civil trial.

Why would he get punitive damages? Or damages at all? The question is not if the truck was what
killed the guy, the question if whether the truck was at fault.. at least that's how it should be,
IMHO. And it's not determinable from the article who was at fault here. How about the RAAM guy, who
(according to the news) made a U turn to in front of a vehicle? Should his family be getting
punitive damages because he made a stupid move?

Jasper
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:07:52 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>All points well taken. I agree that it makes no sense to lock people up, or even fine them
>ruinously (though there should definately be some punishment, like license suspension). These are
>not usually incorrigeable criminals, but otherwise reasonable people who have made serious
>mistakes. The cure is rehab and retraining, to keep these things from happening.

In the case at hand though, I see no evidence in the newspaper article of "serious mistakes".
Looking away for a second or two, for example to your rear view mirror rather than the front, or
wherever, is hardly a "serious" mistake, or a mistake at all.

Jasper
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:23:59 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Suppose this driver had hit another slow-moving vehicle, like a farm tractor, and killed its
>driver? Would he have been charged with negligence then, under IL law? Why is a bicycle any
>different?

From what appeared in the paper, probably not. I don't see anything in the description of events
that's particularly negligent.

Jasper
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:47:39 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:03:11 GMT, <[email protected]>, Jasper Janssen
><[email protected]> yap-yap-yapped:
>
>>>Sure he had a shitty day, but not as bad as the dead cyclist's. If there's any chance for lawyers
>>>making his life hell, let them do their dirt and make him and a his family wish he'd died.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Yes, because of course his kids deserve to rot in hell because their father made a mistake.
>>
>Oh cut the, "but think about the children", ****. You don't know whether he had kids or even
>considered that the man he killed could possibly have been somebody else's father.

The poster I replied to stipulated *specifically* that his family should suffer.

Learn to read.

Jasper
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:31:33 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

>The poster I replied to stipulated *specifically* that his family should suffer.

Wait. *you're* the poster I replied to. In that case, learn some consistency.

Jasper
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:49:21 -0400, Brendon Troy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The radical view that I was suggesting, though, was that perhaps the driver does not deserve to
> >be murdered (by unusual methods or not), and perhaps his children do not deserve to die
> >destitute, because of his carelessness.
>
> No, there's no need to actually kill him I agree. Cutting his goolies off would be quite
> sufficient, accompanied by a substantial fine and a long driving ban of course.
>
> Guy

Revokation, or at least a long suspension, of his driving priv *is* the same as 'cutting his
goolies off'.

Personally, I think that is where all death by motor vehicle incidents should start at. Banned from
driving for some period of time. Say a year minimum. No 'drive to work' exemption, no 'permissable
hours'. An outright ban. Plenty of people get aroud with no car. Let him figure out how to get to
work. Maybe he'll start to ride a bike...:)

Get caught driving during that ban? First time, it becomes permanent. Forever and ever. Subsequent
violations involve actual jail time

Notice I said *start with*. Circumstances may warrant a stiffer penalty.

Getting off with nothing, which may or may not happen here, is simply not right.

Pete
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:57:16 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Getting off with nothing, which may or may not happen here, is simply not right.

Yeah, cause when some idiot walks out on the road without looking about 5 meters in front of you
(like pedestrians and even bikes sometimes do) from behind a car/van is *so* your fault, and
absolutely warrants punishments that in many cases could easily lead to people losing their jobs.

Jasper
 
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:57:16 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Getting off with nothing, which may or may not happen here, is simply not right.
>
> Yeah, cause when some idiot walks out on the road without looking about 5 meters in front of you
> (like pedestrians and even bikes sometimes do) from behind a car/van is *so* your fault, and
> absolutely warrants punishments that in many cases could easily lead to people losing their jobs.
>
> Jasper
>

Exactly. Let's not let our frustration as cyclists and our contempt for cars and their drivers cloud
our otherwise sparkling judgement, eh? Don't advocate anything that will later seem unreasonable.

-Brendon
 
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