Effects of censorship on reporting of Israel/Hezbollah fighting.

[Carrera]

"Actually it is, because all you have done is just make the allegations without supporting them with sources here and now. You keep on doing that and quite frankly it doesn't look like laziness anymore, so all we can conclude is that you make stuff up and use tainted sources intentionally."
Take that:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ud15.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/03/15/ixworld.html
"SAUDI Arabia's religious police are reported to have forced schoolgirls back into a blazing building because they were not wearing Islamic headscarves and black robes."
"A civil defence officer told an Arabic-language newspaper, al-Eqtisadiah, that he saw three members of the religious police "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

Rave on Denial Boy. I am the one condemning violence, you are the one excusing it.



My prediction : Crappy ignores the post, changes the topic.



So what ? Israel has been breaking UN Resolution 242 for 50 years. When Israel complies with 242 I will advocate Hezbollah complying with 1559 (which Israel is also violating as we speak).



The IDF does all of that as a matter of routine. I can understand that the IDF may be assuming that it's enemies operate in the same way, but I can't understand why they don't do their target reconn and selection properly. They have unrestricted access to 24x7 satellite and drone intelligence, yet they are routinely wasting their bombs on women and children.

Hezbollah have a better civillian / militant kill ratio than the IDF at the moment without access to intelligence of that quality or precision guided weapons. The only rational conclusion I can draw is that the IDF is either deliberately targetting civillians (see Dan Halutz's 10 for 1 promise), or they are criminally negligent. Either way they are killing more civillians than militants and that will simply lead to more civillians becoming militant, so the net result is that their campaign will result in a net gain for the Lebanese resistance movement.



The accounts were there in print for you to read, they are very clear. Either you have not read them, or you are simply denying that they exist.



A mistake in this context goes along the lines of :
1) Convoy asks IDF for clearance to move along a pre-deterimined route at a pre-determined time.
2) The IDF grants clearance (as you rightly said they do).
3) By chance an IDF ground attack aircraft just happens to have taken off over 100-200 miles away and just happens to be right over that very same convoy as it crosses into Lebanon.

The repeated coincidences along those lines stretches credibility somewhat, particularly in view of the IDF's response to the UNIFIL posts asking them to ceasefire for over 6 hours.



So what ? The IDF do the same trick. By the logic that you share with the IDF it is legitimate for any Israeli home to be attacked.



The same argument goes for Coventry in WWII and every single settlement in Israel today.



You have rarely responded to the posts or researched the sources Crappy. In response to your post from that dubious character in Germany, I have ONLY found that article coming from the Mel P/Pipes Axis of Evil. That said I have no doubt that Hezbollah and the IDF stash weapons in and around urban areas, which makes it doubly criminal for a military campaign to be based around the destruction of all such weapons using indiscriminate weapons (eg: laser guided bombs, hellfire missiles, artillery etc).



Indeed, you do that yourself.



Indeed, you have, fill your boots.



Actually it is, because all you have done is just make the allegations without supporting them with sources here and now. You keep on doing that and quite frankly it doesn't look like laziness anymore, so all we can conclude is that you make stuff up and use tainted sources intentionally.



You keep making that claim Crappy, but it is a lie. I have never made the point that Israel is uniquely despotic or barbaric. It is certainly despotic and barbaric towards ~50% of it's population, they don't get the democracy bit, they don't even get granted citizenship. Syria by contrast has taken in over 500,000 refugees from Iraq and Lebanon over the last 4 years, they get more rights than Palestinians who have lived on the same patch of land all their lives.



I don't see why that is relevent to Israel's mistreatment of the indigenous Gentile population.



Hey, I am not the one making stuff up and attributing it to ethnic groups.

You have made loads of **** up about Muslims and immigrants, and have been proven categorically wrong each time (as Lim kindly reminded us).

You have specifically stated that you don't want immigrants in this country and you keep claiming that they don't make any contribution and that you resent the existence of Mosques.

Your pet belief is that people of different races can't get on so every race should have it's own ethnically "pure" homeland.

By contrast...

I have repeatedly refuted your lies about immigrants and Muslims with evidence backed by multiple independent sources.

I have stated that I believe that immigrants should be welcome in this country and that I see value in their contribution.

I have specifically stated that I believe that people should get along and that segregation simply does not work. It didn't work in the USA, it didn't work in South Africa, it does not work in Israel. It doesn't seem to work anywhere in fact.

If anyone's mind is fuelled by prejudice it is yours.



Unlikely, for the reasons I gave in a previous post that you failed to respond to (presumably because you are in denial over it's contents).

 

[darkboong]

"So what ? Israel has been breaking UN Resolution 242 for 50 years. When Israel complies with 242 I will advocate Hezbollah complying with 1559 (which Israel is also violating as we speak)."

Let's forget resolution 242 for now and focus on more pressing issues:

Resolution 242 *IS* the pressing issue with respect to the current war being waged against Lebanon and the Palestinians. Resolution 242 calls for *all* parties to withdraw their troops to within the recognised boundaries, and cease hostilities. That would resolve the two-state issue within Israel, it would remove the border disputes between Israel, Jordan, Syria AND Lebanon all in one fell swoop.

What are your thoughs on this business of Iran flogging women in public or hanging gays by a noose (after 60 odd lashes)? Please address the issue and let's compare intolerant Israel with your "progressive" Iran:

It sounds terrible and wrong, but at least they get their day in court. In Israel people are extra-judicially murdered by the State as a matter of policy. You are in favour of extra-judicial state murder, so why are you so touchy about Iran persecuting homosexuals ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel
"Gay rights in Israel remain the most advanced and tolerant in the Middle East. In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor."

Big wup. They still murder Palestinians and Lebanese by the score without trial.

"These abuses have created an atmosphere of terror for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people throughout Iran,” said Stern. “But arrest, torture and execution are not limited to gays and lesbians. Any group of people deemed ‘immoral’ becomes subject to state-sanctioned persecution and even murder.”

Materially no different from how Israel treats the Palestinians. Golly, perhaps Iran is as bad as Israel after all.

"Dr. Phyllis Chesler, a renowned author of fifteen books including the

None of that changes the fact that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is wrong and inexcusable.

Note : I'm not arguing with you about Iran. I am simply telling you that it doesn't change the situation with Israel one iota. It is entirely orthogonal to Israel, it has no bearing on the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine.

As far as Israel is concerned you never ever admit that anything is wrong with how they treat Palestinians. It is always someone else's fault or another country treated Jews badly 50 or 1000 years ago, or other countries have more oppressive dress codes and punishments. That said the extrajudicial murder and indefinite detention without trial practiced by Israel is about as oppressive as you can get. Let's not forget that Israel also practices torture on detainees (many of the condemned US torture practices were in fact taken directly from the IDF).

 

[Carrera]

"Resolution 242 *IS* the pressing issue with respect to the current war being waged against Lebanon and the Palestinians."

Seems like you're now at odds with the BBC since they admit Hezbollah broke a U.N. resolution to disarm. Essentially they agreed to disarm and they didn't disarm. It's that simple. Instead they smuggled weapons into urban areas with the aim of firing them into Israel.

"It sounds terrible and wrong, but at least they get their day in court. In Israel people are extra-judicially murdered by the State as a matter of policy. You are in favour of extra-judicial state murder, so why are you so touchy about Iran persecuting homosexuals?"

I figured it was important for people to understand how Israel and Iran really differ on the human rights issue, so I highlighted the situation regarding gays, lesbians and womens' rights as people tend to feel strongly about that. I also pointed out to people that the president of Iran declared he would drive Christianity out of his country (whereas Christians have no such problem in Israel). I highlighted the persecutions of other religions, closings of churches e.t.c. - all in Iran.
I'd also like to ask the readers or yourself how they feel about the death penalty of so-called apostates in Iran and if anyone can find a comparable law in Israel, i.e. that Jews who convert to Christianity are murdered by the State.
Let me repeat: Iranian Moslems who become Christians are classed as apostates in Iran and are sentenced to death.
The reason I'm bringing this up is to back up my theory and it's a simple theory: None of your threads address human rights in general or criticize countries such as Iran. True, you may have made the odd comment about Serbia or Russia but I see no actual thread you raised that tackles situations another country apart from Israel. If there is such a thread, I'd be happy to see it highlighted.
Conclusion: If someone posts endlessly about how terrible Israel is and how awful a regime exists in that country but no other country (especially Arab country) is criticized, then that's clear discrimination and prejudice. Discrimination is about applying a certain set of rules to one individual or country but not applying comparable rules to others.
Answer this: With all the discrimination, the floggings, amputations and hangings in Iran e.t.c., why don't you take a break from searching on Google about Israel and see what can be dug up about Iran?
Let me help you out with this one:
Mohsen Mofidi has been sentenced to be flogged, and the sentence could be
carried out at any time.
He and his three sisters were arrested by the morality police in July 2003, at
their home in Tehran. All were released on bail, and ordered to attend court
for trial on 28 July. Mohsen was sentenced to four months' imprisonment, to be followed by 80 lashes, on charges including possession of a medicine containing alcohol, consuming alcohol 20 years previously, possession of a satellite dish, and aiding and abetting his sisters’ "corruption" (having boyfriends, to which they allegedly admitted after being beaten in custody).
His sisters were sentenced to 80 lashes and 130
lashes respectively on charges of ‘corruption’ for having boyfriends."





It sounds terrible and wrong, but at least they get their day in court. In Israel people are extra-judicially murdered by the State as a matter of policy. You are in favour of extra-judicial state murder, so why are you so touchy about Iran persecuting homosexuals ?



Big wup. They still murder Palestinians and Lebanese by the score without trial.



Materially no different from how Israel treats the Palestinians. Golly, perhaps Iran is as bad as Israel after all.



None of that changes the fact that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is wrong and inexcusable.

Note : I'm not arguing with you about Iran. I am simply telling you that it doesn't change the situation with Israel one iota. It is entirely orthogonal to Israel, it has no bearing on the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine.

As far as Israel is concerned you never ever admit that anything is wrong with how they treat Palestinians. It is always someone else's fault or another country treated Jews badly 50 or 1000 years ago, or other countries have more oppressive dress codes and punishments. That said the extrajudicial murder and indefinite detention without trial practiced by Israel is about as oppressive as you can get. Let's not forget that Israel also practices torture on detainees (many of the condemned US torture practices were in fact taken directly from the IDF).[/QUOTE]

 

[darkboong]

"Resolution 242 *IS* the pressing issue with respect to the current war being waged against Lebanon and the Palestinians."

Seems like you're now at odds with the BBC since they admit Hezbollah broke a U.N. resolution to disarm. Essentially they agreed to disarm and they didn't disarm. It's that simple. Instead they smuggled weapons into urban areas with the aim of firing them into Israel.

Not at all. I am in no doubt that 1559 has not been fully implemented, but that doesn't change the fact that Resolution 242 hasn't been implemented at all for over 50 years. Two wrongs, don't make a right. In this particular case 242 would have guaranteed Lebanon's security, so that Israel would not have invaded Lebanon (on 3 occasions prior to this), invasions which led to the creation of the resistance movement Hezbollah.

It is also of note that UNIFIL reports that the IDF made TEN TIMES as many border incursions as Hezbollah since getting kicked out of Lebanon in 2000. The provocation argument is utter bollocks when you look at the reality of the situation, specifically 4 invasions and 10 times as many border incursions during peace time. The casualty figures speak volumes in this particular ethnic cleansing exercise (aka making a buffer zone - which should be on Israeli land seeing as they have been the aggressors on 4 occasions now).

I figured it was important for people to understand how Israel and Iran really differ on the human rights issue,

To be honest I can't see the point in it simply because Israeli law doesn't even grant citizenship to the Palestinians, who form ~50% of the population. Non-citizens don't get any human rights.

Let me repeat: Iranian Moslems who become Christians are classed as apostates in Iran and are sentenced to death.

Demonstratably Untrue. The problem you have here is the examples you gave listed a charge of "Spying", which commonly receives very stiff penalties in any country. Israel locks people away in solitary for 20 years for such things, such as Mordecai Vanunu.

The reason I'm bringing this up is to back up my theory and it's a simple theory: None of your threads address human rights in general or criticize countries such as Iran. True, you may have made the odd comment

Firstly within this very thread I have criticized Iran in response to your posts, yet you pretend that I have not here. You are lying again. Furthermore I have criticized the UK (incl. British Empire), South Africa (Apartheid), Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Turkey on Human Rights issues in past posts.

Secondly, as I have explained on 4 occasions within this thread, Iran isn't my particular area of interest or study, and I simply don't have time to cover it in the same depth as Israel/Palestine.

Thirdly, Iran doesn't start wars and has not Ethnically Cleansing 50% of it's population, so it simply has not created the sheer number of victims that Israel's aggression and Ethnic Cleansing has.

For all those reasons Iran doesn't concern me nearly as much as Israel.

As far as Israel is concerned you never ever admit that anything is wrong with how they treat Palestinians.

Not to mention that you are still lying through your teeth.

Nothing changes, eh ?

 

[Carrera]

What becomes evident here is you don't seem to want to focus on this new line of argument but I notice I get dragged back into nit-picking over Israel.
Let's keep on the topics of discrimination, bias and propaganda.
My question is simple: Why do you spend several hours every day trawling Google on a one-man crusade to convince us all Israel is a barbaric, uncivilised country, often quoting dodgy sources (perhaps people who work for Reuters and are then found out by bloggers)?
I recall no thread you ever raised that criticized Iran, Syria or Iraq. I mean, not the odd comment but an actual thread.
On the other hand I can name countless threads you devoted to Israel.
In one post months ago you stated you would like to live in Iran and it seems to me you truly believe Iran is a more civilized, progressive country than Israel, correct?

"To be honest I can't see the point in it simply because Israeli law doesn't even grant citizenship to the Palestinians, who form ~50% of the population."

This is nonsense. Israel agreed to the U.N. 2 state solution but the Palestinians burned their bridges by reverting to terrorism, even kidnapping westerners. Arab States pleaded with them to go ahead and show they could run a state but they were blinded with so much hate for the nearest successful democracy, it never got off the ground.
By the way, you still haven't produced any accounts of Israel flogging women or gay men in public, closing Christian churches and executing so-called apostates.
Moreover, if you feel so sure about how progressive Iran is, why not take a trip to Tehran and publically declare what you claimed to me - that you're supposedly an atheist?
I don't somehow believe the Iranian clerics would be too happy about you saying that in the middle of Tehran but, hell, I'll buy you a ticket if you fancy your chances.

Not at all. I am in no doubt that 1559 has not been fully implemented, but that doesn't change the fact that Resolution 242 hasn't been implemented at all for over 50 years. Two wrongs, don't make a right. In this particular case 242 would have guaranteed Lebanon's security, so that Israel would not have invaded Lebanon (on 3 occasions prior to this), invasions which led to the creation of the resistance movement Hezbollah.

It is also of note that UNIFIL reports that the IDF made TEN TIMES as many border incursions as Hezbollah since getting kicked out of Lebanon in 2000. The provocation argument is utter bollocks when you look at the reality of the situation, specifically 4 invasions and 10 times as many border incursions during peace time. The casualty figures speak volumes in this particular ethnic cleansing exercise (aka making a buffer zone - which should be on Israeli land seeing as they have been the aggressors on 4 occasions now).



To be honest I can't see the point in it simply because Israeli law doesn't even grant citizenship to the Palestinians, who form ~50% of the population. Non-citizens don't get any human rights.



Demonstratably Untrue. The problem you have here is the examples you gave listed a charge of "Spying", which commonly receives very stiff penalties in any country. Israel locks people away in solitary for 20 years for such things, such as Mordecai Vanunu.



Firstly within this very thread I have criticized Iran in response to your posts, yet you pretend that I have not here. You are lying again. Furthermore I have criticized the UK (incl. British Empire), South Africa (Apartheid), Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Turkey on Human Rights issues in past posts.

Secondly, as I have explained on 4 occasions within this thread, Iran isn't my particular area of interest or study, and I simply don't have time to cover it in the same depth as Israel/Palestine.

Thirdly, Iran doesn't start wars and has not Ethnically Cleansing 50% of it's population, so it simply has not created the sheer number of victims that Israel's aggression and Ethnic Cleansing has.

For all those reasons Iran doesn't concern me nearly as much as Israel.



Not to mention that you are still lying through your teeth.

Nothing changes, eh ?

 

[darkboong]

What becomes evident here is you don't seem to want to focus on this new line of argument but I notice I get dragged back into nit-picking over Israel.

Indeed, that happens because you keep evading the topic.

Let's keep on the topics of discrimination, bias and propaganda.

Sure, you are full of it.

My question is simple: Why do you spend several hours every day trawling Google on a one-man crusade to convince us all Israel is a barbaric, uncivilised country, often quoting dodgy sources (perhaps people who work for Reuters and are then found out by bloggers)?

Simple answer : Lies can hurt people, and you tell lies that can hurt people.

I recall no thread you ever raised that criticized Iran, Syria or Iraq. I mean, not the odd comment but an actual thread.

That is because I have *very* rarely started threads. Almost all of my posts have been in response to bigotry that hurts minorities, immigrants, Muslims and Arabs.

On the other hand I can name countless threads you devoted to Israel.

They were not my threads to "devote". In case you haven't noticed other people make their own contributions.

In one post months ago you stated you would like to live in Iran and it seems to me you truly believe Iran is a more civilized, progressive country than Israel, correct?

I can not recall stating that. Would you care to provide a quote for a change rather than making it up as you go along ?

"To be honest I can't see the point in it simply because Israeli law doesn't even grant citizenship to the Palestinians, who form ~50% of the population."

This is nonsense. Israel agreed to the U.N. 2 state solution but the

Correct, but the reason that fell through was because an Israeli terrorist assasinated the Israeli PM who signed that historic agreement. Ariel Sharon made no such committment at all, in fact he actually broke the terms of it the very day it was announced (by building more settlements in the Occupied Territories).

Gross misrepresentation of the facts and fabrications won't make you any more "correct" Crappy. It will simply compound your guilt and complicity in the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians.