aa9t8 said:
I guess some people here weren't born with a placenta... or breast fed either.. lol.
Eating Meat (or not)
- Thread starter Pendejo
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I guess some people here weren't born with a placenta... or breast fed either.. lol.
I'm a TOTAL vaginatarian, from the Planet of Vagaria, next to Uranus in the Lesbos Galaxy, and its single but very elusive moon Clitor 9Pendejo said:
Ideologue said:
So i just would like clarify a few points...
-you're vegan
-you've never eaten meat
-you have no personal basis for comparison
just curious... See... as a person who eats the flesh of cute little animals that probably made squeeking noises when they were killed I can say that I've eaten a lot of non-meat products, and I really have to vouch for a nice blend of both meat and veggies. Nothing goes better with my 12oz blue steak than some bean sprouts.
And as to the 'suffering' of some of these animals... I've been told that they use a very big gun at the slaughter houses... so I don't think they suffer all that much really..
Lord Vader said:And as to the 'suffering' of some of these animals... I've been told that they use a very big gun at the slaughter houses... so I don't think they suffer all that much really..
Your mother lied to you.
This video (Slaughterhouse - The Task of Blood, BBC) is the reality of animal slaughter in the Western 'civilized' world:
http://mirror.roland-kaufmann.ch/Slaughterhouse - the Task of Blood (BBC).avi (527mb)
Or watch any one of the documentaries and films available as direct downloads through this site (multi-language):
http://www.roland-kaufmann.ch/animalrightsvideos/
I've had the misfortune to read some articles in meat processing journals about slaughterhouse efficiency, and the animals typically sense something is not going really well just ahead of them and they try to balk at the entrance chute. In many cases, they're literally scared shitless.Lord Vader said:So i just would like clarify a few points...
-you're vegan
-you've never eaten meat
-you have no personal basis for comparison
just curious... See... as a person who eats the flesh of cute little animals that probably made squeeking noises when they were killed I can say that I've eaten a lot of non-meat products, and I really have to vouch for a nice blend of both meat and veggies. Nothing goes better with my 12oz blue steak than some bean sprouts.
And as to the 'suffering' of some of these animals... I've been told that they use a very big gun at the slaughter houses... so I don't think they suffer all that much really..
But most of the cruelty takes place in the raising of the animals, especially chickens, calves for veal, etc. If you're not well aware of those prevailing conditions, please do some research.
I'm against hunting even when done for food, because the animal is often only injured and then escapes to suffer.
Dairy and Eggs can almost take the place of meat (as nutrients go). Food like Cottage Cheese and Yogart are healthy for anyone. My advice for anyone who wants to eat healthy is to eat alot of fish. Fish is just about the healthiest meat (and it doesn't seem so much like flesh). Also, if you eat those things, you won't have to worry as much about if you are getting all the right nutrients.
Personaly, the "animal reason" for being a vegetarian seems a little off, but if it's for health or taste/texture reasons, go for it.
Personaly, the "animal reason" for being a vegetarian seems a little off, but if it's for health or taste/texture reasons, go for it.
I'm with you on that last point. people preach about the cruelty to animals etc to feed us but never actually take their convictions to the real world as far as making life better for animals in general, or for people in living conditions far worse than some chicken pens.blindsaint said:
Simply not eating meat won't make a difference. If people are really that concerned about the conditions of animals how about volunteering for a humane society or even better, red cross.
Apathy in diet won't change anything.
I also noticed that some deftly avoided my points about having no personal basis for comparison...
blindsaint said:
There are plenty better options to take than dairy and eggs when it comes to replacing meat. Some interesting facts are to be found on milk and eggs at this site: www.notmilk.com
Fish might be the healthiest meat, but the best out of a bad choice is still a bad choice. Fish are high in mercury and other toxins, they contain zero fibre and they are being fished out of existence (the ocean ecosystems have sustained high damage from the fishing industry).
A much better option is the superfood that is Hemp seed. Hemp contains Omega 3 and 6 oils (essential fatty acids) in the perfect ratio that these nutrients need to be consumed in for optimum absorbance. Hemp also contains high quality fibre and is a complete source of protein (it contains all the essential amino acids). There are many other ‘alternatives’ to eating Fish such as Flax (Linn) seed, (another good source of omega 3, and another good source of protein, fibre, etc.), nuts and many others. Every single nutrient and bioactive component with nutritional function is easily found in plant (flora) sources.
Lord Vader said:
Somehow I doubt very much that there are people living in worse conditions than most farmed Chickens, in particular battery Chickens who are not even able to sit down let alone turn around, as their cages are too small.
Lord Vader said:
Do you mean the same Red Cross that kept most of the money for itself that was donated to the 9/11 victims, tsunami relief and the Katrina victims?
If you have any questions/doubts about this read "Fast food Nation". It's a great read.Pendejo said:
There is quite the mercury contamination problem with fish. Some species are better than others, so do your research before you buy.blindsaint said:
On a personal note, I think folks just need to be informed when they make dietary choices. I used to be a vegetarian for ecological reasons and health, but gave it up many years ago. I try to minimize the amount of meat I eat, particularly "red meats". For example, I used meatless bacon tonight on my spinach salad. But I also had a boiled egg too. I made a lowfat ranch dressing with eggless mayo, but with nonfat milk. (the rest of the ingredients were organic spinach, home grown tomatoes, organic carrots, non organic cucumber, and non organic kidney beans.
I've got no dog in the animal rights "fight". I don't think we should "torture" animals, but I also think it's natural to "exploit" them for our own uses. I'll let you decide what those terms mean. That a topic for another thread...
Humans have "always" eaten some meat in their diet. Our dentition and the dentition of our ancestors provides clues to this. But as I said before, most of the food we ate was from plant products. I think the best option is to think about "whole" foods and to shy away from processed items as much as possible. (One of the worst is high fructose corn syrup. Thats a killer.) Do I do this? Sometimes. I used to be a sucker for coke a cola. I vowed to "cut back" as my new years resolution. I've had 2 in 2006 when I used to have at least that per day. I've "replaced" it with other beverages that while they still contain lots of simple sugars also have more natural ingredients.
I guess it comes down to doing what is right in ones own mind. If that is being straight up vegan, cool. If it's being a meatitarian, I guess that's cool too. Who am I to judge somebody elses choices? I can provide folks with information and let them make up their own mind. (Most of the time) I can live with the choice I make.
Lonnie Utah said:
The movie is coming out very soon. It is directed by the same director of ‘A Scanner Darkly’ which is out now.
Fast Food nation: http://imdb.com/title/tt0460792/
A Scanner Darkly: http://imdb.com/title/tt0405296/
If people really want to become informed about this issue they should have a look at the pdf book I uploaded:
http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=2671104
Lonnie Utah said:
Actually a comparative study of the teeth of humans, herbivores, omnivores and carnivores indicates that our teeth are more akin to the herbivore than any other group. Our incisors are shovel shaped, not sharp and pointy like the carnivore and omnivore. There are many other anatomical and physiological evidence that shows humans to be natural (physiological) herbivores, as the chart I posted on page 2 of this thread shows:
Lonnie Utah said:
Well you can live with it, but for how long and how well? How long will your death drag on for? Will it be quick and painless, or will it follow a period of prolonged suffering (old age alone does not bring poor health. Many years of less than healthy practices do. Two examples are: 1) Heart patients: years of consuming cholesterol and saturated fat from animal foods are responsible for cardiovascular health problems in an immense number of people. 2) Know someone with osteoporosis, or people with bad hips? Animal protein acidifies the body (acidic bodies are more prone to disease and cancers, alkaline bodies are the key to good health). The acidic blood leaches calcium from the bones, which over time weakens them). From a viewpoint of compassion: You might be able to live with it, but can the animals?
(By the way, I am not picking on you but making a point)
Nothing better sounding to me after a hard 50 or 60 mile ride than having a nice thick beef steak that was seared on the grill.
Man.....that's good eatin'
Man.....that's good eatin'
You know I think you are, at least a little bit. I've know lots of vegetaians and vegans in my life, and lots of them have a superiority complex about it. they provide all sorts of tenious facts that justify their position and make folks that have a different point of view feel bad. If you look at your posts in this thread, they fit this pattern.Ideologue said:
I'm just thankful that we are in a position where we are fortunate enough that we can actucally make choices about our diet. There are many people in this world that cannot. Do you think you'd still be a vegan if you were a malnurished child in sub-saharan africa and I came by with a sac of big macs? I know that's a bit extreeme, but it makes the point.
As for your charts, I think they are a bit mis-leading. They all speak in absolutes, but the truth is our dentetion falls between some of the descritptions you list. Anthropologists that are a lot smarted than I have studied these things and this is where the early human falls. And their evidence isn't only from or dentition, it's from the middions or trash dumps outside of human and prehuman settlements and camps. Aditionally, Why do we have the enzymes in our systems to digest meat if we didn't have those food sources in our pre-history? So you can argue your way out of the fact that our ancestors ate meat. Maybe not as much as we (society) does today, but it was a part of their diet.
You know I'm proud of you for making the decisions you have regarding your diet. I know from experience, it's a very hard thing to do and stick with. But don't chastise people for not comming to the same conclusions in life that you have.
Leviticus Chapter 11
11:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
11:2 Say to the children of Israel: These are the animals which you are to eat of all the living things of the earth.
11:3 Whatsoever hath the hoof divided, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, you shall eat.
11:4 But whatsoever cheweth indeed the cud, and hath a hoof, but divideth it not, as the camel, and others: that you shall not eat, but shall reckon it among the unclean.
11:5 The cherogrillus which cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof, is unclean.
11:6 The hare also: for that too cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof.
11:7 And the swine, which, though it divideth the hoof, cheweth not the cud.
11:8 The flesh of these you shall not eat, nor shall you touch their carcasses, because they are unclean to you.
11:9 These are the things that breed in the waters, and which it is lawful to eat. All that hath fins, and scales, as well in the sea, as in the rivers, and the pools, you shall eat.
11:10 But whatsoever hath not fins and scales, of those things that move and live in the waters, shall be an abomination to you,
11:11 And detestable. Their flesh you shall not eat: and their carcasses you shall avoid.
11:12 All that have not fins and scales, in the waters, shall be unclean.
11:13 Of birds these are they which you must not eat, and which are to be avoided by you: The eagle, and the griffon, and the osprey.
11:14 And the kite, and the vulture, according to their kind.
11:15 And all that is of the raven kind, according to their likeness.
11:16 The ostrich, and the owl, and the larus, and the hawk according to its kind.
11:17 The screech owl, and the cormorant, and the ibis.
11:18 And the swan, and the bittern, and the porphyrion.
11:19 The heron, and the charadroin according to its kind, the houp also, and the bat.
11:20 Of things that fly, whatsoever goeth upon four feet, shall be abominable to you.
11:21 But whatsoever walketh upon four feet, but hath the legs behind longer, wherewith it hoppeth upon the earth,
11:22 That you shall eat: as the bruchus in its kind, the attacus, and ophimachus, and the locust, every, one according to their kind.
11:23 But of flying things whatsoever hath four feet only, shall be an abomination to you.
So the Lord God says it is OK to eat animals that have cloven hooves and chew the cud (cattle, sheep, goats, deer, etc), fish with scales and fins, some birds, and some insects. Who am I to argue with God.
11:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
11:2 Say to the children of Israel: These are the animals which you are to eat of all the living things of the earth.
11:3 Whatsoever hath the hoof divided, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, you shall eat.
11:4 But whatsoever cheweth indeed the cud, and hath a hoof, but divideth it not, as the camel, and others: that you shall not eat, but shall reckon it among the unclean.
11:5 The cherogrillus which cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof, is unclean.
11:6 The hare also: for that too cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof.
11:7 And the swine, which, though it divideth the hoof, cheweth not the cud.
11:8 The flesh of these you shall not eat, nor shall you touch their carcasses, because they are unclean to you.
11:9 These are the things that breed in the waters, and which it is lawful to eat. All that hath fins, and scales, as well in the sea, as in the rivers, and the pools, you shall eat.
11:10 But whatsoever hath not fins and scales, of those things that move and live in the waters, shall be an abomination to you,
11:11 And detestable. Their flesh you shall not eat: and their carcasses you shall avoid.
11:12 All that have not fins and scales, in the waters, shall be unclean.
11:13 Of birds these are they which you must not eat, and which are to be avoided by you: The eagle, and the griffon, and the osprey.
11:14 And the kite, and the vulture, according to their kind.
11:15 And all that is of the raven kind, according to their likeness.
11:16 The ostrich, and the owl, and the larus, and the hawk according to its kind.
11:17 The screech owl, and the cormorant, and the ibis.
11:18 And the swan, and the bittern, and the porphyrion.
11:19 The heron, and the charadroin according to its kind, the houp also, and the bat.
11:20 Of things that fly, whatsoever goeth upon four feet, shall be abominable to you.
11:21 But whatsoever walketh upon four feet, but hath the legs behind longer, wherewith it hoppeth upon the earth,
11:22 That you shall eat: as the bruchus in its kind, the attacus, and ophimachus, and the locust, every, one according to their kind.
11:23 But of flying things whatsoever hath four feet only, shall be an abomination to you.
So the Lord God says it is OK to eat animals that have cloven hooves and chew the cud (cattle, sheep, goats, deer, etc), fish with scales and fins, some birds, and some insects. Who am I to argue with God.
Lonnie Utah said:
The ‘opposition’ says that often. And of course they would say it, because they are unable to refute the presented facts and they are also unable to accept that billions of animals die unnecessarily every year for the meat trade, a trade that they support and sustain.
A few unequivocals: Farm animals do suffer, they are sentient and intelligent, they are aware of their fate at the slaughterhouse, and they do feel immense fear. All nutrients humans need are to be found in flora sources. The healthiest diet is plant-based. The founder of the UK Vegan Society died last year at the age of 95 following 60 years as a vegan, and many years prior (if not all since his birth) as a vegetarian. Many champion athletes are vegan, not least Olympic champion Carl Lewis. The plant-based diet is much less demanding on the environment. More water is used to produce the same amount of animal protein than plant-based protein. More land is used to produce meat than plants. I could go on and on, but the links I posted earlier in this thread contain many more (although I doubt very many will study them, opting instead to argue vehemently from an ignorance stand point).
Lonnie Utah said:
Do you realize how the African children come to be in such a poor state in the first place? Africa is a rich country; its soil is full of nutrients and perfect for growing crops. But due to a calculated effort by the World Bank and the Globalists it has been manipulated into a state of impossible debt. So instead of growing crops to feed itself, it grows cash crops for the Western world and other crops to feed the cattle and other farm animals for the Western meat trade. It is forced to in order to raise money to pay to the World Bank.
Lonnie Utah said:
That chart and the article I linked to are the work of a PhD. I challenge anyone to satisfactorily refute the information they present. Just because the information goes against common thinking and threatens the prevailing paradigm, does not mean that it is invalid.
Lonnie Utah said:
Indeed you are correct, the human digestive system is able to derive nourishment from meat, but at what cost? The stomach (gastric) acid becomes more intense in meat eaters than vegans; stronger acid is needed to try to digest meat, plants are much kinder to the body. Did you know that one major reason why old people die in their sleep is because their stomach acid burns through their stomach lining, drips onto the arteries below causing them to rupture which in turn causes the person to internally bleed to death. High acidity in the body = poor state of health.
You are somewhat misleading in your writing of enzymes to cope with meat. They are the same enzymes used to digest plant nourishment. For example protease is the enzyme for digesting protein. Did you know that cats fed on a vegan diet have been found to be healthier and exhibit more vitality than they did on a meat diet? Now cats are true carnivores because they need preformed vitamin A (humans are able to convert Beta carotene into Vitamin A, but are unable to detoxify pure Vitamin A) and a few other nutrients also. But what the Cats are unable to produce themselves can be produced in a manufacturing process and added to their plant food as a supplement, and they thrive on it.
Meat takes an extremely long time to digest in the unsuitable human digestive tract. And because of the length of the plant-suited human intestines, the human digestive system extracts a lot of toxins from the meat. Carnivorous intestines are much shorter to allow the carnivore to pass the meat quickly to prevent absorbing toxins from it. The higher up the food chain one goes, the higher the concentration of toxins. Cows are herbivores but farmers have fed them meat, and continue to feed other herbivorous animals meat. It is through such feeding practices that mad cow disease is believed to have developed. Are you aware that lions, after killing their prey, tend to eat the dead animals' intestines first as the intestines contain partially digested plants that are much healthier for the Lion.
And what exactly does it mean, archeologists digging up old bones? Because they did it (human ancestors eating meat), you must do it? Well, I know that the cavemen had a highly advanced knowledge in the science of nutrition especially compared to the pitiful state of today’s research, so I guess that is one good reason why they must be copied!
Many are credulous to certain perceptions of ‘nature’ and live their lives subservient to the resultant dogmatism. Forget what mother told you, open your minds take a look at the facts and take note. Because if you value your health and your home planet you need to do what is best to support these things.
Lonnie Utah said:
If you look back on this thread, the abuse and ignorant comments do not come from what I posted. I would welcome healthy debate, if the opposition feels it has something valid to offer rather than lifelong erroneous and unsubstantiated beliefs. Lets argue facts, and whether or not it can be proven that the plant-based diet is the healthiest one or not, what is certain is that millions around the world live full and healthy lives on such diets. They do not live shorter lives and they are not any less healthy. So is it not wise and is it not compassionate to cease killing animals, to stop causing them to suffer when a perfectly good alternative exists and is proven to be perfectly healthy?
You know, what some have said on this issue before is that vegans should ‘leave meat eaters alone’ (as if writing facts somehow constitutes an attack)! They say that it is ‘the vegans choice not to eat meat, so let the meat eaters choose to eat meat if they want’. Well what about the animals? What choice do they have? In suffering, the animals are our equals. They are intelligent and they feel pain, fear and other emotions. Ask any decent animal behavior expert if you doubt that, or go watch some animals for yourselves. Why not download some of the documentaries from the link I posted earlier? It sickens me when a person chooses what to know and what not to know as it suits them and their prevailing, and heavily defended, belief system. That should sicken anyone with any sense of decency. The Germans chose not to question what they government was doing in the early 1930’s, and look what happened. Some people choose not to se a doctor when they find a growth, only to die of cancer months later. The facts are grim, but they will always be grim so long as they are ignored and the people choose not to acknowledge them.
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