Eating Meat (or not)

[Ideologue]

So the Lord God says it is OK to eat animals that have cloven hooves and chew the cud (cattle, sheep, goats, deer, etc), fish with scales and fins, some birds, and some insects. Who am I to argue with God.

Firstly, are you aware that the bible, and Christianity, is based on astrology? The black robes priests wear represents the god El (Saturn). Israel is comprised of IS (Isis, Babylonian goddess) Ra (Amen Ra, the sun god of the 18th dynasty of Egypt, as named by Akhenaten) and El (which is the god Saturn).

IS-RA-EL.

Were you aware that Christians say 'Amen' after a prayer because 'Amen' is
the sun god Amen-ra? Christianity is sun worship. The story of Christ (the word 'christ' means 'oil', as Jesus was anointed, which meant having oil poured over a kings head. The oil represents *********) is the exact same story of Isis, Horus and Osiris. The story is again repeated in the story of Buddha and Krishna, and many others going back thousand of years. The bible is called 'the greatest story ever told' because it is just that, a story. A bunch of metaphors.

www.taroscopes.com - lookup 'astrotheology' on that site and educate yourself. Oh, and in Revelations, XXII paragraph 16 (the last page of the last story of the Bible) Jesus, or is it Horus?, admits to being Lucifer. "the bright and morning star". Look up 'Lucifer' in a good dictionary; one of the definitions is 'the morning star'. Incidentally the colour of Venus (the morning star), and hence Lucifer, is green. That is why the colour green appears a lot in Islamic flags.

But regarding Christianity and meat eating, why not take a look at this link: http://www.jesusveg.com/index2.html

(Google for more: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=christian veg&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images&sa=N&tab=iw )

 

[RickF]

The stomach (gastric) acid becomes more intense in meat eaters than vegans; stronger acid is needed to try to digest meat, plants are much kinder to the body. Did you know that one major reason why old people die in their sleep is because their stomach acid burns through their stomach lining, drips onto the arteries below causing them to rupture which in turn causes the person to internally bleed to death. High acidity in the body = poor state of health.

The primary prpose of gastric acid is to protect the body from ingested bacteria. Digestion of meat or vegetable matter is not dependant on gastric acid.

Fatal internal bleeding does not result from acid dripping on arteries. Death from a perforated ulcer is more likely due to peritonitis - inflammation of the abdominal cavety due to the presence of bile and pancreatic enzymes outside of the bowel. Fatal gastric bleeds usually are a result of ruptured veins that were distended due to cirrhosis of the liver, which is usually, but not always, related to chronic alcohol consumption. Despite centuries of myths and old wives tales linking diet to gastric or duodenal ulcers, with the exception of a few compounds (primarily caffeine and alcohol - neither of which are found in meat) there is no consistant relationship between diet and ulcers. Some foods will increase the risk in some individuals, but there is no generalization that holds across the population.

The pH of the body in general has nothing to due with gastric acidity. The body has a very complex buffering system to maintain pH at 7.4. The lungs and kidneys are most important for maintaining pH. The amount of acid in the stomach has very little infuence on pH; however, some foods, primarily cranberries and citric fruits, will kick the kidneys into overdrive to eliminate excess acid. This results in a very low urinary pH, but the pH of the blood remains at 7.4. Only with asphixiation, chronic lung disease or chronic renal failure does the pH stray from 7.4. Diet has no bearing on this.

Most people who die in their sleep die from a cardiac arrhythmia. This is due to an electrical disturbance in the heart, and is not necessarily related to underlying cardiovascular disease. Many people who die from arrhythmia have healthy coronary arteries.

While it is true that there is a small contribution of dietary saturated fats to the elevation of cholesterol and development of coronary artery disease, diet contributes a very small portion of the total cholesterol. Genetics is the biggest contributer to a bad lipid profile. The lack of exercise is the next most important contributer. Diet is a distant third. A low fat diet will actually reduce the levels of HDL cholesterol - the good cholesterol - more than it does LDL cholesterol - the bad cholesterol. Recent studies have shown that substituting red meat for carbohydrates (on an equal calorie basis) leads to a better lipid profile than does eating a low fat diet.

The bottom line is that how much you eat is more important than what you eat, providing you get all of the essential amino acids, vitamines, minerals, and essential fatty acids. A healthy diet can be vegetarian or include meat. The only slight advantage for the vegetarian diet is that it is more difficult to ingest too many calories. Carbohydrate and protein are approximately 4 calories per gram, alcohol is 7 calories per gram, and fat is 9 calories per gram. Meat is mostly protein and fat. While there is protein, carbohydrate and fat in vegetables, much of the mass in vegetables is indigestable cellulose, so it is possible, and indeed necessary, to eat a lot more to get the same number of calories. That fact, alone, is the only thing in favor of a vegetarian diet.

 

[Ideologue]

Excess protein and animal protein does cause an increase in body acidity. Or perhaps I should rephrase that: If the body did not react to the acid-forming animal matter entering it, then the body’s acidity level would increase. And one key way the body deals with acidity is to neutralize it by adding alkaline. The most readily available source of alkaline in the body is the calcium, as found primarily in the bones. Thus years of eating acid-forming food can and does lead to leaching of calcium from the bones, subsequent weakening of the bones and bone disease.

A meat eater’s stomach does contain a more acidic liquid than that of the long-term vegan. The extra acidity is a vital part in how the body attempts to handle meat. In certain vulnerable people this extra acidity can burn its way through a weakened stomach wall. I do not doubt there are many other causes for this happening, and also for death occurring whilst in slumber. But consuming meat increases the risk of poor health conditions developing, many health conditions.

I did not even mention the cancer risk of meat! That is certainly a side effect of consuming animal foods. Milk, not mentioning all of the pesticides, medications from the Cow, pus, etc. found within it, naturally contains Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). This promotes growth and is in the milk because nature intended milk for infants and calves, not adults, only very young juveniles. The IGF-1 helps the Calf to grow. It also helps cancerous tumours grow in humans.

Yes, meat and milk, etc., contains no fibre. This contributes greatly to bowel cancer rates. No long-term vegan has ever developed Crones disease, another point worth raising. And plants are devoid of cholesterol!

This is an interesting page on regulating the ph of the body and how an alkaline body is a healthy body. Cancer cannot exist in an alkaline body:

http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm

 

[Lonnie Utah]

The ‘opposition’ says that often.

See, this is the difference between you and I. I don't see you as the "opposition". I see you as somebody that has made different choices than me. After the first line, I didn't read the rest of your post.

L

 

[Ideologue]

See, this is the difference between you and I. I don't see you as the "opposition". I see you as somebody that has made different choices than me. After the first line, I didn't read the rest of your post.

L

But there is an opposition, and a vociferous opposition at that. It is this opposition to which I refer.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

But there is an opposition, and a vociferous opposition at that. It is this opposition to which I refer.

Sorry you see it that way. I don't. I'll refer you back to reply #56....

Remember I used to be a vegetarian too. You don't win converts by being "preachy", which at this point you are being. Simply tell folks there are advantages to one diet over the other and those that are interested will approach you. If they don't, then you don't really have much of a chance of converting them anyway. As I said, I can live the the justifications I have made about my diet, and the consequences that relate to it, as I'm sure you have about your's. Don't judge or condem people who've come to different conclusions than you. They might not have the same ethical/moral base/background that you have, so naturally they might come to alternative conslusions.

L

 

[MountainPro]

started again (long story)

i got a couple of spare hours....shoot..

 

[Pendejo]

i got a couple of spare hours....shoot..

It won't take that long, Mountain. For my 50th birthday I was diagnosed with CLL (chronic lymphocytic leukemia), considered incurable. I was so anemic, among other things, that the doctors were shocked that I was walking around (in fact, I had been riding my bike up until about two weeks prior). They wanted me to go to the hospital immediately to get a transfusion, because I had so little oxygen in my blood that I was in danger of heart attack or stroke. I resisted doing this for a week, but at that point I figured that extreme circumstances call for extreme measures and I started eating red meat again.

Anyway, with chemo and some good luck, they estimated I had 3-5 years left. It's been ten years now, I'm in perfect health (though they insist if they looked hard enough they'd be able to find the disease lurking in the marrow), and the past three years I've won the silver and bronze medals in the state finals for 5K and 10K TTs. Not quite Lance, but at least in the pelaton.

This really is an object lesson for anyone whom a doctor gives disturbing news. Doctors are like weathermen - they are often very wrong.

 

[Ideologue]

Sorry you see it that way. I don't. I'll refer you back to reply #56....

Remember I used to be a vegetarian too. You don't win converts by being "preachy", which at this point you are being. Simply tell folks there are advantages to one diet over the other and those that are interested will approach you. If they don't, then you don't really have much of a chance of converting them anyway. As I said, I can live the the justifications I have made about my diet, and the consequences that relate to it, as I'm sure you have about your's.

And people never learn when they perceive the presentation of facts to them as being a sermon and then as a result ignore the presenter of the information and become unreceptive.

Why are you attacking me anyway? So what if you have issues as to my presentation of key facts; tackle them, argue them. Go do your homework and check them out – see if I am right or wrong. But when people concentrate more on the messenger and the way the message is put forth, rather than what the message actually is and the implications of the message, then there is definitely something wrong in Belgium, as they say.

Don't judge or condem people who've come to different conclusions than you. They might not have the same ethical/moral base/background that you have, so naturally they might come to alternative conslusions.

L

Am I condemning anyone? I thought I was trying to inform (perhaps I should be more careful about writing such things, as maybe you will judge me arrogant, elitist, megalomoniacal, egotistical, snobbish, etc.)

Have most people arrived at conclusions? That would imply that they undertook some sort of investigation into the subject. Whether you have or not is not the point. This is not about you personally so stop taking it that way. Go into any meat section in a supermarket or a fast filth outlet and ask a random selection of people key questions about nutrition, what is in what they are eating, how it was produced and what research they have done. Most of them are just buying that food or eating that food because it is there to be bought and eaten. Simple as that. Their mothers fed them it; their mother’s mother fed it to their mother and so on. Most people do not question at any significant level their dietary practices. That is a fact. Most people are uninformed about what they eat and issues surrounding food in general. They trust their government, but little do they know that their government does not give a sh!t about them. Do you think most Diet Coke drinkers are aware that Diet Coke contains a deadly chemical called Aspartame, a chemical that breaks down into wood alcohol and formaldehyde as soon as they ingest it? Aspartame causes cancer and a massive list of other diseases. They would never even imagine such a deadly toxin is legally allowed into their beverages. Do fast filth eaters realize that what they crave is not the regenerated gore that such places serve but instead the MSG (monosodium glutamate) that the food is laced with? This highly addictive and lethal substance is what makes them come back for more. Poisons are often addictive, not least heroin and alcohol. I even heard that African Bushmen have experienced addictions with snake venom!

There was a survey carried out to see if inner city children knew what and where their meat came from. They just answered ‘the supermarket’. They had no idea it was once a living, breathing sentient animal just like they are. They could not see past that cellophane-wrapped package in the freezer section. That is the world we live in. A world that cares more for televised spectator sports than fundamental and cardinal issues. How many people realize that 9/11 was a government sponsored, false-flag fake terrorism psychological black operation carried out by secret intelligence agencies and falsely blamed on Muslims in order to scare the people of the USA into submission and as a pretext for police state legislation and foreign domination? Growing numbers, but not a lot. And even when presented with the damning, irrefutable evidence to support it, they rationalize and live in denial, as they are unable to accept the implications of such a revelation. They are also unable to accept that they have been duped and that their paradigm is manufactured and false.

 

[Ned Goudy]

There was a survey carried out to see if inner city children knew what and where their meat came from. They just answered ‘the supermarket’. They had no idea it was once a living, breathing sentient animal just like they are. They could not see past that cellophane-wrapped package in the freezer section. That is the world we live in. A world that cares more for televised spectator sports than fundamental and cardinal issues. How many people realize that 9/11 was a government sponsored, false-flag fake terrorism psychological black operation carried out by secret intelligence agencies and falsely blamed on Muslims in order to scare the people of the USA into submission and as a pretext for police state legislation and foreign domination? Growing numbers, but not a lot. And even when presented with the damning, irrefutable evidence to support it, they rationalize and live in denial, as they are unable to accept the implications of such a revelation. They are also unable to accept that they have been duped and that their paradigm is manufactured and false.

Tell It! You are preach'n to
the choir man! You might
even convince me to drink
water with caffeine powder
rather than coke. (I gotsta
have my caffeine buzz, man.)

Global Warming is Real Babies!

 

[RickF]

How many people realize that 9/11 was a government sponsored, false-flag fake terrorism psychological black operation carried out by secret intelligence agencies and falsely blamed on Muslims in order to scare the people of the USA into submission and as a pretext for police state legislation and foreign domination? Growing numbers, but not a lot. And even when presented with the damning, irrefutable evidence to support it, they rationalize and live in denial, as they are unable to accept the implications of such a revelation. They are also unable to accept that they have been duped and that their paradigm is manufactured and false.

If your screen name and previous postings were not proof enough, I now understand.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

 

[Ideologue]

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Ha! Heed your own advice, moron. Everything I write checks out. Nice usage of that old cliché, by the way!

 

[Ideologue]

On the Calcium and Protein issue:

The choice of protein source can make a great deal of difference. Overall, most plant protein sources (fruits, vegetables, legumes and many nuts and seeds) have a positive or neutral effect on calcium balance. A person trying to increase protein intake using meat or fish, for example, will lose about 25 milligrams of calcium from their body for every 100 grams eaten. In contrast, a 100-gram portion of beans (by dry weight) has an approximately neutral effect on calcium balance while providing the same amount of protein.

That was written by Dr. Stephen Walsh. Source: http://www.satyamag.com/mar02/walsh.html

Just google ‘Stephen Walsh’ for enlightenment on this subject.

 

[Pendejo]

If your screen name and previous postings were not proof enough, I now understand.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Idealogue, I do have definitive proof that 9/11 was not made in the good ol' USA: it went much too well.

 

[Axius]

Excess protein and animal protein does cause an increase in body acidity. Or perhaps I should rephrase that: If the body did not react to the acid-forming animal matter entering it, then the body’s acidity level would increase. And one key way the body deals with acidity is to neutralize it by adding alkaline. The most readily available source of alkaline in the body is the calcium, as found primarily in the bones. Thus years of eating acid-forming food can and does lead to leaching of calcium from the bones, subsequent weakening of the bones and bone disease.

Poorly done studies in the 1940s showed meat to cause calcium loss. Modern studies using better testing methods like the following show no calcium loss from meat.​

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12672913&query_hl=28&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15483071&query_hl=35&itool=pubmed_docsum

I did not even mention the cancer risk of meat! That is certainly a side effect of consuming animal foods. Milk, not mentioning all of the pesticides, medications from the Cow, pus, etc. found within it, naturally contains Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). This promotes growth and is in the milk because nature intended milk for infants and calves, not adults, only very young juveniles. The IGF-1 helps the Calf to grow. It also helps cancerous tumours grow in humans.

The following study showed soy increased IGF-1 twice as much as milk.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12221217&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

No long-term vegan has ever developed Crones disease

Are you making this up as you go along? Show me a study showing long term vegans don't develop Crohn's disease.

 

[Ideologue]

Idealogue, I do have definitive proof that 9/11 was not made in the good ol' USA: it went much too well.

It only went well for them because most people never question what their beloved leaders tell them, or the controlled lamestream media for that matter.

But, as a crime, 9/11 did not go very well at all; the amount of evidence that exists to absolutely prove the government set the whole thing up is staggering. There are hundreds of ‘red flags’, hundreds of smoking guns. Take a look at the FBI file for Osama Bin Laden (CIA code name: Tim Osman). The FBI does not even want him in connection with 9/11. Give them a call, they will tell you! There is no evidence whatsoever linking Bin laden to 9/11. Osama even condemned the attack and outright denied any involvement in it almost immediately after the events. If you think those grainy videos of what is purported to be him admitting to involvement (including the one with the fat Bin Laden) are genuine, then think again.

Dr. Stephen Jones of BYU, the same Dr. Jones who coined the term ‘cold fusion’ agrees. He is a physics professor who has concrete, irrefutable evidence that destroys the official version (also known as 'the omission commission report'). Recently he obtained samples of debris from the towers (which was amazing considering most of the evidence was straight away, and illegally, shipped to China!). He analyzed these samples and discovered thermate residue on them (his tests have been peer reviewed). Thermate is a specific, and patented, form of thermite. This is an explosive/incendiary material used by demolition experts to cut through steel columns. Those towers were brought down by controlled demolition. There is video that even shows squibs exploding up to 20 stories below the collapse zone. And have you ever timed how long the buildings took to collapse? They fell at close to the maximum speed gravity would allow them to fall, despite the upper sections having to break nearly 100 floors on their way down! Common sense, and the laws of physics, would certainly suggest that each floor would slow down the collapse slightly as it was crushed. But that did not happen. The buildings fell neatly onto their own footprints. If a bowling ball was dropped from the same height, and with only air between it and the ground below, it would not have taken any longer to complete its decent.

The flight manifests (passenger lists) contained the names of no Arabs. 7 of the 19 alleged highjackers are still alive! Another one died the year previously! What the hell caused building #7 to fall?

The Arabs were patsies. They thought they were taking part in an exercise, nothing more. There were many exercises happening that day. Exercises and drills for the exact same scenarios were in progress at the exact same time the actual events, which were being drilled for, occurred. This is for two main reasons: 1) so anyone caught in the act can claim to be a part of the exercise (plausible deniability), and 2) the exercises caused much confusion so the actual plan was permitted to succeed. During the 7/7 London bombings (also a government black-op) exercises for the exact same thing that occurred were in progress at the exact same time in which they occurred, namely bombs going off at specific stations. Again, this allows people (agents) caught in the act the excuse of claiming they were merely partaking in the exercises. The Arabs (patsies) in London, again, thought they were merely hired by a government agency to take part in a counter-terrorism exercise. That was a very bad choice they made. Little did they know that they were being used and the drill was live. And concerning the London bombings: since when does a bomb in a backpack inside a train carriage cause a hole in the carriage floor with the metal sticking upwards? The bomb was already in place, attached to the underside of the carriage.

I could be typing forever on this; there really is that much evidence. But, again, don’t take my word for it go and look at the evidence for yourselves. Go read what government scientists have written on it, former Blair cabinet minister M. Meacher, a former German government minister, hundreds of engineers and academics, former Regan administration people including the scientist who coined the phrase ‘Reganomics’ and the scientist who worked on the Star Wars project when it was still top secret under presidents Ford and Carter.

http://st911.org/

www.infowars.com

www.prisonplanet.com

http://www.reopen911.org/

Go to Google Video, or a BitTorrent site, and download some of the numerous documentaries on this issue. Documentaries such as: TerrorStorm, Martial Law 9-11: Rise of the Police State, Loose Change 2, etc… etc.

And also go take a look at Operation Northwoods. This is a declassified planned operation devised in the early 1960’s that proposed almost the exact same events carried out on 9/11. The plan at the time was to blame Cuba! But Kennedy refused to OK the plan, thus it never happened. It was Kennedy’s refusal to permit Operation Northwoods combined with his intention to disband the CIA, his desire to pull out of Vietnam and also his desire to end the Federal Reserve that ultimately promoted the shadow government to dispose of him.

Definitely time for a paradigm shift. Everything above checks out. Ignorance is excusable, but arguing against something for which there exists such an immense amount of supporting evidence is nothing less than shear stupidity. Anyone who argues against the fact that the government/secret intelligence agencies are responsible for 9/11 is no less than a low-grade moron. I can say that with absolute confidence, there really is that much evidence. If you think Muslims carried out 9/11 then I have a bridge to sell you on the Moon.

 

[Ideologue]

Poorly done studies in the 1940s showed meat to cause calcium loss. Modern studies using better testing methods like the following show no calcium loss from meat.​

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12672913&query_hl=28&itool=pubmed_docsum


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15483071&query_hl=35&itool=pubmed_docsum

So some studies say high protein, in particular animal protein, causes calcium loss and other studies assert otherwise. Well I wonder which of these studies are financed by the meat industry? The Beef Cattleman’s Association has already been caught in the act, as well as the dairy board, of financing studies to reach predetermined conclusions.

I have a copy of Dr. Stephen Walsh’s book ‘Plant Based Nutrition and Health’. The studies he refers to were mostly conducted in the late 1990’s and 2000’s. These studies seem to support the dodgy 1940’s studies to which you pay reference!

Below is an extract from one of them and links to articles with references:

The countries in the lowest tertile of HFI (hip fracture incidence ) (n = 11) had the lowest animal protein consumption, and invariably, vegetable protein (VP) consumption exceeded the country's corresponding intake of animal protein (AP)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=11034231&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

Worldwide, rates of hip fractures (and kidney stones) increase with increasing animal protein consumption (including dairy products). For example, people from the USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Australia, and New Zealand have the highest rates of osteoporosis. 15,16 The lowest rates are among people who eat the fewest animal-derived foods (these people are also on lower calcium diets) – like the people from rural Asia and rural Africa.15,16
Osteoporosis is caused by several controllable factors; however, the most important one is the foods we choose – especially the amount of animal protein and the foods high in acid.17-19 The high acid foods are meat, poultry, fish, seafood, and hard cheeses – parmesan cheese is the most acidic of all foods commonly consumed.20 This acid must be neutralized by the body.21 Carbonate, citrate and sodium are alkaline materials released from the bones to neutralize the acids. Fruits and vegetables are alkaline and as a result a diet high in these plant foods will neutralize acid and preserve bones. The acidic condition of the body caused by the Western diet also raises cortisol (steroid) levels. 22 Elevated cortisol causes severe chronic bone loss – just like giving steroid medication for arthritis causes severe osteoporosis.

Animal foods, full of protein waste, promote poor health and early death by accelerating the aging process and increasing the risk of diseases, like heart disease, diabetes, and cancer, that in their own right, cause premature death. From now on, think of the excess protein you consume as garbage that must be disposed of in order to avoid toxic waste accumulation. Obviously, the best action is to avoid the excess in the first place and this is most easily accomplished by choosing a diet based on starches, vegetables, and fruits. Within a few days of changing to a healthy diet, most of the waste will be gone and the damaged tissues will begin healing.
Unfortunately, you will find little support for such an obvious, inexpensive, and scientifically-supported approach – especially when the common masses of people worldwide are ignorant of the truth – most are gobbling down as much protein as they can stuff in their mouths – and the food industry is supporting this behavior by advertising their products as “high-protein” and "Atkins-approved" – as if this was somehow good for the body. This paradox is age-old, and because it is ruled by emotions, rather than clear thinking, a change in mind-set in your lifetime, should not be expected.

http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/health-proteinoverload.html

Diets rich in meat protein lead to more uric acid in the urine, and a general increase in urine acidity. because of the acidity, the uric acid does not easily dissolve and can form into kidney stones.

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/protein.php

CONCLUSIONS: Elderly women with a high dietary ratio of animal to vegetable protein intake have more rapid femoral neck bone loss and a greater risk of hip fracture than do those with a low ratio. This suggests that an increase in vegetable protein intake and a decrease in animal protein intake may decrease bone loss and the risk of hip fracture.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...uids=11124760&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum

And on diabetes:

A 1999 study conducted by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and Georgetown University looked at the health benefits of a low-fat, unrefined, vegan diet (excluding all animal products) in people with type 2 diabetes.3 Portions of vegetables, grains, and legumes were unlimited. The vegan diet group was compared with a group following a diet based on the American Diabetes Association (ADA) guidelines (higher in fat and cholesterol and lower in fiber). The results of this three-month study were astounding. The vegan group lowered their fasting blood sugars 59 percent more than the group following the ADA diet. Many discontinued their medications, another benefit not enjoyed by the ADA group. The vegan group lost an average of 16 pounds, compared with only about 8 pounds in the ADA group. The vegan group also had more substantial decreases in their cholesterol levels, compared to the ADA group. Although this was a small study, it illustrates that a plant-based diet can dramatically improve the health of people with diabetes.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/prevmed/diabetes.html

The following study showed soy increased IGF-1 twice as much as milk.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12221217&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

Well Soy is certainly a contentious issue. But the fact that Soy might contain IGF-1 does little to mitigate the fact that Cows milk is very high in this deadly hormone. So if people want to avoid IGF-1 they had better avoid Cow milk and to be safe Soy too! No big deal, Soy is not the only plant food available!

Soy has its supporters and attackers, on many fronts. Far eastern people seem to thrive on Soy, but then it is said they know how to prepare it properly, and Western commerce cuts costs and does a poor job in removing the toxicity from Soy. Some say soy helps to prevent many cancers; there certainly seems to be some truth to this. Ultimately I consider a small amount of Soy to be beneficial, provided it is organic and non-GM.

Are you making this up as you go along? Show me a study showing long term vegans don't develop Crohn's disease.

I am not making anything up here. If you want actual scientific papers then follow the references given at the base of the following link (or contact the researchers named therein):

Michael Greger, MD has done a great deal of research on Crohn’s revealing that many, if not most, cases may be caused by a species of bacteria that is both hard to detect and hard to kill with typical antibiotic therapy. The bacteria reside in some cows and are likely transferred to humans through both milk and meat.

Unfortunately, some vegans have been diagnosed with Crohn’s. There may be several explanations for this:

1. The bacteria have a long incubation period and these vegans may have been infected before becoming vegan.
2. These vegans inadvertently ate some animal products.
3. The bacteria may have routes other than animal products through which to infect humans.
4. Crohn’s disease may have more than one cause.
5. Crohn’s disease is often misdiagnosed.

http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/gotmilk.html

It is Dr. Shafran's belief that most of his Crohn's patients contracted their illness after consuming milk or dairy products. Shafran rejects the USDA notion that pasteurization destroys that bacterium responsible for Crohn's. In fact, we discussed the latest evidence which indicates how easily these bacteria (mycobacterium paratuberculosis) can be incubated in labs directly from pasteurized milk sold in supermarkets.

http://www.all-creatures.org/health/crohns2005.html

Johne's disease is a condition affecting dairy cows and - evidence suggests - some human consumers of milk. It is caused by a bacterium that interferes with digestion, lowers milk production, and eventually kills infected cows. Research has now linked the disease to the human intestinal disorder Crohn's disease, a type of inflammation in the digestive tract.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/vegan/health01.htm

The most esteemed pediatrician of all time, Dr. Benjamin Spock, advised that children be raised vegan, with zero exposure to dairy products for a variety of reasons.

http://www.mad-cow.org/00/paraTB.html

 

[ric_stern/RST]

It only went well for them because most people never question what their beloved leaders tell them, or the controlled lamestream media for that matter.

Knobs like you give vegans and vegetarians a bad name. BANNED. Thank you and good bye

 

[Felt_Rider]

Knobs like you give vegans and vegetarians a bad name. BANNED. Thank you and good bye

I appreciate the discussion of nutrition in general and even though my diet contains lean meat sources I can appreciate the vegan / vegetarian diet. I have even considered trying a few times, but found it hard to stick with it.

I felt a few days ago that this was steering away from a civil discussion on nutrition to a personal agenda.

Thank you

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I appreciate the discussion of nutrition in general and even though my diet contains lean meat sources I can appreciate the vegan / vegetarian diet. I have even considered trying a few times, but found it hard to stick with it.

I felt a few days ago that this was steering away from a civil discussion on nutrition to a personal agenda.

Thank you

To clarify, there's nothing wrong with people have different ideas, theories, and beliefs etc. but this thread had steered way off into something else. i'm sure there's plenty of conspiracy theory forums on the internet, but i don't believe that a cycling forum needs to be one of them!

and should anyone think that i have something against vegetarians/vegans, then you're wrong, as i'm one!

Ric