Dropout spacer help

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Joe, Jan 26, 2003.

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  1. Joe

    Joe Guest

    My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving the
    new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.

    I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I purchase
    2.5 mm spacers online? Exactly what are they called?

    Thanks in advance. Joe
     
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  2. Garry N

    Garry N Guest

    Joe, March yourself down to your local Ace hardware store and buy an assortment of washers. Garry

    "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving
    > the new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    >
    > I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I
    > purchase 2.5 mm spacers online? Exactly what are they called?
    >
    > Thanks in advance. Joe
     
  3. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving
    > the new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    >
    > I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I
    > purchase 2.5 mm spacers online? Exactly what are they called?
    >
    > Thanks in advance. Joe

    Any LBS will have them. Ask for axle spacers. the usual increments are 1, 2, and 5 mm but there may
    be 2.5 available. . .

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  4. On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 19:23:44 -0500, Joe wrote:

    > My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving
    > the new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    >
    > I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I
    > purchase 2.5 mm spacers online? Exactly what are they called?

    You've already been told about getting spacers from a shop, or washers from a hardware store. One
    thing to think about is that you will need a longer axle in order for the 130mm wheel to fit. Some
    just won't work, because the only axles made are for 130mm spacing. Others might be easily
    available.

    You want the end of the axle to extend halfway into the dropout; losing
    2.5mm from each side will probably mean that the stock axle won't protrude into the dropout at all.

    BTW, why do you want to do this? What's wrong with 135mm axle spacing?

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
    -- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |
     
  5. Bluto

    Bluto Guest

    Joe <[email protected]> wrote:

    > My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving
    > the new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    >
    > I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub.

    Adding a 5mm spacer to the left side only (and correcting the wheel's dish by tightening left side
    spokes) will yield a stronger wheel.

    Chalo Colina
     
  6. Joe

    Joe Guest

    On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:19:11 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson
    <[email protected]>> wrote:

    >
    >BTW, why do you want to do this? What's wrong with 135mm axle spacing?

    Nothing wrong with 135mm. It is the rim, Mavic T519, that I want to eliminate. Limited choice of
    tires, only 28mm on up. Also cannot participate in tire sales in the 20-25mm range.

    Same question regarding smaller, lighter, tyres for the Mavic 519 appeared in Cycling Plus this
    month. Rider wanted to use 28mm on Mavic 519 rim but was told by buddies that it is not ideal for
    this rim. Cycling Plus concurred and added that that a 28mm tyre would present a flatter, less than
    ideal profile to the rode, and that a change to a MA3 rim and smaller tyres would be an improvement.

    Lately I've been running Conti 28 mm tyres on the Mavic 519 rim, and have been very pleased with the
    perfomance as opposed to the Conti Top Touring 2000 37mm that I had been on previously. Since I do
    not plan to do any touring, or carry any heavy weight, other than my own, I want a smaller rim.
    Spotted 2003 Mavic Cosmos CD wheelset on sale for $186 online this weekend and plan on purchasing.
    That is, if I can get all of this 135 to 130mm stuff sorted out.

    Joe
     
  7. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Joe <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Nothing wrong with 135mm. It is the rim, Mavic T519, that I want to eliminate. Limited choice of
    > tires, only 28mm on up. Also cannot participate in tire sales in the 20-25mm range.

    Why not just replace the rim with a narrower one with the same effective rim diameter?

    Art Harris
     
  8. Joe

    Joe Guest

    On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:01:46 GMT, Harris <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Why not just replace the rim with a narrower one with the same effective rim diameter?
    >
    >Art Harris

    Good point! I briefly thought about changing rims, but with all the ice, sand, and crud on the road
    during the winter months, I recently switched back to my Continental Top Touring 2000's. Of course,
    with a smaller rim on my present setup I could still use a 28mm heavy duty tire. I will have to give
    this some more thought. The first thing that comes to mind is about what would it cost to switch to
    a narrower rim, for example the MA3, including material and labor?

    Would be a good time to do this as the arctic air hanging over the east has finally kept me inside.

    Thanks, Joe
     
  9. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    [email protected] (Bluto) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Joe <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving
    > > the new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    > >
    > > I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub.
    >
    > Adding a 5mm spacer to the left side only (and correcting the wheel's dish by tightening left side
    > spokes) will yield a stronger wheel.
    >
    > Chalo Colina

    Chalo is correct.

    In addition, moving the cassette inboard changes the derailleur's response to a given increment of
    cable pull. It now swings though a different arc, not the one intended by the manufacturer. Might
    work, but will certainly degrade shifting at least a little.
     
  10. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Joe wrote:
    > Harris wrote:

    > >Why not just replace the rim with a narrower one with the same effective rim diameter?

    > Good point! I briefly thought about changing rims, but with all the ice, sand, and crud on the
    > road during the winter months, I recently switched back to my Continental Top Touring 2000's. Of
    > course, with a smaller rim on my present setup I could still use a 28mm heavy duty tire. I will
    > have to give this some more thought. The first thing that comes to mind is about what would it
    > cost to switch to a narrower rim, for example the MA3, including material and labor?

    The MA3 costs about $30, but I don't think it has the same ERD as the
    T519. Swapping a rim is not hard. You loosen the spokes in the existing wheel. Then you place the
    new rim alongside (observing the same valve hole position and alternating hole offset pattern
    as the old rim). Then you transfer the spokes one at a time. Truing and tensioning may be more
    of a challenge if you haven't done it before.

    Worst case you could have your LBS finish it off.

    The key is getting a rim that requires the same spoke lengths.

    Art Harris
     
  11. David Ornee

    David Ornee Guest

    "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:01:46 GMT, Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    > >Why not just replace the rim with a narrower one with the same effective rim diameter?
    > >
    > >Art Harris
    >
    > Good point! I briefly thought about changing rims, but with all the ice, sand, and crud on the
    > road during the winter months, I recently switched back to my Continental Top Touring 2000's. Of
    > course, with a smaller rim on my present setup I could still use a 28mm heavy duty tire. I will
    > have to give this some more thought. The first thing that comes to mind is about what would it
    > cost to switch to a narrower rim, for example the MA3, including material and labor?
    >
    > Would be a good time to do this as the arctic air hanging over the east has finally kept
    > me inside.
    >
    > Thanks, Joe

    Joe, Mavic says you can use 28 - 37 tires on that rim. I have used Continental Grand Prix 25 mm
    tires on the T520 version without any problem. The side wall of the tire looks nearly parallel to
    the outside braking surface of the rim. Unless you want to go smaller than 25 mm and/or want to save
    100 grams at the rim, I would stay with what you have. I think Sheldon Brown is one who personally
    likes wide rims in combination with not-so-wide tires. The additional strength and lateral stiffness
    of wide rim like the T519 (now T520) makes for a very durable wheel. If Sheldon doesn't weigh in on
    this, you might want to email him directly.

    I agree with Bluto on the spacing situation: Put the 5 mm spacer on the left
    + re-dish. I think you will need to move the axle over as well; and maybe even replace it with the
    axle for that spacing. Look at the Shimano site for axle length specifications to compare.

    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
     
  12. xo-<< I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I
    purchase 2.5 mm spacers online?<< Exactly what are they called?

    Axle spacers and I will bet yer bike shop has some...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  13. Joe

    Joe Guest

    On 27 Jan 2003 20:55:58 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

    >xo-<< It is the rim, Mavic T519, that I want to eliminate. Limited choice of tires, only 28mm on
    >up. Also cannot participate in tire sales in the 20-25mm range.
    >
    >This isn't true, a 23c tire will fit onto a T519 w/o problem.

    This is an excerpt from the January Cycling Plus article regarding narrow tyres on the Mavic 519
    rim. For what it is worth, in my experience the Conti GP 3000 has very favorable riding
    characteristics on the 519 rim. Admittedly, I do not have a whole lot of experience to compare these
    two tires. Since I am primarily a recreational rider my sense is that a 25mm tire would do fine for
    me with the 519 rim.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C + reader:.... it is difficult to find light, fast-riding tyres that suit the wide rims, 18mm
    internal width, Mavic T519s.

    Cycling Plus: You are right in assuming that 28mm tyres on your wide rims won't produce a good
    combination of tyre profile. The ideal profile is a light bulb shape produced by a relatively narrow
    rim supporting a bulbous tyre.

    This tyre shape is free to conform to various road surfaces as the sidewalls are allowed to
    concertina. If you choose to put a narrower tyre on a wide rim the tyre is drawn out into a fiat,
    nose shaped profile whose triangular cross-section is actually quite resilient and won't provide
    favourable ride characteristics

    The other bad news is that fast rolling tyres seem to stop at 23mm height and anything over 28mm is
    assumed to be used for touring You have only got to look at most hybrids' tyres to see what
    designers believe is the ideal tyre for general street use. However if you can find some Michelin
    World Tours you will have one of the best all-round lyres out there. True, the Michelin is heavy but
    once the tread has worn down you will have a cheap, grippy and durable tyre.

    Replacement rims worth considering are Mavic's T224 [~16.5O in black or silver], for tyres from
    28-37mm, and the Mavic MA3 ty13.99 silver £1&50 in black) for tyres from 19-28mm. ]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any comments on the foregoing 'triangular cross-section that won't provide favourable ride
    characteristics'?

    Joe
     
  14. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    You need to add a 5 mm spacer to the non drive side. You don't want to change the chainline or
    derailleur angle on the drive side. You need to re-dish the wheel.

    You have to be very compulsive to want ½ mm accuracy in wheel spacing. If you want it, get a bunch
    of the knurled nuts that go on the end and you'll find some that are thicker or thinner than what
    you have now.

    On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:23:44 GMT, Joe <[email protected]> wrote:

    >My dropouts are 135mm, and I want to add a wheelset with 130mm spacing. I'm planning on leaving the
    >new wheelset on permanently, and will align my rear derailleur for the new wheelset.
    >
    >I'll add 2.5 mm spacers on both sides of the hub. My only remaining question is where can I
    >purchase 2.5 mm spacers online? Exactly what are they called?
    >
    >Thanks in advance. Joe
     
  15. On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:53:10 -0500, Joe wrote:

    > On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 22:19:11 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson
    > <[email protected]>> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>BTW, why do you want to do this? What's wrong with 135mm axle spacing?
    >
    > Nothing wrong with 135mm. It is the rim, Mavic T519, that I want to eliminate. Limited choice of
    > tires, only 28mm on up. Also cannot participate in tire sales in the 20-25mm range.

    Again, why go to 130mm for this. Build up a 700c rim of your choice with a 135mm hub, or have it
    done, or buy one ready-built. No problem. Or just replace the rim on the wheel.
    >
    > Same question regarding smaller, lighter, tyres for the Mavic 519 appeared in Cycling Plus this
    > month. Rider wanted to use 28mm on Mavic 519 rim but was told by buddies that it is not ideal for
    > this rim.

    "Not ideal" means?

    > Cycling Plus concurred and added that that a 28mm tyre would present a flatter, less than ideal
    > profile to the rode, and that a change to a MA3 rim and smaller tyres would be an improvement.

    The only relevant difference is the width of the rim, between the beads. How much difference are you
    talking about? 2mm? I question their judgement. Remember, they support the industry, which wants you
    to buy lots of new stuff you don't need.

    > smaller rim. Spotted 2003 Mavic Cosmos CD wheelset on sale for $186 online this weekend and plan
    > on purchasing. That is, if I can get all of this 135 to 130mm stuff sorted out.

    Ah, I see. But you will have no end of hassle with that 130mm wheel. Where can you get a longer
    axle? You _need_ a longer axle. What kind of hubs are those, some specialty brand? I would worry
    about ever finding a 135mm axle (that is, an axle for a 135mm spread, really a 140mm axle). Unless
    your frame is steel and you are willing to commit to having it cold set to 130mm, this is NOT the
    way to go.

    You would be much better off getting a wheel built for you. Take in your old ones, get the rim
    replaced. If you give the builder a bit of leeway, so he could find another rim with the same
    diameter, he can re-use the spokes (the right thing to do) and not only save money, but get a more
    reliable wheel.

    A 135mm hub will build a wheel with less dish, and that is good. Unless you are racing (UCI requires
    130mm hubs), there is no advantage to 130mm hubs.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve _`\(,_ | death. And some that die
    deserve life. Can you give it to (_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
    judgement. -- J. R. R. Tolkein
     
  16. On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:30:54 -0500, dianne_1234 wrote:

    > [email protected] (Bluto) wrote in message

    >> Adding a 5mm spacer to the left side only (and correcting the wheel's dish by tightening left
    >> side spokes) will yield a stronger wheel.
    >>
    >> Chalo Colina
    >
    > Chalo is correct.

    Not really. He would have to get a new axle, long enough to reach past those 5mm of spacers. Since
    the OP wants to buy a boutique wheel for this bike, it flat-out will not be possible. You need to
    have some part of either side of the axle protruding past the locknut, and there isn't enough extra
    on most axles to give 5mm more.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by
    something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis
    and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies
     
  17. Dianne_1234

    Dianne_1234 Guest

    As I mentioned, it will probably work (especially when the difference is small). But in fact, it is
    precisely because of the different starting place that the different cable pull results.

    Two-and-a-half millimeters is larger than the difference between alu and steel drops. If the
    shifting is marginal to start with, it may make it unacceptable.

    I think it's you Peter who might have said three strikes and yer out. (About wheels, I think).

    Maybe we can say the same about shifting.

    Internal cables? Strike one. Tortuous cable routing? Strike two. Aftermarket pulleys with no float?
    Strike three. Ergo levers switching over a Shimano cassette? Strike four. Sticky drink dried under
    the bb? Strike five.

    Derailleur operating out of its intended range...?

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > dianne-<< In addition, moving the cassette inboard changes the derailleur's response to a given
    > increment of cable pull. It now swings though a different arc, not the one intended by the
    > manufacturer. Might work, but will certainly degrade shifting at least a little.
    >
    > Not true or wheels onto aluminum framesets wouldn't shift as well, with big fat dropouts...
    >
    > Same 'arc', just a different starting place is all...
    >
    >
    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  18. A usually-reliable poster wrote, regarding converting a hub from 130 to 135 spacing:

    > Not really. He would have to get a new axle, long enough to reach past those 5mm of spacers. Since
    > the OP wants to buy a boutique wheel for this bike, it flat-out will not be possible. You need to
    > have some part of either side of the axle protruding past the locknut, and there isn't enough
    > extra on most axles to give 5mm more.

    That's not correct. Most rear QR hubs have axles 11 mm longer than the nominal locknut span. Thus,
    most 130 mm hubs have 141 mm axles.

    If you add 5 mm of spacer, there's still 6 mm of excess axle available. On a Shimano or other
    typical threaded-axle hub, it can easily be re-centered to provide 3 mm of protrusion on each side,
    which is way more than enough. (I don't think this works on Campagnolo cassette hubs.)

    Actually, for a couple of years one of my fixed-gear mtbs was running with the axle cut off flush
    with the nuts! I did this on purpose to gain a bit more wiggle room in the vertical dropouts to
    adjust the chain tension.

    This system never gave me a lick of trouble, and I weighed 265-270 most of the time I used
    that setup.

    Sheldon "You Don't Need Much" Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
    | For every complex problem, there is a solution | that is simple, neat, and wrong. | --H. L.
    | Mencken |
    +--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  19. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    "David L! take no offense - i yam asking a question not digging a foxhole!

    >> Adding a 5mm spacer to the left side only (and correcting the
    wheel's
    >> dish by tightening left side spokes) will yield a stronger wheel.

    DUHDUHDUH? MORE DISTANCE BETWEEN SPOKES AT THE HUB(BUT NOT AN ABSURD DISTANCE FELLOW NON-engineers)
    and no distance between the last axle nut and the dropouts is a stronger direction than narrow hub
    flange widths and more distance between last axle nuts and the dropout?? or are we about to have a
    quake here?
     
  20. Bluto

    Bluto Guest

    Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On a Shimano or other typical threaded-axle hub, it can easily be re-centered to provide 3 mm of
    > protrusion on each side, which is way more than enough. (I don't think this works on Campagnolo
    > cassette hubs.)
    >
    > Actually, for a couple of years one of my fixed-gear mtbs was running with the axle cut off flush
    > with the nuts! I did this on purpose to gain a bit more wiggle room in the vertical dropouts to
    > adjust the chain tension.
    >
    > This system never gave me a lick of trouble, and I weighed 265-270 most of the time I used
    > that setup.

    Something tells me that there was a _manly_ quick-release skewer involved.

    I have used many different QR skewers over the years, though I've now largely switched to
    solid axles.

    I was almost always able to get enough clamping force at the dropouts for my purposes, but I often
    bent or broke the cam heads of skewers in doing so.

    Recently I've managed to rupture the cam bore on the 9mm QRs that came with a car roof rack. More
    often with 5mm QRs, it's been bent or broken at the root of the shaft, where it joins the
    cross-bored cylindrical end.

    I already know not to use QRs with aluminum levers; those I have broken off at the lever when I've
    tried them.

    I generally set QRs such that they pull out the slack when they are parallel to the axle, then I
    shove 'em down the remaining 90 degrees.

    Is there a particularly robust skewer out there that I could use on my remaining hollow axles? Or
    should I simply leave my QRs a bit looser than seems prudent to me?

    Chalo Colina
     
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