Dynamos vs. LEDs (Re: Cyclist Explodes! (NW Cambridge Plans))

[Peter Clinch]

Anthony Jones wrote:

> Really? I've never experienced that in several years of daily cycle
> commuting.

The difference between subjective and objective time, I suspect. My
standlights have never gone out on me while waiting, though often lights
seem to stay red for hours at the very least, and during those "hours" I
often check back to see if the standlight's still burning. It
invariably has been to date.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Alan Braggins) writes:
|> In article <[email protected]>, Tony Raven wrote:
|> >
|> >I think from his own statements El Swear that Nick falls into the
|> >category of people who rarely cycle and take the car instead
|>
|> Yes, but because he was fed up with being injured, not because
|> he was unable to find a heavy enough LED light.

That is indeed true!

I may find the LED situation irritating, but it sounds as if it is
improving rapidly and it never was more than a nuisance. Dammit,
with older dynamos, whenever a front light bulb developed an
erratic connexion, the rear light bulb would blow! That wasn't
enough to stop me using dynamos, though it was a PITA.

The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Clive George]

"Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
> reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
> them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.

Aren't the bikes which fit this model in mainland Europe typically fitted
with dynamos?

cheers,
clive

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> writes:
|> Anthony Jones wrote:
|>
|> > Really? I've never experienced that in several years of daily cycle
|> > commuting.
|>
|> The difference between subjective and objective time, I suspect. ...

Nope. Actual measurement, in some cases. It doesn't happen often
and, when it did, I found an alternative route or varied my time
of travel ASAP.

Try turning right at a junction with no traffic lights on a wide road
when heading into a typical town at 5-6 pm - gaps in the traffic may
be rare indeed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[R.C. Payne]

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "R.C. Payne" <[email protected]> writes:
> |> Nick Maclaren wrote:
> |> > In article <[email protected]>,
> |> > Pyromancer <[email protected]> writes:
> |> >
> |> > |> Though TBH I've said before that if the authorities are serious about
> |> > |> getting people to cycle seriously as an alternative to driving, they
> |> > |> need to persuade the bike shops to stop selling so much sports equipment
> |> > |> and start selling proper roadsters with full guards, built-in lights,
> |> > |> comfortable riding position, etc. I had to go to York to buy mine (I'm
> |> > |> in Leeds), not exactly practical for someone who lives in Cambridge.
> |> >
> |> > I had to go to Holland for mine!
> |>
> |> University Cycles by Mitcham's Corner sells them (I bought mine there
> |> over the summer). ...
>
> But only small ones. That was why I had to go to Holland. I could
> have got the right size in York, but I wanted the Sachs gears.

I would say I am at the tall end of "normal people" (about 6'2"), and
had no trouble getting one that was right for me, so I would have
thought the majority of the population of Cambridge could would be
covered by his normal size range (and could he really not get a big one
in to order?).

Robin

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Clive George" <[email protected]> writes:
|> "Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|> news:[email protected]...
|>
|> > The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
|> > reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
|> > them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.
|>
|> Aren't the bikes which fit this model in mainland Europe typically fitted
|> with dynamos?

Yes. But, for safe use in the UK, you need to upgrade the lighting
to at least two lights at both front and rear, preferably with no
common components :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Clive George]

"Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Try turning right at a junction with no traffic lights on a wide road
> when heading into a typical town at 5-6 pm - gaps in the traffic may
> be rare indeed.

I suspect I'd get bored, and either create one, or split the turn into two
by turning left then right/U.

cheers,
clive

 

[Tony Raven]

Nick Maclaren wrote on 12/10/2006 14:30 +0100:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
> |>
> |> Being peripherally involved in capacitors that will start a North
> |> American truck engine several times over on a single charge, I'm sure
> |> its not beyond the wit of a capacitor to run a good "be seen" light for
> |> a minute or two.
>
> And they are, of course, small enough to put in your pocket.
>

No, but neither is a truck starter motor small enough to fit on your
bike. OTOH its not much bigger than your eight D-cells and you don't
need anything that big to run a light for a few minutes.


> A minute or two is not long enough. It isn't rare to have to wait
> several minutes at a junction or to turn right.
>

Have you timed it? I have a crossing where I have to wait for hours for
the light to change after I press the button. I timed it and it came to
all of 20 seconds.


--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Tony Raven]

Nick Maclaren wrote on 12/10/2006 15:23 +0100:
>
> I may find the LED situation irritating, but it sounds as if it is
> improving rapidly and it never was more than a nuisance. Dammit,
> with older dynamos, whenever a front light bulb developed an
> erratic connexion, the rear light bulb would blow! That wasn't
> enough to stop me using dynamos, though it was a PITA.
>
> The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
> reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
> them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.
>

It sounds very much like your lack of cycling has meant you have not
kept up with developments. What your old dynamo and bulbs did is miles
away from good modern dynamo and battery lights - you are doing the
equivalent of critiquing a modern PC having stopped using computers
after the Sinclair ZX.


--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Chris Johns]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Pyromancer wrote:

> Though TBH I've said before that if the authorities are serious about
> getting people to cycle seriously as an alternative to driving, they

What makes you think they are or would be?
--
Chris Johns

 

[Alistair Gunn]

In uk.rec.cycling Nick Maclaren twisted the electrons to say:
> Each nuisance with a bicycle may, in itself, be minor - but the cumulative
> hassle is significant.

.... the same fact is, of course, also true of cars. Except that the
nuisances of the car tend to be more expensive.

> With the sort you like, rechargeable or not, they (or, more likely, their
> batteries) are likely to be stolen the first time that their user is late
> for a meeting and forgets to remove them.

Of course, the first time the user leaves their keys in the ignition and
fails to lock the doors their car is likely to be stolen. What's your
point?

> And, when removing them, he has to add them to the other junk that he
> has to carry around and into the meeting.

Smaller in size than 2 tins of coke ... One might assume that the
cyclist has a bag or pockets available to them?

> If such lights have a reasonable life between charges or batteries (say,
> 30+ hours)

The CatEye EL300 & EL530 front lights, and TL-AU100 & TL-LD1100 all meet
or exceed your required runtime (according to the manufacturer[1]), and I
note that none of them require D-cells in order to achieve it.

Just get a hub dynamo and bolt the lights onto the bicycle ...

> most commuters could do what I have done - wire them onto
> the bicycle at the start of each winter. And, yes, I used a dynamo as
> the main lights - the battery ones were to ensure that there would be
> one light even in the event of a failure on route.

So presumably, even if you'd not had a dynamo you'd still have been
carting 2 battery lights around? Quite how often do bicycle lights fail
in your experience??? I can think of precisely 1 lighting failure (as
opposed to dead batteries) in the past 8 years, and even that wasn't a
total failure at that ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

 

[Clive George]

"Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Clive George" <[email protected]> writes:
> |> "Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> |> news:[email protected]...
> |>
> |> > The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
> |> > reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
> |> > them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.
> |>
> |> Aren't the bikes which fit this model in mainland Europe typically
> fitted
> |> with dynamos?
>
> Yes. But, for safe use in the UK, you need to upgrade the lighting
> to at least two lights at both front and rear, preferably with no
> common components :-(

Not IME. But then I've used dynamo lighting with no standlights since I was
about 12. Things I have learned:

Filament rear bulbs are ****. Get an LED rear lamp. (I realise that what we
have on our bikes is more of a keenie's solution, being home-built, but
there are easily available commercial models).

Having no light when you're stopped isn't actually a problem. Answers
include : not stopping (ie planning junctions such that you don't need to
stop), stopping in a sensible place (not in the middle of the road). Traffic
lights are generally well lit, so stopping there isn't a problem.

Example from last night - riding along the A65, coming to a right turn.
Traffic both ways, not much space to pull across that from behind. So I
carried straight on, freewheeling, then pulled a U turn when the traffic had
passed. I certainly wouldn't stop in the middle of that road.

cheers,
clive

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
"R.C. Payne" <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> I would say I am at the tall end of "normal people" (about 6'2"), and
|> had no trouble getting one that was right for me, so I would have
|> thought the majority of the population of Cambridge could would be
|> covered by his normal size range (and could he really not get a big one
|> in to order?).

Then I doubt that it was a traditional roadster. I am 6'2", too. The
last one made for sale in the UK was the original Raleigh Police model,
but the last version of even that was reduced in size (by shortening
the stem). You may be happy with a 'utility' bicycle, but I am not.

You will almost certainly have bought one that does not allow you to
both ankle and straighten your knees, while not carrying weight on your
hands and not reducing the downhill braking efficiency unreasonably.
To do all of that, you need a frame bigger (which also includes longer)
than any made for sale in the UK. For a normal person of 6'2", you
need a 25-26" frame, and a 45"+ wheelbase and very shallow seat angle.

The only one I found was in York, which sold Gazelle.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> > A minute or two is not long enough. It isn't rare to have to wait
|> > several minutes at a junction or to turn right.
|>
|> Have you timed it? I have a crossing where I have to wait for hours for
|> the light to change after I press the button. I timed it and it came to
|> all of 20 seconds.

I have timed some of the Cambridge ones at 1'30", but most of them
have been changed. However, I was talking about traffic lights,
especially when you have to wait for the other side to clear or
in a queue.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

 

[Alan Braggins]

Clive George wrote:
>"Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> "Clive George" <[email protected]> writes:
>> |> "Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> |>
>> |> > The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
>> |> > reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
>> |> > them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.
>> |>
>> |> Aren't the bikes which fit this model in mainland Europe typically
>> |> fitted with dynamos?
>>
>> Yes. But, for safe use in the UK, you need to upgrade the lighting
>> to at least two lights at both front and rear, preferably with no
>> common components :-(
>
>Not IME. But then I've used dynamo lighting with no standlights since I was
>about 12. Things I have learned:
>Filament rear bulbs are ****. Get an LED rear lamp.

Or even two. While LED rear lights do last for months on AA batteries
and never burn out filaments, failure isn't totally impossible.
(Either of wiring to a dynamo, or of batteries you forgot were actually
still last winters, or wiring inside the light (generally the switch).)

(And I haven't found anywhere you can put a single permanently mounted
rear light that's visible when using a child seat, a trailer bike, and
panniers (at different times). That's not a problem everyone faces
though (or I do any more). And you can use several mounts for the same
battery light.)

The same is true even of modern dynamo front lights. A small LED front
light also gives you something to take off and fix punctures with.
Not that they happen often, but they can be a pain when they do.
(If you only ride on lit streets, there's less need for a backup
front light though.)

Zener diodes can prevent the old "front light contact disrupted for
a moment, back light takes the whole current and blows" problem Nick
mentioned (and there are dynamos and/or front lights with them built
in, I'm not suggesting the average user is going to add them).
Using battery rear lights with red LEDs being so efficient also avoids
the problem and simplifies the wiring, especially if your dynamo is on
or in the front wheel.

What you can't get is all these modern improvements in a cheap second
hand bike. I've bought cars for less than the price of a typical bike
fitted with a dynamo hub, lights, full chainguard, modern hub gears, etc..
Admittedly one of those cars had its lights and windscreen wipers
fail in pouring rain....

 

[Pyromancer]

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Clive George" <[email protected]> writes:
> |> "Nick Maclaren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> |> news:[email protected]...

> |> > The real point is that, to attract non-cyclists, there need to be
> |> > reliable, safe, LOW-HASSLE bicycles - or they will react against
> |> > them. And the hassle means the total hassle, not just one aspect.

> |> Aren't the bikes which fit this model in mainland Europe typically fitted
> |> with dynamos?

> Yes. But, for safe use in the UK, you need to upgrade the lighting
> to at least two lights at both front and rear, preferably with no
> common components :-(

Why? I have a dynamo driven front light that's easily as bright as
some car headlights if I travel at anything resembling speed. I have
an LED rear light that's brighter than many car lights, and it's
mounted on the rear of the mudguard, clear of the paniers, and shows
reasonably bright to the side as well as very bright to the rear.

This bike is pretty much maintenance free. I've had to tighten the odd
bolt and pump the tyres up a bit a couple of times, but that's it. I
have to do far more maintenance on my Transit van.

All this on a bike that retails for just over 500 quid. Ok, you don't
get this kind of kit on a 99 quid supermarket special, but many would
argue you don't actually get a real bike for that price either.

It really would help if more UK bike shops stocked roadsters though. I
saw a couple of cyclists pass the office when nipping to the newsagent
across the road earlier. Shorts, helmets, funny shoes, bikes with no
mudguards, hunched-over riding position - that's never going to appeal
to joe and joanna public sat relaxing in their nice comfortable Ford
Focus.

 

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Peter
Clinch <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>Anthony Jones wrote:
>> Roland Perry wrote:

>>> they are big and don't fit easily in a suit pocket.
>> Rubbish, some are no bigger than a key fob:

>FSVO "Rubbish". The really small ones, not entirely coincidentally,
>aren't considered the really well illuminating ones

>> My previous post actually referred to house keys, in which case most of this
>> doesn't apply.

>My house keys take up a lot less space than any bike lights I'd want to
>ride regularly with.

That will of course very by person. I have an almost medieval-style
seneschall's single bunch of keys, containing all the keys I need
(buildings and vehicles) in one. It's significantly heavier than the
little LED lights I used to have on my old MTB. Then again the last
time I wore a business suit was for an interview in 1998 and I've no
desire to repeat the experience. Black combats are far more practical,
for both work and cycling.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

 

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Nick
Maclaren <[email protected]> gently breathed:

>Yup. i am interested in what you say about the SON, but it is quite
>pricey, even for me!
>
>What really annoys me is when there is a choice only between cheap and
>nasty and expensive and gimmicky, or where to pay for an ordinary but
>usable device I have to pay gimmicky prices.
>
>However, not many people will pay SON prices for components.

How about Shimano? I've never noticed any difference in effort with
mine on or off - I suspect taking the heavy security chain out of the
panniers would have more effect that turning off the generator.

My experience of the old Halfords-style bottle dynamos was not
particularly good, but then that may have been more to do with cheap kit
than inherent problems with the type. But I far prefer the hub dynamo
now I've used one.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Anthony
Jones ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Nick Maclaren wrote:
>> You fanatics really are in denial, aren't you?
>
> I think us 'fanatics' could say the same about you. I've yet to see you
> present any evidence to support the majority of your claims.

I don't think he's /strictly/ a troll, since I don't believe he's
disputatious on purpose. He seems to be merely a monomaniac with poor
reading comprehension and an inability to marshal arguments.

I'd ignore him if I were you.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; this is not a .sig

 

[Douglas de Lacey]

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Pyromancer <[email protected]> writes:
> |>
> |> The question has been asked a few times now and not as far as I can see
> |> answered - if recharging lights (or using Duracells) is such a hassle,
> |> why not use a dynamo?
>
> Oh, I do. But they add effort,

As a student I had an unswitched SA hub -- ie the lamp was always "on".
I once demonstrated it to a physics student and an arts student, by
raising the handlebars slightly and spinning the wheel with my hand. The
arts student said "huh?" but the physicist said "Wow!" Rim dynamos, I
agree, do add a bitof effort.

> and have the problem that they don't
> work when stopped

No longer, as many others have said.

Douglas de Lacey