Eating Before Sleep

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by NYC XYZ, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. Robert

    Robert Guest

    "Slambram" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:26:33 -0800, "Robert" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > Thanks for definition of the pre-cancerous condition known as
    > Barrett's oesophagus, a risk factor for people who already have GERD.
    >
    > What i'd like to know is how you arrived at the conclusion that GERD
    > and esophageal cancer is caused by lying down after you eat?


    " Finally, recent data are reviewed, which suggest that the
    gastro-oesophageal junction is exposed repeatedly to concentrated acid and
    to potentially genotoxic concentrations of nitric oxide generated from
    dietary nitrate"

    Notice the term gastro esophageal junction which is higher up the GI
    normally not exposed when upright. When the person is lying down then the
    acid can go into that area.

    >
    > The AMA says GERD is caused mostly by obesity and genetic factors,
    > http://www.gerd.com/articles/recent/abstracts/2227.htm, and lying down
    > after you eat is but one of many factors which exacerbates GERD in
    > patients who already have it,


    That is true but it also exposes one to the acid which in tern can cause
    cancer.
    > http://www.gerd.com/intro/noframe/posscaus.htm
    >
    > Please cite something which backs up your correction of Proton Soup's
    > original post from ""if you have GERD" to "if you want to avoid
    > GERD" and also if you want to avoid esophageal cancer.""


    You are right I don't have any. I stand corrected. Eat before going to bed
    and live a happy life. Nothing will happen to you.
    The acid won't destroy your valve and there are no prgressive changes from
    non disease to partial obstruction of valve to a completetly compromised
    valve leading to complete reflux of acid over time. You are born with a
    damaged valve and the acid has nothing to do with it.

    >
    >
    >
    >
     


  2. Slambram

    Slambram Guest

    I sense your frustration Robert. All us young whippersnappers
    squandering our healthy GI tracts by eating before we go to sleep.
    It's tragic.
     
  3. Bob Falooley

    Bob Falooley Guest

    Per Elmsäter wrote:

    >
    >
    > A jar of cookies close to the milk is downright convenient too ;)
    > Actually it works while cutting too ;))) I just leave out the milk and go
    > for the cookies.
    >


    If you are cutting, nightly cookies should be the first thing you cut.

    --Falooley
     
  4. I lose the most weight when I time my Calories to run out right before
    going to bed. Also GERD is a problem at times. The only thing I have
    right before going to sleep is my Thyroid medication and water.

    Eric
     
  5. Slambram wrote:
    > I sense your frustration Robert. All us young whippersnappers
    > squandering our healthy GI tracts by eating before we go to sleep.
    > It's tragic.


    Not to mention us 50+ youngsters happily eating away both sitting and lying
    down. Almost in my sleep as a matter of fact.

    --
    Perre
    I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.
     
  6. Robert

    Robert Guest

    "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Slambram wrote:
    > > I sense your frustration Robert. All us young whippersnappers
    > > squandering our healthy GI tracts by eating before we go to sleep.
    > > It's tragic.

    >
    > Not to mention us 50+ youngsters happily eating away both sitting and

    lying
    > down. Almost in my sleep as a matter of fact.
    >
    > --
    > Perre
    > I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.
    >
    >

    I was in my thirties before I had symptoms related to my gut. Disease
    expression is dependent on genetics and environment over time.
    I fully appreciate both of "yous" philosophy of, "I don't have symptoms so I
    am healthy".
    Not all people develop lung cancer with smoking and most people with a high
    cholesterol and don't have heart disease can continue to eat anything they
    want.
    We don't know all the facts of disease progression or markers for disease
    progression so general statements usually apply.
    So let me restate my position to this. If you are healthy and will never
    develop the condition in question then you don't have to worry about it. For
    most of us who don't know whether or not we have the genetics for or the
    susceptibility to, then we have to assume a precautionary stance.
     
  7. Bob Falooley wrote:
    > Per Elmsäter wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> A jar of cookies close to the milk is downright convenient too ;)
    >> Actually it works while cutting too ;))) I just leave out the milk
    >> and go for the cookies.
    >>

    >
    > If you are cutting, nightly cookies should be the first thing you cut.
    >


    I know. But it works. I leave enough room for them caloriewise. Actually to
    be truthful, I don't eat them every night. Then all of a sudden I go on a
    binge. I usually see this as a sign that it's time for an eating day or two
    ;) 'bout once a week, nowadays that I'm under 10%

    --
    Perre
    I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.
     
  8. DZ

    DZ Guest

    Blair P Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
    > The only thing you might need at night is protein, but that's
    > because you need protein every few hours because it doesn't store
    > anywhere but as muscle.


    That free aminoacids can't be stored is insufficient to make this
    argument. Think of a IN->reservoir->OUT system where the size of (flow
    through) "OUT" is increasing with the flow through "IN". Then the well
    established nitrogen retention adaptation due to fasting needs to be
    taken into account. One scenario is that the net balance is higher if
    you take proteins around the time of exercise (when it's most needed)
    while taking advantage of the high nitrogen retention (through
    relative decrease in intake throughout the rest of the day).

    There is a paper by Mosoni and Mirand that found better nitrogen
    balance for 3 vs. 1 times a day intake in young people, but only under
    the deficit of protein. Moreover, higher frequency (6 times) didn't
    improve retention.

    Then they describe a study on nitrogen balance in old people - the
    balance is higher during the "pulse pattern" protein feeding. For
    example, it's higher with 3 protein-containing meals a day than it is
    with 4. Given the additional health benefits of intermittent fasting
    (http://tinyurl.com/5nlu4) I'm in favor of starting it early.

    My personal experience is that I can stay reasonably fit while eating
    once a day and I'm not even getting anywhere near the proverbial 1.2
    g/kg of protein - http://statgen.ncsu.edu/zaykin/up/mup.avi (I don't
    have any biceps shots ;)

    DZ
     
  9. 00doc

    00doc Guest

    Slambram wrote:
    > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 06:24:17 -0600,
    > "drhowarddrfinedrhoward"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> This is not the exact info you are asking for but it
    >> talks about
    >> what I mean:
    >>
    >> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=109
    >>
    >> isn't ideal from the standpoint of digestion. "
    >>

    >
    > How did you arrive at "...the food will not digest until
    > you wake in
    > the morning" from "...isn't ideal from the standpoint of
    > digestion."


    They also don't say why they think what they say.

    It is a bunch of nonsense.

    --
    00doc
     
  10. 00doc

    00doc Guest

    drhowarddrfinedrhoward wrote:
    > George Turner told us not to eat anything 2 1/2 hours
    > before we
    > worked out and would jump down your throat if you did.


    Your buddy George seems like a blooming idiot to me. If I
    were you I would get away from him.

    I agree that a full bloated stomach is nto a good thing for
    a strenuous workout. But a light snack before hand is
    helpful. The the stuff about avoiding protien for an hour
    after is just carzy. All the recent experts I have read
    recently suggest having a shake or protien bar as you walk
    out the gym door. The perioid of highest nitrogen uptake is
    for about 4 hours after your workout. if you time it right
    you can have two meals in that time - but you have to eat
    one immediately after the workoout.

    --
    00doc
     
  11. 00doc

    00doc Guest

    drhowarddrfinedrhoward wrote:
    > Just Google and you can find some stuff:
    >
    > http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=109
    >
    > "our digestive tracts are set up to work best when we are
    > standing;
    > lying down results in gravity pulling the "wrong way" to
    > help food
    > digest. Even though the practice of napping after a meal
    > is common,
    > it isn't ideal from the standpoint of digestion. "
    >
    > "Sleep is the least physically demanding part of the day,
    > and the
    > least logical target for release of food energy and
    > nutrients."
    >
    > "A small snack in the hour before bed is usually not
    > problematic if
    > you are truly hungry, but the ideal solution is to time
    > your last
    > meal so that you don' feel hungry during the 1-2 hours
    > before bed. "


    This just shopws why you should not be getting your
    information from alternative medicine/"healthfood" websites.

    The gut does not need gravity to work - other than helping
    to reduce reflux if that is an issue. if you understaood the
    anatomy you would understand that with the exception of the
    lower esophageal sphincter gravity is just not an issue.

    Sleep is not physically demanding in terms of work
    output/calories burned. But it is a metabolically active
    time and is when you do a lot of the recouperating rom your
    day. Your muscles do not get stronger during the workout -
    they get stronger from the repair when you rest. During the
    sleep the parasympathetic nervous system predominates and
    vagal tone is high. There is a reason that they call the
    parasympathetic system the "rest and digest" system (as
    opposed to adrenaline - "fight or flight").

    That is why before and possibly durng the workout you should
    be consuming light snacks that feature complex carbs but
    then after the workout and before bed you shoul dbe
    consuming protein. You need the carbs to burn during the
    workout but the protein to repair the damage.

    --
    00doc
     
  12. Slambram

    Slambram Guest

    On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:34:30 -0800, "Robert" <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    >>

    >I was in my thirties before I had symptoms related to my gut. Disease
    >expression is dependent on genetics and environment over time.
    >I fully appreciate both of "yous" philosophy of, "I don't have symptoms so I
    >am healthy".
    >Not all people develop lung cancer with smoking and most people with a high
    >cholesterol and don't have heart disease can continue to eat anything they
    >want.
    >We don't know all the facts of disease progression or markers for disease
    >progression so general statements usually apply.
    >So let me restate my position to this. If you are healthy and will never
    >develop the condition in question then you don't have to worry about it. For
    >most of us who don't know whether or not we have the genetics for or the
    >susceptibility to, then we have to assume a precautionary stance.
    >
    >

    Very well put.
     
  13. 00doc

    00doc Guest

    Blair P. Houghton wrote:
    > 00doc <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> 1) Not eating before bed means you go too long without
    >> food.
    >> To gain muscle most experts recommend eating a small meal
    >> or
    >> snack every 3-4 hours. It is bad enough that you will be
    >> going 8 hours or so overnight without eating while you
    >> sleep
    >> but if dinner is your last meal it will be more like 12
    >> hours. In that 12 hours you will end up in a catabolic
    >> state.

    >
    > It's rumored that people wake up in the middle of the
    > night to pound protein shakes.


    I've heard them too.


    > Striving for 24/7 anabolism is slightly nuts. Does it
    > matter if you reach your goal weight in 8 weeks or 8
    > weeks and two days? Only if you started training two days
    > too late and think that 60 grams will make a difference.


    I dont think it matters enough to make it worth me geting up
    at 3 am to do it. However, 60 grams every nigtht over 8
    weeks does add up and given everything I have read it would
    be hard to argue with not going 8 hours between meals.



    >> 2) Sleep is a metabolically active time. It is
    >> recouperative. You need fuel.

    >
    > If you have half a pound of fat on you, you have plenty
    > of fuel for a night's sleep. If you are eating excess
    > calories to anabolize, you have way more than plenty of
    > fuel for a night's sleep.


    By that logic it would be OK to just eat one big meal a day.
    Really if you go by that logic most of us could eat just
    once a month or two. Good luck finding anyone who advocates
    that.



    > The only thing you might need at night is protein, but
    > that's because you need protein every few hours because
    > it doesn't store anywhere but as muscle.


    I wouldn't argue with that. In fact I have been saying that
    the presleep snack should be light and high in protien -
    like a protien bar or shake.


    >> The people that say you won't digest and use the food at
    >> night are morons. Don't ever listen to a thing they say
    >> ever
    >> again.

    >
    > Wasn't that Brink?


    No idea.

    --
    00doc
     
  14. DZ <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Blair P Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> The only thing you might need at night is protein, but that's
    >> because you need protein every few hours because it doesn't store
    >> anywhere but as muscle.

    >
    >That free aminoacids can't be stored is insufficient to make this
    >argument. Think of a IN->reservoir->OUT system where the size of (flow
    >through) "OUT" is increasing with the flow through "IN". Then the well
    >established nitrogen retention adaptation due to fasting needs to be
    >taken into account. One scenario is that the net balance is higher if
    >you take proteins around the time of exercise (when it's most needed)
    >while taking advantage of the high nitrogen retention (through
    >relative decrease in intake throughout the rest of the day).


    You know what I don't get?

    I don't get why we have to store nitrogen when air is over 70% it.

    Hell, I don't get why we have to eat carbon, for the
    same reason.

    We suck O2 in through our lungs. We should get CO2 and
    N2 the same way.

    There's something just uneconomical about the way we do it.

    --Blair
    "I'll have to check Pauling for
    the energy balance..."
     
  15. 00doc <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Blair P. Houghton wrote:
    >> Striving for 24/7 anabolism is slightly nuts. Does it
    >> matter if you reach your goal weight in 8 weeks or 8
    >> weeks and two days? Only if you started training two days
    >> too late and think that 60 grams will make a difference.

    >
    >I dont think it matters enough to make it worth me geting up
    >at 3 am to do it. However, 60 grams every nigtht over 8
    >weeks does add up and given everything I have read it would
    >be hard to argue with not going 8 hours between meals.


    I didn't mean 60 grams of protein a night.

    I mean 60 grams of total anabolism in those two days
    given up in the schedule.

    Though it occurs to me I forgot to multiply by two.

    At a pound a week, you're gaining about 60 grams a day.

    Not all of it protein.

    There's a lot of waste in the system.

    --Blair
    "No comment."
     
  16. JMW

    JMW Guest

    Blair P. Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
    >DZ <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Blair P Houghton <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> The only thing you might need at night is protein, but that's
    >>> because you need protein every few hours because it doesn't store
    >>> anywhere but as muscle.

    >>
    >>That free aminoacids can't be stored is insufficient to make this
    >>argument. Think of a IN->reservoir->OUT system where the size of (flow
    >>through) "OUT" is increasing with the flow through "IN". Then the well
    >>established nitrogen retention adaptation due to fasting needs to be
    >>taken into account. One scenario is that the net balance is higher if
    >>you take proteins around the time of exercise (when it's most needed)
    >>while taking advantage of the high nitrogen retention (through
    >>relative decrease in intake throughout the rest of the day).

    >
    >You know what I don't get?
    >
    >I don't get why we have to store nitrogen when air is over 70% it.


    Nitrogen balance doesn't have anything to do with absorbing nitrogen
    from the air. It's a marker for oxidation of amino acids in protein
    turnover. When more nitrogen is lost (usually measured by excretion
    of urea) than is taken in from dietary protein, it signifies more
    deamination of amino acids; that signifies that protein breakdown is
    exceeding protein synthesis, and excess amino acids are being broken
    down, mostly in the liver.
    --

    JMW
    http://www.rustyiron.net
     
  17. My "buddy George" is a world class body builder. He's written for men's
    magazines since the 50s. Google for his name.

    He's 77 now but won a national competition when he was 73. He went on
    vacation in Paris a few months ago and visited a gym there and was
    recognized by several people there.

    George is in better shape than you are, I'm sure.
     
  18. ======================================
    That is why before and possibly durng the workout you should
    be consuming light snacks that feature complex carbs but
    then after the workout and before bed you shoul dbe
    consuming protein. You need the carbs to burn during the workout but the
    protein to repair the damage.
    ======================================
    Now that is probably the stupidest statement I have ever read anywhere.
     
  19. Slambram

    Slambram Guest

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:45:46 -0600, "drhowarddrfinedrhoward"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >======================================
    >That is why before and possibly durng the workout you should
    >be consuming light snacks that feature complex carbs but
    >then after the workout and before bed you shoul dbe
    >consuming protein. You need the carbs to burn during the workout but the
    >protein to repair the damage.
    >======================================
    >Now that is probably the stupidest statement I have ever read anywhere.
    >


    I'd call you a troll if i didn't already know how big a moron you are.
    For God's sake man, google "carbs before workout"
     
  20. >durng the workout you should
    >be consuming light snacks


    This is the part I take issue with.
     
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