Dura Ace vs Ultegra hubs

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Wayne T, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost double the price of the
    ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the front hub, but looking closer, it appears that
    all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz..
    The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but would probably be worth it since it only cost a
    few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference
    in quality of the hubs, it appears that they are the same.

    Am I missing anything?
     
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  2. Wayne T wrote:
    > I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost d=
    ouble
    > the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the =
    front
    > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra=

    > money is a titanium which only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.. Th=
    e
    > front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but would probably be worth=
    it
    > since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and =
    my
    > wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference in quality of the hubs,=
    it
    > appears that they are the same.
    >=20
    > Am I missing anything?

    Yep. The Dura-Ace has greater prestige and snob value.

    Sheldon "Quality Without The Stigma Of Low Price" Brown
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | I am come=85in a very moralizing strain, to observe that our =
    |
    | pleasures in this world are always to be paid for, and that we | often purchase them at a great
    | disadvantage, giving ready-monied | actual happiness for a draft on the future, that may not be
    | honored. | -- Henry Tilney, Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
    Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
    parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost
    double
    > the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
    front
    > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which
    > only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.. The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but
    > would probably be worth it since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and
    > my wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference in quality of the hubs, it appears that they are
    > the same.
    >
    > Am I missing anything?
    >
    I always thought it was the harder races and better bearings that made D/A better. I've had both
    Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when spinning the axle. Even better
    are my Mavic hubs...
     
  4. Bluto

    Bluto Guest

    "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when spinning the
    > axle. Even better are my Mavic hubs...

    It's 'cause those Mavic hubs have industrial standard sealed bearing cartridges, like every other
    kind of high quality rotating machinery on earth besides bicycles.

    A $20 SunRace hub with sealed bearings is smoother than Dura Ace and Ultegra too. Same for Phil
    Wood, Bullseye, American Classic, Hi-E, Suntour, Sachs, Chris King, Real, White Industries, Ringle,
    Paul, Nuke Proof, Formula, Hadley, TNT, etc., etc., and all others who make (made) hubs with sealed
    cartridge bearings.

    But none from Shimano! Nor Campagnolo; they use cartridge bearings some, but not industrially
    standard units.

    Perhaps it would lack a certain mystique for them to offer reliable, smooth running, replaceable
    rolling element hubs that never needed adjustment.

    Chalo Colina
     
  5. Alan

    Alan Guest

    > Am I missing anything?
    >
    Dura Ace like XTR have bearings that are laser matched so that they are all the same size, better
    races too, in general - much higher tolerance. Ti freehub bodies are not cheap. That's why no one
    else offers such an option. Imagine how much a Chris King hub would be with a Ti freehub body?

    alan
     
  6. wayne-<< I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost double the price of
    the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the front hub, but looking closer, it
    appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which only lightens the hub by
    35gr or 1.2 oz.

    Front axle on DA is also different, a three piece aluminum center affair.

    << These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes

    Didn't you say the spacing was 135mm???

    DA, etc are 130mm...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  7. alan-<< Dura Ace like XTR have bearings that are laser matched so that they are all the same size,

    LOL...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  8. Mikeyankee

    Mikeyankee Guest

    >I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother
    when spinning the axle.

    I haven't observed that difference between Ultegra and DA, but have between Record and Veloce. The
    Record hub feels smoother on the workstand, yes, but I've been unable to discern any difference on
    the road when switching to the Veloce wheel.

    BTW I overhaul all my hubs once a year (would be more if I rode in the rain) and always use new
    Campy grade balls. One of my Ultegra hubsets has ~19 k miles and the other ~10k. If anything they
    seem to get smoother with age. No pitting of cups and cones.

    Mike Yankee

    (Address is munged to thwart spammers. To reply, delete everything after "com".)
     
  9. [email protected] (Bluto) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when spinning the
    > > axle. Even better are my Mavic hubs...
    >
    > It's 'cause those Mavic hubs have industrial standard sealed bearing cartridges, like every other
    > kind of high quality rotating machinery on earth besides bicycles.
    >
    > A $20 SunRace hub with sealed bearings is smoother than Dura Ace and Ultegra too. Same for Phil
    > Wood, Bullseye, American Classic, Hi-E, Suntour, Sachs, Chris King, Real, White Industries,
    > Ringle, Paul, Nuke Proof, Formula, Hadley, TNT, etc., etc., and all others who make (made) hubs
    > with sealed cartridge bearings.
    >
    > But none from Shimano! Nor Campagnolo; they use cartridge bearings some, but not industrially
    > standard units.
    >
    > Perhaps it would lack a certain mystique for them to offer reliable, smooth running, replaceable
    > rolling element hubs that never needed adjustment.
    >
    > Chalo Colina

    I think one has to consider the jewelry value of bike components in the purchase decision. After
    all, we spend hundreds, even thousands on baubles to hang on our bodies just because we like the
    way they look. So what's the big deal about spending one or two hundred on a hub to hang on your
    beloved bike if you like the way it looks? Don't even try to justify it on the basis of improved
    performance. Shimano, Campy, Crane Creek etc. all make their top of the line stuff look
    great…like metal sculpture. If you can afford it and it makes your smile bigger when you ride, go
    for it, I say. If getting great performance for at a good price turns you on, go for the name
    brand, bottom-of-the-line hub. They work well. Me? I kinda like jewelry, but Ultegra is pretty
    enough for me.

    Steve Shapiro
     
  10. Chluu907

    Chluu907 Guest

    I haven't noticed any difference between the Dura-Ace & Ultegra Hubs. My girlfriend has Open Pros
    laced to Dura-Ace hubs while I have them laced to Ultegra Hubs.

    I haven't noticed any difference in the smoothness of the hub. Perhaps it's an issue of longevity.
    Maybe Sheldon or Jobst could shed some light on this.

    Claude
     
  11. Bluto

    Bluto Guest

    [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote:

    (me):
    > >It's 'cause those Mavic hubs have industrial standard sealed bearing cartridges, like every other
    > >kind of high quality rotating machinery on earth besides bicycles.
    >
    > Watches use jewels.

    I guess, technically speaking, that watches are "machinery", but like dial indicators, barometers,
    and other jewelled mechanisms, they are not what I was talking about.

    > Actually in many applications, cartridge bearings are not used. In fact, wheel bearings in cars
    > and trucks often use pressed in races and separate seals. Much more like a bicycle wheel design
    > than a throw away cartridge bearing.

    No, it's much more like a three-piece cartridge, configurable by assorting inner race w/rollers,
    outer race, and seal separately for different applications. It may be three pieces, but it's
    completely modular, replaceable, and manufactured to _much_ finer tolerances than bicycle cup 'n
    cone bearings.

    > And of course, those sealed bearing have seal friction so they seem smooth but they can never have
    > the free rolling "smoothness" of a Superbe Pro track hub or a number of other such hubs.

    2RS rubber contact sealed bearings might have more seal drag than pista parts (which don't, after
    all, have seals), but running drag will be less with the bearing that has tighter tolerances, better
    race alignments, and smoother surfaces. The best that Suntour or Campy can supply can't hope to
    compare to the best offered by industrial bearing houses.

    Besides, if you want to compare apples to apples, then the cartridge to compare against is a ZZ
    double metal shielded type. Those are free-running as can be.

    > I also imagine trying to stuff a sealed bearing into a cassette hub might take up some valuable
    > mm's that are needed to pack everything in there.

    That's the problem of a cassette hub as envisioned by Shimano, not the problem of replaceable
    bearings. I could design a "cassette" that had room only for sleeve bearings, but that would
    be dumb too.

    > The standard heavy duty bearing for rotating machinery is the Timken roller bearing which in my
    > experience most often comes in at least two pieces and with separate seals.

    It meets my criteria for total replaceability, standardization, and finer, more controlled
    tolerances than those offered by loose ball assemblies.

    > And of course, rotating equipment like internal combustion engines and turbochargers most often
    > use sleeve type bearings.

    Only when they're pressure lubed. And there are plenty of IC motors
    (m.f. 2-strokes) that use ball or roller cartridges, unsealed of course.

    My point is that industrially, any machine that works even remotely like a bicycle from a
    torque/power/RPM standpoint has cartridge bearings.

    > Throwaway sealed cartridge bearings have their place. They are cheap and are a plug in design. But
    > they are far from standard, especially in high load areas or where a specific design can optimize
    > the specific design needs.

    Those applications might call for a full complement bearing cartridge, or a roller bearing
    cartridge, or an angular contact bearing cartridge, or a tapered roller bearing set (which amounts
    to a cartridge).

    No decent machine designer would permanently affix bearing races to a machine that was not designed
    to be disposed of instead of serviced. No decent machine designer would spec bearings that required
    periodic preload adjustment when a maintenance-free alternative was just as cheap to manufacture.
    And no decent machine designer would use unique dedicated bearing components when industrially
    standard parts would do the job better. Yet this is just what the major parts mfgrs have given us
    for our bicycles.

    Why? I can only speculate that the cost of manufacturing, say, Shimano hubs would make most cyclists
    laugh or cry if they knew how tiny it really was. There's no other good reason to be so intransigent
    about adopting well-supported, economical industrial bearing cartridges for such a component. Unless
    perhaps you count planned obsolescence, though there are other ways to accomplish that.

    Look at it this way: would it be acceptable to configure parts in such a way that each different
    gruppo required its own unique chain? Or that when that chain wore out, you likely had to get a new
    wheelset? This is precisely the effect of hub-specific cones and non-replaceable cups in Shimano
    hubs. From an engineering standpoint, it's an outrageous shortcoming. Yet it is a proven maketing
    success. Buying new parts must be half the fun for Shimano users.

    Chalo Colina "opt-out of Brand S"
     
  12. Trent Piepho

    Trent Piepho Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Wayne T
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost double the price of the
    >ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the front hub, but looking closer, it appears
    >that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2
    >oz.. The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but would probably be worth it since it only
    >cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes. As far as the
    >difference in quality of the hubs, it appears that they are the same.

    The Dura-Ace quick-releases are all smooth and shiny, while the ultegra have a duller anodized type
    finish. The hubs have a nicer looking finish too.

    Dura-ace front hubs also have one more ball in their bearings. What this does, other than let you
    say, "See this hub, it goes to 11," I have no idea.

    >
    >Am I missing anything?
     
  13. Bluto <[email protected]> wrote:
    : [email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote:

    : Look at it this way: would it be acceptable to configure parts in such a way that each different
    : gruppo required its own unique chain? Or that when that chain wore out, you likely had to get a
    : new wheelset? This is precisely the effect of hub-specific cones and non-replaceable cups in
    : Shimano hubs. From an engineering standpoint, it's an outrageous shortcoming. Yet it is a proven
    : maketing success. Buying new parts must be half the fun for Shimano users.

    I couldn't agree more with your assertions - the finish on the bearing surfaces of a set of Ultegra
    cones I bought was laughable except that they cost $9 each. Consider that the 'engineering' of
    'standard' bicycle components has some historical precendent and is perhaps somewhat tied to
    notional standards rather than an economic conspiracy.

    Just the same I can't understand why an acceptable bearing surface, ie, polished, would be
    prohibitively more expensive than a coarse machine tool finish.

    Cheerz, Lynzz
     
  14. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

  15. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... Wayne T wrote:
    > I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost
    double
    > the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
    front
    > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which
    > only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.. The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but
    > would probably be worth it since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and
    > my wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference in quality of the hubs, it appears that they are
    > the same.
    >
    > Am I missing anything?

    Yep. The Dura-Ace has greater prestige and snob value.

    And to some, that is important. To me, I'd rather save my money.

    Sheldon "Quality Without The Stigma Of Low Price" Brown
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | I am come…in a very moralizing strain, to observe that our | pleasures in this world are always to
    | be paid for, and that we | often purchase them at a great disadvantage, giving ready-monied |
    | actual happiness for a draft on the future, that may not be honored. | -- Henry Tilney, Northanger
    | Abbey by Jane Austen |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
    Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
    parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  16. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost
    > double
    > > the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
    > front
    > > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium
    > > which only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.. The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz,
    > > but would probably be worth
    it
    > > since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and
    my
    > > wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference in quality of the hubs,
    it
    > > appears that they are the same.
    > >
    > > Am I missing anything?
    > >
    > I always thought it was the harder races and better bearings that made D/A better. I've had both
    > Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when spinning the axle. Even
    > better are my Mavic hubs...

    OK, that is good to hear. I was afraid that it was just the titanium that made the DA more
    expensive. Still Sheldon seems to think that the extra money is really prestige. How much better
    are your Mavic hubs over the DA's and are they lighter, if so by how much. Also, what is the
    difference in cost?
     
  17. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > wayne-<< I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money,
    almost
    > double the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
    front
    > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which
    > only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.
    >
    > Front axle on DA is also different, a three piece aluminum center affair.

    OK, this probably is why the front hub is a little lighter. However, are the races and bearing
    better quality enough to make paying almost double for a rear hub?
    >
    >
    > << These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes
    >
    > Didn't you say the spacing was 135mm???

    I was mistaken. Builder said that he would only spread it to 130mm so as to give me more flexibility
    if I wished to put on a set of super light wheels for a fast club rides.
    >
    > DA, etc are 130mm...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  18. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    "Bluto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when spinning the
    > > axle. Even better are my Mavic hubs...
    >
    > It's 'cause those Mavic hubs have industrial standard sealed bearing cartridges, like every other
    > kind of high quality rotating machinery on earth besides bicycles.
    >
    > A $20 SunRace hub with sealed bearings is smoother than Dura Ace and Ultegra too. Same for Phil
    > Wood, Bullseye, American Classic, Hi-E, Suntour, Sachs, Chris King, Real, White Industries,
    > Ringle, Paul, Nuke Proof, Formula, Hadley, TNT, etc., etc., and all others who make (made) hubs
    > with sealed cartridge bearings.
    >
    > But none from Shimano! Nor Campagnolo; they use cartridge bearings some, but not industrially
    > standard units.
    >
    > Perhaps it would lack a certain mystique for them to offer reliable, smooth running, replaceable
    > rolling element hubs that never needed adjustment.

    Which hubs do you recommend? Excuse my memory but are you the one who perfers Phil Woods? If so, are
    there any lighter hubs that are as good?
    >
    > Chalo Colina
     
  19. Wayne T

    Wayne T Guest

    "Trent Piepho" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Wayne T
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost
    double
    > >the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
    front
    > >hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the extra money is a titanium which
    > >only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz.. The front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but
    > >would probably be worth
    it
    > >since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes. As
    > >far as the difference in quality of the hubs,
    it
    > >appears that they are the same.
    >
    > The Dura-Ace quick-releases are all smooth and shiny, while the ultegra
    have a
    > duller anodized type finish. The hubs have a nicer looking finish too.

    Sounds nice but I find that hubs tend to pick up a lot of road dirt and are a pain to keep shiny.
    So, perhaps it ain't worth the extra bucks for me.

    >
    > Dura-ace front hubs also have one more ball in their bearings. What this does, other than let you
    > say, "See this hub, it goes to 11," I have no
    idea.

    Hmmm, wonder if it means that the bearings will last 10% longer since there is 10% more bearings.
    Ha! Funny, I remember years ago I was told that it was better to remove the fixed unit that
    contained bearings and to replace it with lose bearing because you could put in more bearings.
    >
    > >
    > >Am I missing anything?
    > >
    >
     
  20. Paul Kopit

    Paul Kopit Guest

    Can you put an XTR hub body on an Ultegra hub?

    If so, is it the same as DA hub?
     
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