dumb chain removal question

[Jonathan Ives]

Hi,

I have aquired 2 old Raleigh bikes, I'd guess around 15 years old. One is a kids racer, one a
first bike.

I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
"break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame.

Am I not looking hard enough or are these chains never intended to be removed by owners ? No link
looks any different than any other. Maybe they need some more cleaning.

I can make out a made in Germany mark on the chain, but both are Raleigh models.

Any pointers gratefully received.

 

[Adrian Boliston]

"Jonathan Ives" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
> reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
> "break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame....

I think I have seen some chains with a "special" link, but all the chains I have ever used have had
all the links the same and I have just broken *any* link with a "chain tool" which are about a fiver
if I remember rightly.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Jonathan Ives wrote:
> I have aquired 2 old Raleigh bikes, I'd guess around 15 years old. One is a kids racer, one a
> first bike.
>
> I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
> reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
> "break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame.

Most derailleur chains don't have a special link. They don't have the bulky joining link some single
speed or hub-geared bikes have because one would interfere with gear changing or rub on neighbouring
sprockets.

A special tool is required instead - which is used to push pins in and out (partially) so the chain
can be broken and joined. The tools are quite cheap and reasonably easy to use once you get the
knack. Re-joining is more difficult and there's a danger of creating a stiff link - but there are
ways of curing that (see below).

If got a friendly bike shop nearby, perhaps you could buy a tool and get a demonstration with it.

Alternatively, a very good tool of its type is available for only two quid (post free) from:
http://www.mwdyason.ltd.uk/shop.asp?no_category=23&text_company=TOOLS - "Chain link remover"

Instructions: http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/FAQchnRe.shtml

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/FAQtchan.shtml

There are special links available separately for derailleur chain which make it easy to break
and join a chain with no tools at all (SRAM Powerlink is one good example), but I'm not sure
there are any for 5 or 6-speed chains - which I suspect your bikes have. How many sprockets on
the back of each?

> .......or are these chains never intended to be removed by owners

A lot of owners won't ever remove their own chains. They'll either clean chain while on bike (not so
good) or never bother!

~PB

 

[Alex Willmer]

Jonathan Ives wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have aquired 2 old Raleigh bikes, I'd guess around 15 years old. One is a kids racer, one a
> first bike.
>
> I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
> reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
> "break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame.
>
> Am I not looking hard enough or are these chains never intended to be removed by owners ? No link
> looks any different than any other. Maybe they need some more cleaning.
>

If they're the original chains, which it sounds like, then no - there's no special link. You need a
link removal tool which any decent bike shop should stock. An example is below:

http://www.parktool.com/tools/CT_5.shtml

Alternatively, since you'll need to buy a tool anyway - a mechanical chain cleaner may be simpler:

http://www.parktool.com/tools/CG_2.shtml

Regards

Alex

 

[Alex Graham]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> There are special links available separately for derailleur chain which make it easy to break and
> join a chain with no tools at all (SRAM Powerlink is one good example), but I'm not sure there are
> any for 5 or 6-speed chains - which I suspect your bikes have.

Sorry if I'm completely wrong here, but surely chains used with anything up to 7 speed are all the
same, ie 3/32nd. Apart of course from hub gears and single speeds which often use i/8th chains. The
only other size of chain is for 9 and 10 speed bikes. SRAM Powerlinks come in 8 and 9 speed sizes,
but an 8 speed chain is the same width as a chain found on a 5,6 or 7 speed bike... Hence you can
get a powerlink.

Personally I dont bother with them as I know more than one person who has had the link spontaneously
release when sprinting out of the saddle, with a fairly unpleasant outcome.

--

-Alex

----------------------------------
[email protected]

http://alexpg.ath.cx:3353/cycling.php http://www.westerleycycling.org.uk
----------------------------------

 

[Frank X]

"Adrian Boliston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Jonathan Ives" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
> > reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
> > "break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame....
>
> I think I have seen some chains with a "special" link, but all the chains
I
> have ever used have had all the links the same and I have just broken
*any*
> link with a "chain tool" which are about a fiver if I remember rightly.
>
Strange, when I was a kid they had a special link (three speed), and now in the past few years they
have a special link SRAM. But for some reason in between they went off the idea?

 

[Pete Biggs]

Alex Graham wrote:

>> There are special links available separately for derailleur chain which make it easy to break and
>> join a chain with no tools at all (SRAM Powerlink is one good example), but I'm not sure there
>> are any for 5 or 6-speed chains - which I suspect your bikes have.
>
> Sorry if I'm completely wrong here, but surely chains used with anything up to 7 speed are all the
> same, ie 3/32nd.

3/32 is the *internal* width and that is the same with all derailleur chains - right up to 9 (and
10?) speed - but the outside width varies. It's the outside that is relevant to Powerlinks.

Barnetts Manual (that I've just checked) implies 6-speed chains are the same as 7-speed: 7.2 to
7.4mm. But there's no mention of 5sp. I can't find any outside widths at all on Sheldon Brown or
Park Tools.

I've never used 7sp on my bikes but I remember noticing that 8sp chains looked narrower than the old
5 & 6sp chains that I used to use.

8sp = 7.2mm, 9sp = 6.6 to 6.8mm

Some Powerlinks are advertised specifically for 7sp but maybe they are NOS.

> Personally I dont bother with them as I know more than one person who has had the link
> spontaneously release when sprinting out of the saddle, with a fairly unpleasant outcome.

There are very few reports of failures considering how many users there are. I've never had any
problems at all with them, and suspect that some kind of mismatch or misuse is usually responsible
for any trouble. The link is actually at its most secure when the chain is tensioned and sprinting
with them is safe, IMO. I believe they're just as strong as any other link.

~PB

 

[Jonathan Ives]

[email protected] (Jonathan Ives) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... . . .

Wow ! 4 very full answers in a few hours. Many thanks to all, I'll get a tool as described.

 

[Alex Graham]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> 3/32 is the *internal* width and that is the same with all derailleur chains - right up to 9 (and
> 10?) speed - but the outside width varies. It's the outside that is relevant to Powerlinks.
>
> Barnetts Manual (that I've just checked) implies 6-speed chains are the same as 7-speed: 7.2 to
> 7.4mm. But there's no mention of 5sp. I can't find any outside widths at all on Sheldon Brown or
> Park Tools.

5 speed bikes are still made (kids bikes) and they use a normal 5/6/7 chain (PC48) or equiv. I have
a 7 speed bike and I use a PC58 chain which is nominally 8sp. So I think we should conclude that
5/6/7 all use the same spacing between sprockets and everything and can use the same chain, although
different manafacturers in different eras make and made slightly different outside widths. Or
something like that

>
> I've never used 7sp on my bikes but I remember noticing that 8sp chains looked narrower than the
> old 5 & 6sp chains that I used to use.

I think I know what you mean now I come to think of it

 

[Pete Biggs]

Alex Graham wrote:

> 5 speed bikes are still made (kids bikes) and they use a normal 5/6/7 chain (PC48) or equiv. I
> have a 7 speed bike and I use a PC58 chain which is nominally 8sp. So I think we should conclude
> that 5/6/7 all use the same spacing between sprockets and everything and can use the same chain,
> although different manafacturers in different eras make and made slightly different outside
> widths. Or something like that

The spacing between sprockets can be different sometimes but I agree that 7 or 8sp chain is
compatible with 5 and 6 speed as well (because the internal width is the same). But that
doesn't necessarily mean chains on 5 and 6sp bikes were /always/ as narrow (perhaps they've
just stopped making the fat ones now?). Hopefully the other question I x-posted should sort it
out once and for all.

>> I've never used 7sp on my bikes but I remember noticing that 8sp chains looked narrower than the
>> old 5 & 6sp chains that I used to use.
>
> I think I know what you mean now I come to think of it

I could be wrong - maybe they just had a more chunky appearance or my memory is playing
tricks on me.

~PB

 

[Martin]

"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonathan Ives wrote:

> Most derailleur chains don't have a special link. They don't have the bulky joining link some
> single speed or hub-geared bikes have because one would interfere with gear changing or rub on
> neighbouring sprockets.

When I was a teenager the chain broke on my 24" wheel racer (remember them?) in the middle of
nowhere and a very helpful motorist stopped and fixed it with one of those old fashioned circlippy
type links which he just happened to have in his toolbox. I was eternally grateful until I took off
down the road to find it fouled the rear mech at the first turn of the pedals. Imagine riding
several miles having to pedal one revolution, then reverse pedal etc etc to stop the link reaching
the mech! almost as much fun as riding across London with one pedal! (fortunately had toeclips)

 

[Pete Biggs]

martin wrote:
> When I was a teenager the chain broke on my 24" wheel racer (remember them?) in the middle of
> nowhere and a very helpful motorist stopped and fixed it with one of those old fashioned circlippy
> type links which he just happened to have in his toolbox. I was eternally grateful until I took
> off down the road to find it fouled the rear mech at the first turn of the pedals. Imagine riding
> several miles having to pedal one revolution, then reverse pedal etc etc to stop the link reaching
> the mech! almost as much fun as riding across London with one pedal! (fortunately had toeclips)

Not nice but I've done more awkward things on a bike. Scooting a bike with no chain, riding a bike
while pushing another for miles, riding with no brakes at all. Mad! In fact, endlessly talking about
bikes on a newsgroup is just a bit mad innit? I think I'm in need of some sleep ...but maybe a
Bombay Mix sandwich first.

~PB

 

[Martin]

"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> martin wrote:
> > When I was a teenager the chain broke on my 24" wheel racer (remember them?) in the middle of
> > nowhere and a very helpful motorist stopped and fixed it with one of those old fashioned
> > circlippy type links which he just happened to have in his toolbox. I was eternally grateful
> > until I took off down the road to find it fouled the rear mech at the first turn of the pedals.
> > Imagine riding several miles having to pedal one revolution, then reverse pedal etc etc to stop
> > the link reaching the mech! almost as much fun as riding across London with one pedal!
> > (fortunately had toeclips)
>
> Not nice but I've done more awkward things on a bike. Scooting a bike with no chain, riding a bike
> while pushing another for miles, riding with no brakes at all. Mad! In fact, endlessly talking
> about bikes on a newsgroup is just a bit mad innit? I think I'm in need of some sleep ...but maybe
> a Bombay Mix sandwich first.

How about 7 miles of the grand union canal towpath with no saddle (but seat pin), 15 miles across
hilly Northants with a back flat (hoiked the tube out of the way and pulled the tyre beads either
side of the rim, stable but very uncomfy) Carrying wife's bike on my back?.Hiring one of those tag a
longs in the New Forest? (when I picked it up the freewheel was bust and the previous person had not
noticed, or its rider presumably!)

Any more?
>
> ~PB

 

[The Real Lee Ca]

> > Not nice but I've done more awkward things on a bike. Scooting a bike with no chain, riding a
> > bike while pushing another for miles, riding
with
> > no brakes at all. Mad! In fact, endlessly talking about bikes on a newsgroup is just a bit mad
> > innit? I think I'm in need of some sleep ...but maybe a Bombay Mix sandwich first.
>
> How about 7 miles of the grand union canal towpath with no saddle (but seat pin), 15 miles across
> hilly Northants with a back flat (hoiked the tube out of the way and pulled the tyre beads either
> side of the rim, stable but very uncomfy) Carrying wife's bike on my back?.Hiring one of those tag
> a longs in the New Forest? (when I picked it up the freewheel was bust and the previous person had
> not noticed, or its rider presumably!)
>

Hmm still on-topic I see, or at least, just the 'dumb' part.

The Real Lee Casey

 

[Sue]

In message <[email protected]>, The Real Lee Casey
<[email protected]> writes
>
>Hmm still on-topic I see, or at least, just the 'dumb' part.
>
There's only so much you can say about getting a dumb chain off a bike.
--
Sue ]

 

[Simon Brooke]

"Adrian Boliston" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Jonathan Ives" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I'd like to thoroughly clean and lubricate them, but I cannot see how to remove the chains. I'm
> > reasonably technical, but new to bikes. I assumed there would be a removable link or rivet to
> > "break" the chain and enable me to remove it from the triangle of the rear frame....
>
> I think I have seen some chains with a "special" link, but all the chains I have ever used have
> had all the links the same and I have just broken *any* link with a "chain tool" which are about a
> fiver if I remember rightly.

The removable link was common on bikes with sturmey archer gears, but doesn't work with derailleurs
because the slide clip on the side of the removable link jams the mechanism.

When using the chain tool to break the chain don't push the rivet right out - push it through just
far enough to break the chain, but leave it still in the far side plate. This makes it *much* easier
to push back in (obviously from the other side). Also, when you push the rivet back in with the
chain tool you'll find the link is stiff. The solution to this is not to push the rivet right home
at the first pass, just so it is flush with the outside of the far side plate. Then move the chain
onto the rib on the chain tool that is furthest form the 'anvil' side and push the rivet about half
a turn more with the press. This will make the link nice and limber.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...