Echoes of Magilla

[Clot Felter]

I found Magilla's comments interesting last week. Here is what Merckx
had to say along the lines of being criticized for wanting to win every
race he entered(Cycle Sport):

"A race has to have a winner. The whole point of a race is to find a
winner. How can you take part without trying to win? How can you be
criticized for doing what is the object of your chosen work? I chose to
race, so I chose to win. A doctor works to cure, surely a sportsman
works to win, doesn't he?"

Keeping in mind Merckx's rare talent and gifts, I am sure the other
riders "in his shadow" would not want to hear Magilla's comments about
settling for 1st loser. But, they were probably more prepared to lose
because they were not raised in the American environment of "everybody
gets a prize for showing up". Not that the Euro folks are stone cold, I
just think they understand sport better.

However, the antithesis of this is racing because you like competition
and winning is an occasional bonus to that. I do not think Merckx raced
for the competition, but to crush the competition. Others simply like
duking it out for 7th place because they like the thrill of duking it
out.

In a recent letter from Belgium, Geoff Proctor wrote about Page, et
al., "Our guys rode solidly. Jonathan really poured on the coals to
overcome two punctures and get back inside the top 20." I think Trebon
was 15th. Probably Euro cross is metaphorically like Merckx and the
Americans are in its shadow. Should we be satisfied that they are in
the top 20, or ****** that they are not winning?

Clearly in the video, they are behind in terms of ability compared to
the top Euro riders. Not making excuses, but remember when we were
little kids on the sandlot imitating our favorite American pro football
teams on Sunday (for me it was the Steelers), many of the Euro kids are
learning about Merckx, riding cobbles/hills, and how to win bike races.


Even though I like to see Page and Trebon riding in the races, I would
rather focus my attention on Nys and Groenendaal.

 

[Erin]

Clot Felter wrote:
> I found Magilla's comments interesting last week. Here is what Merckx
> had to say along the lines of being criticized for wanting to win
every
> race he entered(Cycle Sport):
>
> "A race has to have a winner. The whole point of a race is to find a
> winner. How can you take part without trying to win? How can you be
> criticized for doing what is the object of your chosen work? I chose
to
> race, so I chose to win. A doctor works to cure, surely a sportsman
> works to win, doesn't he?"
>
> Keeping in mind Merckx's rare talent and gifts, I am sure the other
> riders "in his shadow" would not want to hear Magilla's comments
about
> settling for 1st loser. But, they were probably more prepared to lose
> because they were not raised in the American environment of
"everybody
> gets a prize for showing up". Not that the Euro folks are stone cold,
I
> just think they understand sport better.
>
> However, the antithesis of this is racing because you like
competition
> and winning is an occasional bonus to that. I do not think Merckx
raced
> for the competition, but to crush the competition. Others simply like
> duking it out for 7th place because they like the thrill of duking it
> out.
>
> In a recent letter from Belgium, Geoff Proctor wrote about Page, et
> al., "Our guys rode solidly. Jonathan really poured on the coals to
> overcome two punctures and get back inside the top 20." I think
Trebon
> was 15th. Probably Euro cross is metaphorically like Merckx and the
> Americans are in its shadow. Should we be satisfied that they are in
> the top 20, or ****** that they are not winning?
>
> Clearly in the video, they are behind in terms of ability compared to
> the top Euro riders. Not making excuses, but remember when we were
> little kids on the sandlot imitating our favorite American pro
football
> teams on Sunday (for me it was the Steelers), many of the Euro kids
are
> learning about Merckx, riding cobbles/hills, and how to win bike
races.
>
>
> Even though I like to see Page and Trebon riding in the races, I
would
> rather focus my attention on Nys and Groenendaal.


Let me tell ya, I got second at the stinkin' Olympics in '96, third in
'92, and continue to pay to this day for that "first loser's award."
Whether American or European, it is about winning and unfortunately I
will forever be disappointed that I was unable to climb that final
step!

Six times I stood on the podium at an Olympics or World Championships
and watched someone else pull that "pretty striped jersey" on; it
sucked then and it sucks now!

Well, I'm kinda kidding on the "sucks" part (I worked my butt off for
those medals and may just have been beaten by better guys on the day or
better riders period!), but I do appreciate Mr. Felter's point that
"pouring on the coals ... to get back into the top 20" is not
particularly impressive.

At the end of the day, it's about winning and no one really cares
about, or remembers, 20th...

Just as I had to do to "create success," whether funding my way to
train with the Australians for months on end or living and training in
a darkened, asbestos-leaking velodrome in Austria, the 'crossers need
to do what they need to do; no excuses. Find a way.

If the coaching, funding, organization is non-existent where you are,
go and find it. Someone, somewhere is getting it, why can't you?

Live in Europe, invest in yourself, make the connections, and work your
ass off. It's a tough, nasty sport that requires extreme commitment.
End of story.

 

[Richard Sachs]

great post, erin!
GREAT!!
e-RICHIE






"Erin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clot Felter wrote:
>> I found Magilla's comments interesting last week. Here is what Merckx
>> had to say along the lines of being criticized for wanting to win
> every
>> race he entered(Cycle Sport):
>>
>> "A race has to have a winner. The whole point of a race is to find a
>> winner. How can you take part without trying to win? How can you be
>> criticized for doing what is the object of your chosen work? I chose
> to
>> race, so I chose to win. A doctor works to cure, surely a sportsman
>> works to win, doesn't he?"
>>
>> Keeping in mind Merckx's rare talent and gifts, I am sure the other
>> riders "in his shadow" would not want to hear Magilla's comments
> about
>> settling for 1st loser. But, they were probably more prepared to lose
>> because they were not raised in the American environment of
> "everybody
>> gets a prize for showing up". Not that the Euro folks are stone cold,
> I
>> just think they understand sport better.
>>
>> However, the antithesis of this is racing because you like
> competition
>> and winning is an occasional bonus to that. I do not think Merckx
> raced
>> for the competition, but to crush the competition. Others simply like
>> duking it out for 7th place because they like the thrill of duking it
>> out.
>>
>> In a recent letter from Belgium, Geoff Proctor wrote about Page, et
>> al., "Our guys rode solidly. Jonathan really poured on the coals to
>> overcome two punctures and get back inside the top 20." I think
> Trebon
>> was 15th. Probably Euro cross is metaphorically like Merckx and the
>> Americans are in its shadow. Should we be satisfied that they are in
>> the top 20, or ****** that they are not winning?
>>
>> Clearly in the video, they are behind in terms of ability compared to
>> the top Euro riders. Not making excuses, but remember when we were
>> little kids on the sandlot imitating our favorite American pro
> football
>> teams on Sunday (for me it was the Steelers), many of the Euro kids
> are
>> learning about Merckx, riding cobbles/hills, and how to win bike
> races.
>>
>>
>> Even though I like to see Page and Trebon riding in the races, I
> would
>> rather focus my attention on Nys and Groenendaal.
>
>
> Let me tell ya, I got second at the stinkin' Olympics in '96, third in
> '92, and continue to pay to this day for that "first loser's award."
> Whether American or European, it is about winning and unfortunately I
> will forever be disappointed that I was unable to climb that final
> step!
>
> Six times I stood on the podium at an Olympics or World Championships
> and watched someone else pull that "pretty striped jersey" on; it
> sucked then and it sucks now!
>
> Well, I'm kinda kidding on the "sucks" part (I worked my butt off for
> those medals and may just have been beaten by better guys on the day or
> better riders period!), but I do appreciate Mr. Felter's point that
> "pouring on the coals ... to get back into the top 20" is not
> particularly impressive.
>
> At the end of the day, it's about winning and no one really cares
> about, or remembers, 20th...
>
> Just as I had to do to "create success," whether funding my way to
> train with the Australians for months on end or living and training in
> a darkened, asbestos-leaking velodrome in Austria, the 'crossers need
> to do what they need to do; no excuses. Find a way.
>
> If the coaching, funding, organization is non-existent where you are,
> go and find it. Someone, somewhere is getting it, why can't you?
>
> Live in Europe, invest in yourself, make the connections, and work your
> ass off. It's a tough, nasty sport that requires extreme commitment.
> End of story.
>

 

[CowPunk]

I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I've always wondered?

Just what were you thinking when you talked trash to that guys family
after he beat you for the gold? Did you just have a brain fart or
what?

Did you ever appologize to his family?




Erin wrote:
snip........
> Live in Europe, invest in yourself, make the connections, and work
your
> ass off. It's a tough, nasty sport that requires extreme commitment.
> End of story.

 

[[email protected]]

CowPunk,

You're about two years late on that one. If you really want to know,
look at the "show options" link next to my name, hit "find messages by
this author" and find the "Clarification of the Sky Christopherson
Incident."

I addressed this back in 2002 and it's the last I'll say of it.
Regards,

Erin

 

[Steven Bornfeld]

Erin wrote:
> Brian,
>
> You're absolutely right in stating that others don't agree with how I
> feel. Heck, I don't always agree with the philosophy that "winning is
> everything"; you should have seen the fallout from '96... that'll put a
> bad taste in your mouth about expectations.
>
> To tell you the truth, I was far more interested in the pursuit of
> excellence and the soul-purifying "daily grind of training" than the
> final "winning" outcome. It's the dedication to training and an
> understanding that one is "giving all that one has" in pursuit of
> something special that makes sport wonderful.
>
> Winning's nice; but it's the long and winding path to get there that's
> truly most rewarding.
>
> My original point was really more a poke at the folks that espouse the
> "winner take all" mentality and underappreciate the drive/commitment
> all top competitors have to succeed, thus a certain level of respect
> for all competitive athletes is fair and justified.
>
> However, no matter how much I loved "participating," I was involved in
> sport to win. To enjoy it along the way and receive the accolades and
> support of those happy with my participation was incredible, but the
> real objective was to win.
>
> If Page et al. want to succeed, then they need to step out of their
> comfort zones and out of ear-shot of those expounding their greatness,
> and find a way to do it better. From what I know of Jonathan, he's a
> fighter and committed to doing it right. But maybe he can do it
> better... I don't know, I'm not around him. Only he can ask himself
> that question.
>
> If it's the responsibility of the federation or the trade team to get
> results, then hire people that are interested in winning, not placing.
>
> Again, no excuses, just get it done.
>
> Now, back to reality, as I really should do some work today.
> Erin Hartwell
>

Great post--Happy New Year!

Steve

 

[cp]

CowPunk wrote:
> I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I've always wondered?
>
> Just what were you thinking when you talked trash to that guys family
> after he beat you for the gold? Did you just have a brain fart or
> what?
>
> Did you ever appologize to his family?
>
>

Cowpuke You have to be the STUPIDEST person in RBR. Please leave.
Please.

Crit PRO

>
>
> Erin wrote:
> snip........
> > Live in Europe, invest in yourself, make the connections, and work
> your
> > ass off. It's a tough, nasty sport that requires extreme
commitment.
> > End of story.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Erin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Let me tell ya, I got second at the stinkin' Olympics in '96, third in
> '92, and continue to pay to this day for that "first loser's award."
> Whether American or European, it is about winning and unfortunately I
> will forever be disappointed that I was unable to climb that final
> step!

I gotta tell you Erin that there were guys out there that worked a lot
harder than you did and just didn't have the genetic tools to begin with.
They couldn't even make the games. What do you suppose it would have meant
to them to finish in the top 20?

Bicycling is a strange business, no matter what your size and genetic makeup
you can generally find a place in some sort of racing if you look hard
enough. And the will to win and hard work can get you a long way. But when
it comes to the top rung of performance you guys with the right VO2-max and
the right natural hematocrit and the right muscle composition and the right
bone density are just that much better no matter how hard another person
wants to win. And if one of those guys can finish in the front group it's
going to be like your standing on that top step.

You did so good for so long, just think - what if YOU'RE one of those guys
who got where you did from hard work and perseverance and simply never had
the genetics to beat most of the guys you did beat?

I think you ought to display those medals as proudly as you would if they
were the gold.

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I gotta tell you Erin that there were guys out there that worked a lot
> harder than you did and just didn't have the genetic tools to begin with.

Tom,

I know this specific statement was not the overall point you were trying to
make, but there were probably few, very very few people who have worked
harder in cycling than Erin did in the peak 5 or 6 years of his career.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Erin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty wrote:
> Brian,
>
> You're absolutely right in stating that others don't agree with how I
> feel. Heck, I don't always agree with the philosophy that "winning is
> everything"; you should have seen the fallout from '96... that'll put a
> bad taste in your mouth about expectations.
>
> To tell you the truth, I was far more interested in the pursuit of
> excellence and the soul-purifying "daily grind of training" than the
> final "winning" outcome. It's the dedication to training and an
> understanding that one is "giving all that one has" in pursuit of
> something special that makes sport wonderful.
>
> Winning's nice; but it's the long and winding path to get there that's
> truly most rewarding.
>
> My original point was really more a poke at the folks that espouse the
> "winner take all" mentality and underappreciate the drive/commitment
> all top competitors have to succeed, thus a certain level of respect
> for all competitive athletes is fair and justified.
>
> However, no matter how much I loved "participating," I was involved in
> sport to win. To enjoy it along the way and receive the accolades and
> support of those happy with my participation was incredible, but the
> real objective was to win.

I understand and agree with you. There is no question that losing hurts,
especially if the winner is in some sense suspect. Frankly, I have far more
respect for riders like you and Mike Creed who clearly do give their all but
don't always win or even make the podium---far more respect that I have for
riders like those on the old East German Machine, Pantani, VDB or even
Musseuw now that the truth of their perfomances is trickling out.

Anyone who would give grief to you, or any other rider, who has tried their
best but fallen "short" should not be in the sport if they are an
administrator or coach. Many of us have complained about how the sport has
been managed by USAC and its predessors for years. Bad programs and perhaps
unrealistic goals are serious problems that show disrespect to those who try
their best.
>
> If Page et al. want to succeed, then they need to step out of their
> comfort zones and out of ear-shot of those expounding their greatness,
> and find a way to do it better. From what I know of Jonathan, he's a
> fighter and committed to doing it right. But maybe he can do it
> better... I don't know, I'm not around him. Only he can ask himself
> that question.

It takes a strong person to get things done by themselves. Some can do
it---Mike Neel, George Mount, Jock Boyer, Sean Kelly come to mind. But not
every raw talent has the strength that calls for. That's where good,
realistic development programs come in. That's where the focus should be
and hasn't been for too long. Can the culture at USAC change? Don't hold
your breath. FWIW, thanks for giving it your best.

Happy New Year All!

 

[Bob Schwartz]

B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:

> But, you're far from alone in your view:

> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.-- Vince Lombardi

This is a tangent, but Lombardi never said that. Just Like Al
Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.

"Winning is not everything ?but making the effort to win is."
-- Vince Lombardi

A significantly different quote than the one attributed to
him.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

 

[CowPunk]

Shouldn't be be doing winter training for a tricycle race or something?


cp wrote:
> CowPunk wrote:
> > I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I've always wondered?
> >
> > Just what were you thinking when you talked trash to that guys
family
> > after he beat you for the gold? Did you just have a brain fart or
> > what?
> >
> > Did you ever appologize to his family?
> >
> >
>
> Cowpuke You have to be the STUPIDEST person in RBR. Please leave.
> Please.
>
> Crit PRO
>
> >
> >
> > Erin wrote:
> > snip........
> > > Live in Europe, invest in yourself, make the connections, and
work
> > your
> > > ass off. It's a tough, nasty sport that requires extreme
> commitment.
> > > End of story.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> But, you're far from alone in your view:
>
>> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.-- Vince Lombardi
>
> This is a tangent, but Lombardi never said that. Just Like Al
> Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
>
> "Winning is not everything ?but making the effort to win is."
> -- Vince Lombardi
>
> A significantly different quote than the one attributed to
> him.

Indeed it is, and a pleasing difference, IMO. But........how do we know
that you're correct? Citation?

 

[Andy Coggan]

Damn! Just when I've decided that r.b.r. has gone *completely* to hell and
I've made a New Year's resolution to stop wasting my time reading it, along
comes a thread like this one. Great work, guys (especially you, Erv) - keep
it up!

Andy Coggan

 

[peed]

Clot Felter wrote:
> I found Magilla's comments interesting last week. Here is what Merckx
> had to say along the lines of being criticized for wanting to win
every
> race he entered(Cycle Sport):
>
> "A race has to have a winner. The whole point of a race is to find a
> winner. How can you take part without trying to win?

Try coming in dead last... Sometimes, that's not as easy as it would
seem.

 

[Bob Schwartz]

B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> But, you're far from alone in your view:
>>
>>> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.-- Vince Lombardi
>>
>> This is a tangent, but Lombardi never said that. Just Like Al
>> Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
>>
>> "Winning is not everything ?but making the effort to win is."
>> -- Vince Lombardi
>>
>> A significantly different quote than the one attributed to
>> him.

> Indeed it is, and a pleasing difference, IMO. But........how do we know
> that you're correct? Citation?

If you Google on 'Lombardi never said winning' you get hits
for many permutations of the above quote. So who knows what
he said. But it's pretty well established from his family
that he never spoke the quote attributed to him.

Here's a reference to an interview with his daughter:
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Goss_040903,00.html

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

 

[B. Lafferty]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> B. Lafferty <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But, you're far from alone in your view:
>>>
>>>> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.-- Vince Lombardi
>>>
>>> This is a tangent, but Lombardi never said that. Just Like Al
>>> Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
>>>
>>> "Winning is not everything ?but making the effort to win is."
>>> -- Vince Lombardi
>>>
>>> A significantly different quote than the one attributed to
>>> him.
>
>> Indeed it is, and a pleasing difference, IMO. But........how do we know
>> that you're correct? Citation?
>
> If you Google on 'Lombardi never said winning' you get hits
> for many permutations of the above quote. So who knows what
> he said. But it's pretty well established from his family
> that he never spoke the quote attributed to him.
>
> Here's a reference to an interview with his daughter:
> http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Goss_040903,00.html

Very interesting article. Thanks for the link. I especially liked two of
his quotes .

People do not lack strength, they lack will.character is will in action.

The objective is to win -- fairly, squarely, decently, by the rules, but to
win.

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Very interesting article. Thanks for the link. I especially liked two of
> his quotes .
>
> People do not lack strength, they lack will.character is will in action.
>

Bobby Knight said something similar:

"Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win."

 

[Tim Mullin]

"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:sFDBd.12648$c%.2957@okepread05:

> Bobby Knight said something similar:
>
> "Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win."

He had a way with words. http://tinyurl.com/3jpr7

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:tNlBd.12227$c%.11996@okepread05...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I gotta tell you Erin that there were guys out there that worked a lot
>> harder than you did and just didn't have the genetic tools to begin with.
>
> Tom,
>
> I know this specific statement was not the overall point you were trying
> to make, but there were probably few, very very few people who have worked
> harder in cycling than Erin did in the peak 5 or 6 years of his career.

Well, maybe that didn't come out right. But there WERE a lot of people that
worked hard, no doubt much harder than Erin, but just didn't have the tools
to come anywhere near Erin or Marty and their like. You just never see them
because like Fast Freddy, they never go anywhere.