Durable Rims for Road Wheels - Recommendations?



[email protected] wrote:

> Since you insist, I suggest that you might ponder an instantaneous
> velocity (not speed) of 28.3 mph (not 25.5) at 45 degrees to the
> ground (not forward and not vertically) on a bicycle rim of any size
> whose axle is moving forward at 20 mph.


It's impolite to ask your discussion partner to complete some
mathematical excercise when you have repeatedly declined to do the one
he has repeatedly asked of you:

>Carl, you agree that a point on the rim will accelerate and decelerate
>twice per rotation. Do you also agree that the distance travelled

per
>rotation is 2piR forward, 0 backwards, 2R up, and 2R down?


â
 
41 wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Since you insist, I suggest that you might ponder an instantaneous
> > velocity (not speed) of 28.3 mph (not 25.5) at 45 degrees to the
> > ground (not forward and not vertically) on a bicycle rim of any size
> > whose axle is moving forward at 20 mph.

>
> It's impolite to ask your discussion partner to complete some
> mathematical excercise when you have repeatedly declined to do the one
> he has repeatedly asked of you:
>
> >Carl, you agree that a point on the rim will accelerate and decelerate
> >twice per rotation. Do you also agree that the distance travelled

> per
> >rotation is 2piR forward, 0 backwards, 2R up, and 2R down?

>


True, however, in this case I'm afraid it might be for the better :)
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Mike DeMicco <[email protected]> wrote:

> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Sun CR-18, half the price of a Mavic Open Pro, at least as durable,
> > and a whopping 50 grams heavier (probably less than the Open Pro's
> > manufacturing tolerance).

>
> It only has single eyelets.


Get used to it. Few rims have proper spoke nipple sockets these days.
They are too expensive to fabricate and install, and cut into the profit
margins from selling $60 rims plastered in meaningless tech jargon to
fool the punters.

That said, the CR-18 is actually quite durable, being polished rather
than anodized. I've had good results with the polished Sun rims such as
the CR-16a and the CR-18. Given the dearth of polished rims, these are
the ones I would choose once my back stock of MA2s is gone.
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mike DeMicco <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > Sun CR-18, half the price of a Mavic Open Pro, at least as durable,
> > > and a whopping 50 grams heavier (probably less than the Open Pro's
> > > manufacturing tolerance).

> >
> > It only has single eyelets.

>
> Get used to it. Few rims have proper spoke nipple sockets these days.
> They are too expensive to fabricate and install, and cut into the profit
> margins from selling $60 rims plastered in meaningless tech jargon to
> fool the punters.


I can't believe that cost per se has anything to do with it. The goal
of the manufacturers seems to be to inflate the cost with useless
features that cost money but detract from value. The MA2 was not an
expensive rim, in constant dollars it is much cheaper than an Open Pro.


Instead, it seems to me that the only selling point of them is
durability. That has zero market value, and so the cost cannot be
passed on to the final purchaser. On the other hand, value detractors
such as machined sidewalls and welded joints can be sold, because they
supposedly give you a better experience.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:
> > I am looking to build a set of road wheels and am looking for
> > suggestions for suitable rims. Of course, I would like them to be as
> > light as possible without sacrificing the durability.
> >
> > While we all appreciate a litle nostalgia please limit your
> > suggestions to rims that are still available.

>
> I suggest the ST17 "Elegant" from DRC, or if you need a more solid rim,
> try the ST19. However, for a 700C road wheel suitable for general use,
> including fast road riding, dirt tracks and reasonable luggage
> carrying, the ST17 is fine.
>
> As an alternative, consider the Ambrosio "Nexus". It has the same ERD
> as the Mavic MA2, which might allow you to use your old spokes. Both of
> these rims are double eyeletted, available in 36 hole with a silver
> finish.
>
> I have built wheels with both of these rims, and the results have been
> completely satisfactory.
>
> s.


Do you know of an online reseller of the Nexus? I've been looking for
some. FWIU, they actually bought the MA-2 die molds from Mavic, extrude
the stock in France, then ship the stock to Italy where Ambrosio rolls
them. I've got a set (relabelled for US sale as the "Torelli Master")
and they're fine rims.

I'm also a fan of the Ambrosio Excursion, their only other non-machined
road rim.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"41" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Mike DeMicco <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > news:[email protected]:
> > >
> > > > Sun CR-18, half the price of a Mavic Open Pro, at least as
> > > > durable, and a whopping 50 grams heavier (probably less than
> > > > the Open Pro's manufacturing tolerance).
> > >
> > > It only has single eyelets.

> >
> > Get used to it. Few rims have proper spoke nipple sockets these
> > days. They are too expensive to fabricate and install, and cut into
> > the profit margins from selling $60 rims plastered in meaningless
> > tech jargon to fool the punters.

>
> I can't believe that cost per se has anything to do with it. The goal
> of the manufacturers seems to be to inflate the cost with useless
> features that cost money but detract from value. The MA2 was not an
> expensive rim, in constant dollars it is much cheaper than an Open
> Pro.


You're being very nice to the rim makers. The useless features are
generally done in the extrusion or anodizing tank, so these can be done
very cheaply with little or no extra time and little or no extra labor.
Installing nipple sockets requires a machine to form the sockets,
another to install them in the rim, and the people to run those
machines. I would bet that removing that step cuts the cost of
producing a rim in half. It probably costs $5 to produce a $60 rim now.

> Instead, it seems to me that the only selling point of them is
> durability. That has zero market value, and so the cost cannot be
> passed on to the final purchaser. On the other hand, value detractors
> such as machined sidewalls and welded joints can be sold, because
> they supposedly give you a better experience.


They're hypable and marketable. Durability is a cost center. If you
can get the punters to buy a new rim or two every other year, zoom goes
your profit margin.

Every decision made about rim design is about the money, and how to fool
John Q. Public into parting with ever more their wallet contents. The
utter lack of critical independent testing (e.g., by bike magazines,
motivated by ad revenue) is complicit in defrauding the public further.
Thus we end up with break-o-matic rims and fragile plastic frames that
can't withstand the normal bumps of daily life, all touted as "progress"
to a gullible public who wants to Be Like Lance (except for the
training, discipline and diet part). I love seeing fat guys on a Madone
in full Discovery team kit...

We need a resurrection of the Technical Trials in which equipment is
subjected to rigorous, real life testing.
 
On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:08:57 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>It probably costs $5 to produce a $60 rim now.


[snip]

Dear Tim,

What accounts for the other $55?

That is, if it costs a manufacturer only $5 to make the rim, what
steps and middlemen do you think add $55 to the price?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
Tim McNamara said:
In article <[email protected]>,
"41" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Mike DeMicco <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > news:[email protected]:
> > >
> > > > Sun CR-18, half the price of a Mavic Open Pro, at least as
> > > > durable, and a whopping 50 grams heavier (probably less than
> > > > the Open Pro's manufacturing tolerance).
> > >
> > > It only has single eyelets.

> >
> > Get used to it. Few rims have proper spoke nipple sockets these
> > days. They are too expensive to fabricate and install, and cut into
> > the profit margins from selling $60 rims plastered in meaningless
> > tech jargon to fool the punters.

>
> I can't believe that cost per se has anything to do with it. The goal
> of the manufacturers seems to be to inflate the cost with useless
> features that cost money but detract from value. The MA2 was not an
> expensive rim, in constant dollars it is much cheaper than an Open
> Pro.


You're being very nice to the rim makers. The useless features are
generally done in the extrusion or anodizing tank, so these can be done
very cheaply with little or no extra time and little or no extra labor.
Installing nipple sockets requires a machine to form the sockets,
another to install them in the rim, and the people to run those
machines. I would bet that removing that step cuts the cost of
producing a rim in half. It probably costs $5 to produce a $60 rim now.

> Instead, it seems to me that the only selling point of them is
> durability. That has zero market value, and so the cost cannot be
> passed on to the final purchaser. On the other hand, value detractors
> such as machined sidewalls and welded joints can be sold, because
> they supposedly give you a better experience.


They're hypable and marketable. Durability is a cost center. If you
can get the punters to buy a new rim or two every other year, zoom goes
your profit margin.

Every decision made about rim design is about the money, and how to fool
John Q. Public into parting with ever more their wallet contents. The
utter lack of critical independent testing (e.g., by bike magazines,
motivated by ad revenue) is complicit in defrauding the public further.
Thus we end up with break-o-matic rims and fragile plastic frames that
can't withstand the normal bumps of daily life, all touted as "progress"
to a gullible public who wants to Be Like Lance (except for the
training, discipline and diet part). I love seeing fat guys on a Madone
in full Discovery team kit...

We need a resurrection of the Technical Trials in which equipment is
subjected to rigorous, real life testing.
How do we get the "Technical Trials" going? Damon Rinard used to do some nice testing before Trek hired him.
I am a fat guy that likes to ride and wishes I had the discipline of Lance and the time for training like he did. I spend a lot of my time building wheels. Ater 25 years+ of 10,000 miles+/year I slowed bicycle riding down considerably. (No full Team Discovery kit here, but a few US Postal items from the Master's Team left.)
I don't think the sockets are a panacea. They make building wheels a little easier. Eyelets (even single ones like Sun CR-18, Velocity Synergy, etc.) usually make easier nipple alignment. I have experienced cracking around spoke holes more with rims that have eyelets/sockets than rims with no eyelets at all. I once put a new set of FIR rims in the recycle bin that were fully eyeletted/socketed when they cracked upon stress relieving them. I am not sure that in inner web walls of the rims helped support the additional forces, but every spoke hole had cracks around it with just one set of spoke squeezing.
Fascinating features and claims for low mass are marketable.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mike DeMicco <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> > > Sun CR-18, half the price of a Mavic Open Pro, at least as durable,
> > > and a whopping 50 grams heavier (probably less than the Open Pro's
> > > manufacturing tolerance).

> >
> > It only has single eyelets.

>
> Get used to it. Few rims have proper spoke nipple sockets these days.
> They are too expensive to fabricate and install, and cut into the profit
> margins from selling $60 rims plastered in meaningless tech jargon to
> fool the punters.
>
> That said, the CR-18 is actually quite durable, being polished rather
> than anodized. I've had good results with the polished Sun rims such as
> the CR-16a and the CR-18. Given the dearth of polished rims, these are
> the ones I would choose once my back stock of MA2s is gone.


I `discovered' CR-18 rims because they are the one decent
ISO 630 rim to be had. They are better than most rims of
any class, according to my lights. Durable, good looking,
round; and they have eyelets.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Hank Wirtz" <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Steve Sr. wrote:
> > > I am looking to build a set of road wheels and am looking for
> > > suggestions for suitable rims. Of course, I would like them to be
> > > as light as possible without sacrificing the durability.
> > >
> > > While we all appreciate a litle nostalgia please limit your
> > > suggestions to rims that are still available.

> >
> > I suggest the ST17 "Elegant" from DRC, or if you need a more solid
> > rim, try the ST19. However, for a 700C road wheel suitable for
> > general use, including fast road riding, dirt tracks and reasonable
> > luggage carrying, the ST17 is fine.
> >
> > As an alternative, consider the Ambrosio "Nexus". It has the same
> > ERD as the Mavic MA2, which might allow you to use your old spokes.
> > Both of these rims are double eyeletted, available in 36 hole with
> > a silver finish.
> >
> > I have built wheels with both of these rims, and the results have
> > been completely satisfactory.
> >
> > s.

>
> Do you know of an online reseller of the Nexus? I've been looking for
> some. FWIU, they actually bought the MA-2 die molds from Mavic,
> extrude the stock in France, then ship the stock to Italy where
> Ambrosio rolls them. I've got a set (relabelled for US sale as the
> "Torelli Master") and they're fine rims.


Hmm. IIRC the Torelli Master rim was not quite the same shape as the
MA2. I haven't seen the Ambrosio Master, but according to their Web
site Hewitt Cycles in the UK sells them (first hit on Google for
"Ambrosio Nexus"):

http://www.hewittcycles.co.uk/

Also Deeside Cycles:

http://deesidecycles.com/info/ambrosio.htm

I think that EuroAsia is the U.S. importer of Ambrosio rims- you could
have your LBS check the catalog for them.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:08:57 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >It probably costs $5 to produce a $60 rim now.

>
> [snip]
>
> Dear Tim,
>
> What accounts for the other $55?


I'd guess about $25 in profit to the manufacturer, plus

> That is, if it costs a manufacturer only $5 to make the rim, what
> steps and middlemen do you think add $55 to the price?


Shipping to the wholesaler, plus the wholesaler's profit; shipping to
the retailer, plus the retailer's profit.
 
Tim McNamara wrote:

[snip]

> That said, the CR-18 is actually quite durable, being polished rather
> than anodized. I've had good results with the polished Sun rims such as
> the CR-16a and the CR-18. Given the dearth of polished rims, these are
> the ones I would choose once my back stock of MA2s is gone.


Dear TIm,

I emailed Sun and asked:

| Can you please tell me if the Sun CR 18 rim is polished, anodized, or
| available in both versions?
|
| I couldn't tell from the web site and the downloaded catalogue

Sun replied:

| What size of CR18 were you looking for? Most of the size's are
| available in both versions.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 

Similar threads