Editorial about cyclist killed in Oregon



B

Bob

Guest
On Jun 14, 8:25 pm, "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his ride was
> struck and killed. Related editorial here:http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editor...
>
> --
> Warm Regards,
>
> Claire Peterskyhttp://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
> See the books I've set free at:http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky


My condolences to the deceased's friends and family. The editorialist
was exactly correct.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
J

Jorg Lueke

Guest
D

Dane Buson

Guest
Jorg Lueke <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his ride was
>> struck and killed. Related editorial here:
>> http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/118177892673050.xml&coll=7
>>

> It's crazy that there's zero criminal liability for someone that
> reckless.


It's what happens when almost everyone drives and don't really think
about the amount of damage they can do. I doubt most people really
carry a mental model of how much damage they can do.

And all the people on the jury and in the justice system say to
themselves "That could have been me." It's much easier for them to put
themselves in the drivers seat (pun intended) than empathize with the
victim. [1] This results in weak laws, weak prosecutions, and weak
sentences.

I'd like to see confiscation of automobiles for people driving on a
suspended / revoked license. You borrowed the car from your friend?
Well, I guess your friend is out of luck. Maybe next time your friend
will show better judgement when lending out their car.

[1] Cyclist are all filthy second class citizens anyway. Get a job!
Get a car!

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"I was provided with additional input that was radically
different from the truth. I assisted in furthering that
version."
-Colonel Oliver North, from his Iran-Contra testimony
 
R

Roger Zoul

Guest
Dane Buson wrote:
:: Jorg Lueke <[email protected]> wrote:
::: "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:
:::: A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his
:::: ride was struck and killed. Related editorial here:
::::
http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/118177892673050.xml&coll=7
::::
::: It's crazy that there's zero criminal liability for someone that
::: reckless.
::
:: It's what happens when almost everyone drives and don't really think
:: about the amount of damage they can do. I doubt most people really
:: carry a mental model of how much damage they can do.
::
:: And all the people on the jury and in the justice system say to
:: themselves "That could have been me." It's much easier for them to
:: put themselves in the drivers seat (pun intended) than empathize
:: with the victim. [1] This results in weak laws, weak prosecutions,
:: and weak sentences.

So, it would seem then that you make the point that when cyclists are
victims in incidents that involve automobiles, that cyclist aren't
represented fairly if some on the juriors and others in the justice system
aren't cyclists too. In many situations both the victim and the accused
*are* fairly represented, so good laws, presecutions, and sentences can be
made or passed.

Seems as if both victim and accused who have rights to "peer"
considerations.
 
B

bhugh

Guest
On Jun 14, 8:25 pm, "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his ride was
> struck and killed. Related editorial here:http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editor...


I somehow went astray & found this editorial--it's interesting in its
own way:

---
There's a way to measure bike safety beyond guessing, however. Watch
for women. As the city's bike planners have found, there's a direct
correlation between the safety of a particular area and the number of
women cyclists. The city can use this information as it maps out a new
master plan for biking, reduces the danger spots and strives to spin
its "gold" rating from the League of American Bicyclists into
platinum.

"Women cyclists," the city's transportation office asserts, "are the
indicators of a healthy bikeway network."
---

http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1182207324154190.xml&coll=7
 
D

Dane Buson

Guest
Roger Zoul <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dane Buson wrote:
> :: Jorg Lueke <[email protected]> wrote:
> ::::
> ::: It's crazy that there's zero criminal liability for someone that
> ::: reckless.
> ::
> :: It's what happens when almost everyone drives and don't really think
> :: about the amount of damage they can do. I doubt most people really
> :: carry a mental model of how much damage they can do.
> ::
> :: And all the people on the jury and in the justice system say to
> :: themselves "That could have been me." It's much easier for them to
> :: put themselves in the drivers seat (pun intended) than empathize
> :: with the victim. [1] This results in weak laws, weak prosecutions,
> :: and weak sentences.
>
> So, it would seem then that you make the point that when cyclists are
> victims in incidents that involve automobiles, that cyclist aren't
> represented fairly if some on the juriors and others in the justice system
> aren't cyclists too. In many situations both the victim and the accused
> *are* fairly represented, so good laws, presecutions, and sentences can be
> made or passed.


I'm actually going a bit beyond talking about individuals. I'm saying
that the car as supreme road user is pretty much a societal mindset.
Part of that is that almost everyone is a driver, and most of the media
and laws only reinforce the attitude.

> Seems as if both victim and accused who have rights to "peer"
> considerations.


Actually in most cases, it would require the law enforcement and
especially the prosecutor to view the crimes more seriously. Then the
question is, even if a prosecutor charged them with vehicular homicide
or even criminal negligence, could they get a conviction?

Without the equivalent of a campaign against criminal driving such as
MADD's campaign against drunk driving, I don't think any of these things
will happen.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
You first parents of the human race... who ruined yourself for an apple,
what might you have done for a truffled turkey?
-- Brillat-savarin, "Physiologie du Gout"
 
G

gds

Guest
On Jun 20, 3:53 pm, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Without the equivalent of a campaign against criminal driving such as

> MADD's campaign against drunk driving, I don't think any of these things
> will happen.
>
> --


I agree! Put aside the motorist vs. cyclist issue. If one reads the
paper or watches thenews about vehicular accidents involving a death
or very serious injury there appears to be a constellation of
behaviors involved in almost every case:
-excessive speed or otherwisr reckless driving
-alcohol or drugs
-driving on a suspended license

The victims are innocent regardless of if they were cyclists,
pedestrians, or other drivers. But the penalties simply do not fit the
crime. So, huge numbers of unlicensed and uninsured motorists are
driving on our streets.
 
R

Roger Zoul

Guest
gds wrote:
:: On Jun 20, 3:53 pm, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:
:::: Without the equivalent of a campaign against criminal driving such
:::: as
::: MADD's campaign against drunk driving, I don't think any of these
::: things will happen.
:::
::: --
::
:: I agree! Put aside the motorist vs. cyclist issue. If one reads the
:: paper or watches thenews about vehicular accidents involving a death
:: or very serious injury there appears to be a constellation of
:: behaviors involved in almost every case:
:: -excessive speed or otherwisr reckless driving
:: -alcohol or drugs
:: -driving on a suspended license
::
:: The victims are innocent regardless of if they were cyclists,
:: pedestrians, or other drivers. But the penalties simply do not fit
:: the crime. So, huge numbers of unlicensed and uninsured motorists are
:: driving on our streets.

Well, as cyclists, we should do our part. Form "CADD - Cyclists Against
Dangerous Drivers".

I nominate you two as Pres and V. Pres.
 
Cyclists will continue to suffer the stigma of 2nd class citizens
until the majority of POB's who ride on the wrong side, disobey
signals etc begin to follow the rules. The majority of children in my
community are careless wrong way riders and it is doubtful many will
go on to become serious cyclists once they get a car. Since they were
never cyclists they will never appreciate us. Even when a motorist
kills another motorist there is a slap on the wrist in many states.


On Jun 21, 4:12 pm, "Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote:
> gds wrote:
>
> :: On Jun 20, 3:53 pm, Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:
> :::: Without the equivalent of a campaign against criminal driving such
> :::: as
> ::: MADD's campaign against drunk driving, I don't think any of these
> ::: things will happen.
> :::
> ::: --
> ::
> :: I agree! Put aside the motorist vs. cyclist issue. If one reads the
> :: paper or watches thenews about vehicular accidents involving a death
> :: or very serious injury there appears to be a constellation of
> :: behaviors involved in almost every case:
> :: -excessive speed or otherwisr reckless driving
> :: -alcohol or drugs
> :: -driving on a suspended license
> ::
> :: The victims are innocent regardless of if they were cyclists,
> :: pedestrians, or other drivers. But the penalties simply do not fit
> :: the crime. So, huge numbers of unlicensed and uninsured motorists are
> :: driving on our streets.
>
> Well, as cyclists, we should do our part. Form "CADD - Cyclists Against
> Dangerous Drivers".
>
> I nominate you two as Pres and V. Pres.
 
D

Dave Vandervies

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:

>Without the equivalent of a campaign against criminal driving such as
>MADD's campaign against drunk driving, I don't think any of these things
>will happen.


I've been entertaining the idea that anybody who is involved in a road
incident causing injury or death, and is found to have contributed to that
incident through negligence, gross incompetence, or violation of the law,
should be charged with the same criminal offense(s) that they'd've been
charged with if they had deliberately and directly caused that injury
or death.

The reasoning here is that when placing yourself in a situation where you
have the potential to be a danger to other people, there's a reasonable
expectation that you know you're doing so, and that brings with it the
obligation to prevent that potential from being realized. If you fail
to take reasonable actions to fulfill that obligation, it shouldn't be
any different from any of the ways in which a person can actively be a
danger to others.


Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that lawmakers and prosecutors are
going to be convinced of this any time soon.


dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email protected]
Whatever you do, don't tell the people in comp.lang.c++ because they'll flame
you for being on-topic. Fortunately, you're in no danger of that here.
--Eric Sosman in comp.lang.c
 
D

Dane Buson

Guest
bhugh <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 14, 8:25 pm, "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:


>> A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his ride was
>> struck and killed. Related editorial here:http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editor...

>
> I somehow went astray & found this editorial--it's interesting in its
> own way:
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1182207324154190.xml&coll=7
> ---
> There's a way to measure bike safety beyond guessing, however. Watch
> for women. As the city's bike planners have found, there's a direct
> correlation between the safety of a particular area and the number of
> women cyclists. The city can use this information as it maps out a new
> master plan for biking, reduces the danger spots and strives to spin
> its "gold" rating from the League of American Bicyclists into
> platinum.
>
> "Women cyclists," the city's transportation office asserts, "are the
> indicators of a healthy bikeway network."


I was just noticing a day or so before I read this that I was seeing
more female bike commuters than I'd ever seen before. I wonder if it
represents a sort of normality tipping point?

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
The world is your exercise-book, the pages on which you do your sums.
It is not reality, although you can express reality there if you wish.
You are also free to write nonsense, or lies, or to tear the pages.
-- Messiah's Handbook : Reminders for the Advanced Soul
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Dane Buson <[email protected]> wrote:

> bhugh <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jun 14, 8:25 pm, "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> A friend of mine was leading a club ride when a bicyclist on his ride was
> >> struck and killed. Related editorial
> >> here:http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editor.
> >> ..

> >
> > I somehow went astray & found this editorial--it's interesting in its
> > own way:
> >
> > http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/118
> > 2207324154190.xml&coll=7
> > ---
> > There's a way to measure bike safety beyond guessing, however. Watch
> > for women. As the city's bike planners have found, there's a direct
> > correlation between the safety of a particular area and the number of
> > women cyclists. The city can use this information as it maps out a new
> > master plan for biking, reduces the danger spots and strives to spin
> > its "gold" rating from the League of American Bicyclists into
> > platinum.
> >
> > "Women cyclists," the city's transportation office asserts, "are the
> > indicators of a healthy bikeway network."

>
> I was just noticing a day or so before I read this that I was seeing
> more female bike commuters than I'd ever seen before. I wonder if it
> represents a sort of normality tipping point?


I think it represents the value of $x/gal gas (whatever it is locally;
here it's $1/l in local currency and local fluid measures).

But yeah, there's a lot of...social incentives and fiscal incentives to
ride these days. It's good for you, the conventional wisdom is that you
should do it to fight global whatever, and it prevents you from having
to spent $x/gal for gas.

The idea of female riders as a litmus test is an intriguing one, but I
can certainly believe it!

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
 
L

Luigi de Guzman

Guest
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 04:18:18 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

>> > "Women cyclists," the city's transportation office asserts, "are the
>> > indicators of a healthy bikeway network."

>>
>> I was just noticing a day or so before I read this that I was seeing
>> more female bike commuters than I'd ever seen before. I wonder if it
>> represents a sort of normality tipping point?

>
> I think it represents the value of $x/gal gas (whatever it is locally;
> here it's $1/l in local currency and local fluid measures).
>
> But yeah, there's a lot of...social incentives and fiscal incentives to
> ride these days. It's good for you, the conventional wisdom is that you
> should do it to fight global whatever, and it prevents you from having
> to spent $x/gal for gas.


Nothing makes virtue so attractive as when greed can be served by a
virtuous act. Especially in America. We're in the middle of a Second
Bike Boom that is being triggered by another (slow-burning) energy crunch.
Break out your old PX-10s, boys, 'cause the price of gas is gonna rise
again!*[1]


> The idea of female riders as a litmus test is an intriguing one,

but I
> can certainly believe it!


There is a truism in certain urban planning circles that the cyclist is
the indicator of a healthy street environment.

--
[1] Y'know, along the lines of a bumper sticker I see sometimes around
here: "Save up your Confederate money, boys, 'cause the South's gonna
rise again!"




--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com
 
C

Cathy Kearns

Guest
"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Women riders have a civilizing influence.


I was transportational cyclist when my husband decided on his two year
sabbatical that he wanted to take up road biking. A year later he finally
convinced me to join him, but only if we rode a tandem. So a few weeks
after we got the bike we showed up to ride with my husband's normal group of
bike buddies, all male. As we came screaming down a long flat, to make a
turn into the hills I held my hand out to signal the turn (that's what the
ladies in the back do, signal turns...). My husband said no, no, there is
no way the cars are going to let us over, but sure enough, the car slowed to
let us over and we made the left turn. Now maybe it was just the driver
gawking at the half naked lady hoisting a bike over her head that was
printed on my jersey, or maybe it was the long hair sticking out of the back
of my helmet, but none of the guys could believe a driver on THAT road would
give cyclist the right of way. Note, it doesn't happen much when we are
out, but it doesn't happen at all when my husband is out without me.

Fast forward a few years later. I have my very own adorable tiny road bike,
and a group of school moms that we all go out and climb hills and share
school information and save our husbands tons in therapy bills. I am
absolutely amazed how patient traffic is with us. They stop and motion for
us to go ahead. They will follow and only pass if they can do so very
safely. In all my rides only once did a car honk at us. And I just waved.
I assumed they must be someone we knew, because after riding with the ladies
that long I am SURE they weren't honking at us to be mean.
 
D

Dane Buson

Guest
Luigi de Guzman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 04:18:18 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> Dane Buson wrote:


>>> I was just noticing a day or so before I read this that I was seeing
>>> more female bike commuters than I'd ever seen before. I wonder if it
>>> represents a sort of normality tipping point?

>>
>> I think it represents the value of $x/gal gas (whatever it is locally;
>> here it's $1/l in local currency and local fluid measures).
>>
>> But yeah, there's a lot of...social incentives and fiscal incentives to
>> ride these days. It's good for you, the conventional wisdom is that you
>> should do it to fight global whatever, and it prevents you from having
>> to spent $x/gal for gas.

>
> Nothing makes virtue so attractive as when greed can be served by a
> virtuous act. Especially in America. We're in the middle of a Second
> Bike Boom that is being triggered by another (slow-burning) energy crunch.
> Break out your old PX-10s, boys, 'cause the price of gas is gonna rise
> again!*[1]


It's true. You can talk to someone all day about the virtue of
something, but when you tell him it will put money in his pocket, you
really grab his attention. I know all the local bike shops have been
super busy this year. The nice weather doesn't hurt of course.

>> The idea of female riders as a litmus test is an intriguing one, but
>> I can certainly believe it!

>
> There is a truism in certain urban planning circles that the cyclist
> is the indicator of a healthy street environment.


I wonder if it used to be the pedestrian, but our communities have
become so spread out it's less common for people to be solely peds.
i.e., They tend to be multimodal, driving or bussing and then walking
the last 5%.

[1] NMF

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
"...and the fully armed nuclear warheads, are, of course, merely a
courtesy detail."
 
T

Tom Keats

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> writes:

> The idea of female riders as a litmus test is an intriguing one, but I
> can certainly believe it!


I find women riders are generally more sociable
at intersection encounters. And they bring a much
more sociable attitude into traffic interactions.

I let them honk my horn, when they ask nicely (as
they always do.)

Women riders have a civilizing influence.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca