Effect of heat on tire casing



Hello,

I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires and
have been very pleased with their performance and flat resistance.

However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.

The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
stiffer throughout the day.

Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on certain
tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the rubber, causing
it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.


Thanks,
Sam
 
[email protected] ha scritto:

> Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on certain
> tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the rubber, causing
> it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.


I have never noticed any such correlation. However, whatever happens
does depend also on the type of road one rides on: by going downhill
and braking the temperature gets significantly higher.

Sergio
Pisa
 
On 15 Jul 2006 14:50:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires and
>have been very pleased with their performance and flat resistance.
>
>However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
>temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
>distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
>changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>
>The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
>Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
>stiffer throughout the day.
>
>Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on certain
>tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the rubber, causing
>it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.
>
>
>Thanks,
>Sam


Dear Sam,

Unfortunately, a reasonable sample requires thousands of miles on the
same route and dozens of flats (or more). The Gatorskin is probably
just stiffer because it's thicker than whatever Avocet you're using.

Rain is the most commonly noticed correlation between flats and
weather, not heat.

One reason is that a wet front tire flings up far more debris,
increasing the probability that something sharp will be sticking up
dangerously instead of lying harmlessly flat when the rear tire
arrives.

The other reason is that water lubricates debris, reduces friction,
and lets it penetrate the tire more easily. We use rubber tires
because dry rubber has tremendous friction against dry surfaces.

The usual example offered here on RBT is cutting rubber tubing in a
high school lab. Dry tubing requires sawing back and forth with a dry
razor blade because the metal sides encounter more and more friction
as they slice into the rubber.

But if you wet the blade or the tube, you cut through easily with a
single swipe. The water lubricated the blade/rubber interface.

To return to hot weather, it's possible that more bottles are tossed
out windows in summer, just as more mowing operations might scatter
more thorns and debris on the road during the growing season.

For what it's worth, here's my flat tire average by month, going back
for years on the same route where winter rides are 36-45 degrees (to
hell with it when it's colder) and summer rides are over 90 degrees
(and agreeably faster, due to the lowered air density):

total 10 yr
212 avg

jan 7 3.3% 0.8
feb 20 9.4% 2.2
mar 25 11.8% 2.8
apr 17 8.0% 1.9
may 14 6.6% 1.6
jun 19 9.0% 2.1
jul 22 10.4% 2.4
aug 26 12.3% 2.9
sep 16 7.5% 1.8
oct 17 8.0% 1.9
nov 15 7.1% 1.7
dec 14 6.6% 1.6

There's a slight pattern of fewer flats in colder weather, but it's a
little misleading. December and January are cold months with few
flats, but they're also months where I skip more rides.

June, July, and August do seem to support a hot-weather theory, but
those hot months are when I rarely miss a ride, the goatheads are
flourishing, the road crews are mowing the sides of the highway and
bike path, beer-bottle-tossing traffic is higher to the reservoir, and
the gravel pit was busier. Summer is also when it rains here.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On 15 Jul 2006 14:50:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires
>> and have been very pleased with their performance and flat
>> resistance.
>>
>> However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
>> temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
>> distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
>> changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>>
>> The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
>> Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
>> stiffer throughout the day.
>>
>> Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on
>> certain tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the
>> rubber, causing it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sam

>
> Dear Sam,
>
> Unfortunately, a reasonable sample requires thousands of miles on the
> same route and dozens of flats (or more). The Gatorskin is probably
> just stiffer because it's thicker than whatever Avocet you're using.
>
> Rain is the most commonly noticed correlation between flats and
> weather, not heat.
>
> One reason is that a wet front tire flings up far more debris,
> increasing the probability that something sharp will be sticking up
> dangerously instead of lying harmlessly flat when the rear tire
> arrives.
>
> The other reason is that water lubricates debris, reduces friction,
> and lets it penetrate the tire more easily. We use rubber tires
> because dry rubber has tremendous friction against dry surfaces.
>
> The usual example offered here on RBT is cutting rubber tubing in a
> high school lab. Dry tubing requires sawing back and forth with a dry
> razor blade because the metal sides encounter more and more friction
> as they slice into the rubber.
>
> But if you wet the blade or the tube, you cut through easily with a
> single swipe. The water lubricated the blade/rubber interface.
>
> To return to hot weather, it's possible that more bottles are tossed
> out windows in summer, just as more mowing operations might scatter
> more thorns and debris on the road during the growing season.
>
> For what it's worth, here's my flat tire average by month, going back
> for years on the same route where winter rides are 36-45 degrees (to
> hell with it when it's colder) and summer rides are over 90 degrees
> (and agreeably faster, due to the lowered air density):
>
> total 10 yr
> 212 avg
>
> jan 7 3.3% 0.8
> feb 20 9.4% 2.2
> mar 25 11.8% 2.8
> apr 17 8.0% 1.9
> may 14 6.6% 1.6
> jun 19 9.0% 2.1
> jul 22 10.4% 2.4
> aug 26 12.3% 2.9
> sep 16 7.5% 1.8
> oct 17 8.0% 1.9
> nov 15 7.1% 1.7
> dec 14 6.6% 1.6
>
> There's a slight pattern of fewer flats in colder weather, but it's a
> little misleading. December and January are cold months with few
> flats, but they're also months where I skip more rides.
>
> June, July, and August do seem to support a hot-weather theory, but
> those hot months are when I rarely miss a ride, the goatheads are
> flourishing, the road crews are mowing the sides of the highway and
> bike path, beer-bottle-tossing traffic is higher to the reservoir, and
> the gravel pit was busier. Summer is also when it rains here.


It was a yes-no question.
 
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:06:27 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On 15 Jul 2006 14:50:44 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires
>>> and have been very pleased with their performance and flat
>>> resistance.
>>>
>>> However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
>>> temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
>>> distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
>>> changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>>>
>>> The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
>>> Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
>>> stiffer throughout the day.
>>>
>>> Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on
>>> certain tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the
>>> rubber, causing it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sam

>>
>> Dear Sam,
>>
>> Unfortunately, a reasonable sample requires thousands of miles on the
>> same route and dozens of flats (or more). The Gatorskin is probably
>> just stiffer because it's thicker than whatever Avocet you're using.
>>
>> Rain is the most commonly noticed correlation between flats and
>> weather, not heat.
>>
>> One reason is that a wet front tire flings up far more debris,
>> increasing the probability that something sharp will be sticking up
>> dangerously instead of lying harmlessly flat when the rear tire
>> arrives.
>>
>> The other reason is that water lubricates debris, reduces friction,
>> and lets it penetrate the tire more easily. We use rubber tires
>> because dry rubber has tremendous friction against dry surfaces.
>>
>> The usual example offered here on RBT is cutting rubber tubing in a
>> high school lab. Dry tubing requires sawing back and forth with a dry
>> razor blade because the metal sides encounter more and more friction
>> as they slice into the rubber.
>>
>> But if you wet the blade or the tube, you cut through easily with a
>> single swipe. The water lubricated the blade/rubber interface.
>>
>> To return to hot weather, it's possible that more bottles are tossed
>> out windows in summer, just as more mowing operations might scatter
>> more thorns and debris on the road during the growing season.
>>
>> For what it's worth, here's my flat tire average by month, going back
>> for years on the same route where winter rides are 36-45 degrees (to
>> hell with it when it's colder) and summer rides are over 90 degrees
>> (and agreeably faster, due to the lowered air density):
>>
>> total 10 yr
>> 212 avg
>>
>> jan 7 3.3% 0.8
>> feb 20 9.4% 2.2
>> mar 25 11.8% 2.8
>> apr 17 8.0% 1.9
>> may 14 6.6% 1.6
>> jun 19 9.0% 2.1
>> jul 22 10.4% 2.4
>> aug 26 12.3% 2.9
>> sep 16 7.5% 1.8
>> oct 17 8.0% 1.9
>> nov 15 7.1% 1.7
>> dec 14 6.6% 1.6
>>
>> There's a slight pattern of fewer flats in colder weather, but it's a
>> little misleading. December and January are cold months with few
>> flats, but they're also months where I skip more rides.
>>
>> June, July, and August do seem to support a hot-weather theory, but
>> those hot months are when I rarely miss a ride, the goatheads are
>> flourishing, the road crews are mowing the sides of the highway and
>> bike path, beer-bottle-tossing traffic is higher to the reservoir, and
>> the gravel pit was busier. Summer is also when it rains here.

>
>It was a yes-no question.


Could you stop being a jackass for a little while at least? Fogel gave
some informative info here -- it didn't fit into yes/no but could
still be useful..

JT


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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:06:27 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <[email protected]> wrote:


>> It was a yes-no question.


> Could you stop being a jackass for a little while at least? Fogel gave
> some informative info here -- it didn't fit into yes/no but could
> still be useful..


This from a guy who's back to humping my posts relentlessly, AND who just
told someone else to Google for citations about another person's assertions
(instead of the person backing his claims himself), yet flamed me for
calling Frank on that /exact same behavior/ earlier.

Your hypocrisy, like your ego, knows no bounds.

Sorno
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires and
> have been very pleased with their performance and flat resistance.
>
> However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
> temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
> distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
> changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>
> The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
> Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
> stiffer throughout the day.
>
> Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on certain
> tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the rubber, causing
> it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.


The Contis have stiffer casings than the Avocets. They may be more
durable (to sidewall abrasions) but will have higher rolling resistance.
I doubt that your flats had anything to do with casings.

What caused your flats? Thicker treads are a bit more resistant to flats
from small glass shards simply because the shard has to be larger to
reach the tube.
 
Peter Cole wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have, for several years, been riding exclusively on Avocet tires and
> > have been very pleased with their performance and flat resistance.
> >
> > However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
> > temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
> > distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
> > changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
> >
> > The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
> > Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
> > stiffer throughout the day.
> >
> > Has anyone noticed a correlation between high heat and flats on certain
> > tires? It seemed to me that the heat could soften the rubber, causing
> > it to pick up loose debris on the road more readily.

>
> The Contis have stiffer casings than the Avocets. They may be more
> durable (to sidewall abrasions) but will have higher rolling resistance.
> I doubt that your flats had anything to do with casings.
>
> What caused your flats? Thicker treads are a bit more resistant to flats
> from small glass shards simply because the shard has to be larger to
> reach the tube.


Flat #1 was a pinch flat, which probably wasn't the tire's fault. Flat
#2 was a thorn, and flat #3 was a little glass shard. For flat #4 there
was a tiny hole that could have been a thorn, but no obvious cause
remained in the tire. #5 and #6 were both a sidewall gash from a sharp
rock; my boot failed initially, but the second time it held better.

The Gatorskin replacement tire fared well until I slashed the sidewall
during a crash coming down Ebbets Pass a couple weekends ago, but I
can't really blame that on the tire.

The real motivation for the question, though, is I was astounded by how
"soft" the Avocets felt in the heat compared to cooler weather. I can't
say that this caused it to pick up more debris, but it certainly seemed
like it should. Two datapoints do not constitute a trend, and 3 of the
6 flats were likely not due to road debris, but even 3 flats over a
couple hundred miles is unusually high, and on this particular 4-day
ride, was a significant deviation from the norm.


Thanks,
Sam
 
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:35:27 -0700, shuffman wrote:

> Peter Cole wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:


>> > However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
>> > temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
>> > distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
>> > changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>> >
>> > The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
>> > Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
>> > stiffer throughout the day.


Well, the Avocet may have been worn out, or nearly so. the Gatorskin has
a thick wall in order to keep flats down, but most of the time what will
flat one tire will flat another, and thicker walls make for a slower tire.

>> What caused your flats? Thicker treads are a bit more resistant to
>> flats from small glass shards simply because the shard has to be larger
>> to reach the tube.

>
> Flat #1 was a pinch flat, which probably wasn't the tire's fault. Flat
> #2 was a thorn, and flat #3 was a little glass shard. For flat #4 there
> was a tiny hole that could have been a thorn, but no obvious cause
> remained in the tire. #5 and #6 were both a sidewall gash from a sharp
> rock; my boot failed initially, but the second time it held better.


Well, this just seems like bad tire karma. Did you think ill of another
cyclist yesterday? That can have an effect. Go and meditate on your
attitude towards all who go upon two wheels. Be at peace, and you will
avoid flats.

Besides, the only thing that the thick-walled tires would have protected
against is that sliver of glass. Thorns (well, goatheads) can get through
any bicycle tire.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
_`\(,_ | certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to
(_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein
 
David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:35:27 -0700, shuffman wrote:
>
>
>>Peter Cole wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:

>
>
>>>>However on a recent ride in hot temperature (~ 105 degree air
>>>>temperature, probably hotter on the pavement), I had 6 flats for 5
>>>>distinct reasons over a couple hundred miles. I noticed also (while
>>>>changing the flats) that the casing felt extremely supple.
>>>>
>>>>The following day, in comparable heat, I switched to a Continental
>>>>Gatorskin, and experienced no flats. The casing also seemed to remain
>>>>stiffer throughout the day.

>
>
> Well, the Avocet may have been worn out, or nearly so. the Gatorskin has
> a thick wall in order to keep flats down, but most of the time what will
> flat one tire will flat another, and thicker walls make for a slower tire.
>
>
>>>What caused your flats? Thicker treads are a bit more resistant to
>>>flats from small glass shards simply because the shard has to be larger
>>>to reach the tube.

>>
>>Flat #1 was a pinch flat, which probably wasn't the tire's fault. Flat
>>#2 was a thorn, and flat #3 was a little glass shard. For flat #4 there
>>was a tiny hole that could have been a thorn, but no obvious cause
>>remained in the tire. #5 and #6 were both a sidewall gash from a sharp
>>rock; my boot failed initially, but the second time it held better.

>
>
> Well, this just seems like bad tire karma. Did you think ill of another
> cyclist yesterday? That can have an effect. Go and meditate on your
> attitude towards all who go upon two wheels. Be at peace, and you will
> avoid flats.


http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove/koan.htm

-Mark