Effects of Insulin and diuretics???

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by wilmar13, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    With to all the traffic about doping the road racing forum, two things that riders are using don't make sense to my limited understanding and I was hoping someone can enlighten me:

    Insulin: Flyer has quoted others as saying "it is anabolic as hell" and that it speeds recovery and nutrition. But from what I know of Diabetes, there is nothing to be gained by taking too much insulin (results in low blood sugar), so how does it help someone whose pancreas already releases enough insulin? Can you just eat a bunch, and digest it really fast or what? I tried a google search on how does insulin work, but all I got was a bunch of sites for diabetes and drug makers who only talked about blood sugar levels, but not how it actually worked and how this process could be used to expedite the recovery process in an athlete.

    Diuretics: What do you gain here? I mean this is always given as a bad thing with advice to amateur cyclists (caffeine, alcohol, etc.). What are they, how do they work, and what is the reason you use them?

    Thanks!
     
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  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    He is correct that insulin (a powerful hormone) is considered anabolic, but in limited situations.

    Personally, I make every effort to control my insulin through natural nutrition. I do not want or desire high insulin spikes.

    Most of what I know about insulin use is in conjunction with HGH. I do not know the benefit of using insulin without using HGH. As far as I know in my simplistic knowlege of HGH is that insulin helps intensify the effects of HGH.

    Retry a Google search HGH IGF-1

    I added a few links that may give more insight.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7950906&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/planet15.htm

    http://www.muscleenhancers.com/steroid-bible/hgh.htm
     
  3. Orange Fish

    Orange Fish New Member

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    Insulin as an ergogenic aid is bad. Simple as that. One of the actions of insulin is to promote uptake of carbohydrate into the cells. When we eat a carb-containing meal, the food is digested, and our blood sugar levels increase. That's when insulin kicks in to do its job. It gets secreted from the pancreas and helps the carbohydrate to cross into the cells of the body for whatever they may be used for (varies depending on the organ/tissue).
    Diabetics need Insulin, and we all know that it works for them and they can enjoy an active lifestyle as long as they continue to get the appropriate amounts of Insulin and food during exercise.
    As for non-diabetics, we absolutely do not need Insulin, and it won't help in any way. It can actually be extremely dangerous on the other hand. With an overdose, so to speak, of Insulin, we can become hypoglycemic (dangerously low blood sugar levels) and this can eventually lead to sweating, weakness, slurred speech, confusion, and seizures. It's just like if you were to go do this ultra-endurance event and not take in a carbohydrate supplement - you would eventually deplete your muscle and liver glycogen stores, and have extremely low blood sugar levels...you would "hit the wall" and start to feel weak, have slurred speech, and be confused, etc. So taking Insulin for sport if you're a non-diabetic is not a good idea.

    Diuretics promote water loss. Many sports can benefit from this such as wrestling (to make weight), gymnastics or ballet (to reduce weight for asthetic purposes, etc), and even simple weight loss. However, water loss for cyclists is never really a good thing. You're right...caffeiene and alcohol are both diuretics and they can be a bad thing for amateur cyclists. One good thing about caffeine at least is that while it may act to promote water loss, it will also promote use of fat as an energy source. However, you have to weigh the risks and benefits to taking caffeine. On top of that you have all the side effects, addictive nature, and the effects of stopping taking caffeine. But as far as diuretics in general go, they would not be beneficial for cyclists. Depending on which diuretic we talk about, there are many dosing suggestions, so it's hard to say how much one would take.

    Hope that helps! http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  4. Orange Fish

    Orange Fish New Member

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    Just as a side note on the web sites:

    * "it is of course important to note that thyroid and insulin are particularly powerful drugs that involve a number of additional risks." from the muscle enhancers web site
    * "The drug can also enlarge vital organs such as the heart and kidney, and has been linked to hypoglycemia and diabetes (presumably due to its ability to induce insulin resistance). Theoretically, overuse of this hormone can bring about a number of conditions, some life threatening." (same site)

    Something to take into consieration when supplementing with HGH. Also, the question was for taking Insulin as a lone supplement, but HGH is another story. In my opinion, HGH would be of no benefit to a cyclist. (just my two cents) http://cyclingforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
     
  5. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    Well sort of :confused: You confirmed what I already thought about both subjects. Neither one makes sense to me in a performance enhancing capacity and I am hoping someone can shed light onto how they could be used, specifically in regards to cycling. I understand that many things that ARE diuretics can be of benefit (caffeine, etc.), but that I would view that as a downside to something with upsides that outweighs it. The accusations I am trying to understand are that they are taking "diuretics" with the intent to seek the diuretic effect rather than accept it as a side effect. I don't understand what can be gained by rapidly depleting an endurance athlete's body of water content (perhaps to remove toxins or something???) before rehydrating. Either the accusations are total BS (maybe), the athletes and their doctors in question are morons (even more doubtful), or there is something else going on here that we do not understand. I have not had a chance to research what you gain by using insulin with HGH, but at least using insulin with something else seems more plausible to me (because taking insulin alone makes no sense at all), I am sure the diuretics thing must be a similar situation.
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I see no purpose in using diuretics in cycling at all.
    That just doesn't make sense to me.

    In other sports diuretics were used for a few reasons, but each person reacts different to drugs. Some have not tolerated diuretics or either used them improperly and have died. Just as some people have not tolerated caffiene and ephendrine mix and have died on their first use.

    The two reasons that I know for using diuretics are to make a weight class limits and to help remove subcutaneous water that is a side effect from too much water retention from androgen use. Many bodybuilders could be at a very low bodyfat percentage, but holding water in the skin could obscure definition. I have seen guys not only risk bodily harm by using diruretics, but the result from using the diuretic actually hurt their placing because it will remove total body water not just subcutaneous and therefore they actually looked like crap during the competition.

    I would not take a chance using diuretics for any sport, but that's just my opinion.
     
  7. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    I don't think any of us would... but while most doping techniques are intuitive to me (raising hematocrit, quick recovery, etc.), these two are not, I would love to understand what Pros stand to gain from these two doping techniques.
     
  8. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Not all athletes are brillant nor their coaches :D
     
  9. Orange Fish

    Orange Fish New Member

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    Ok, sorry about that. It sounded like you were maybe asking more than what you really needed to know. I wasn't under the impression that you already had your opinions on these two things.

    As for the part about diuretics that you're trying to understand, I can't answer that one. I'm not sure why any cyclist would want to deplete himself of water. There are some crazy (in my opinion) detox diets, but from what I understand of those, they are used to "detoxify" the body and are typically for people who have pretty bad diets. As for an athlete who WANTS to dehydreate himself, and then rehydrate, that just sounds silly. I can't come up with any good reason an athlete would need to do that.
     
  10. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    NO problem,l I didn't do a good job of clarifying my questions I guess. Lately Flyer has included a lot of doping allegations which include using insulin and diuretics. This just didn't make sense to me, and he takes the stance of messenger rather than educator when it comes to this subject. I am looking for someone that can take the educator stance and explain why the hell cyclists would use these substances and how it helps. :confused:
     
  11. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    If you want more information you can try a post at:

    www.musclemayhem.com

    You will have to register to be able to see the thread "Chemical Warfare" under the forums link. If you ask a question there you may get a good reply. Like many forums there are a share of morons, but there are also some very knowledgeable people there. Many IFBB pros are members on that site, but you will not get an answer from them.
     
  12. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    Thanks, I will look at this site when I go home tonight. My fear though is that cyclists and weight lifters/body builders have such different goals especially in regards to uses of diuretics. Who knows maybe it is BS that Flyer is posting, but I would like to find out what, if any, would be a real benefit to a cyclist of using either of these.
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    http://www.science.org.au/nova/055/055key.htm

    Check this next link at the bottom of the page for diuretics.
    I believe the same as what he wrote - "cyclist have little to gain from its use".

    http://www.jbst.com/ce_ergo.html

    http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/HQ/01105.html


    The problem with some athletes is that using some drugs are not enough. The dosages that I used were above what a doctor would prescribe, but I had friends that would use twice the amount of what I used. "More is better principle" But it doesn't really work that way. Each person has receptors and those receptors react to chemicals different ways. However, the receptors can only handle so much and then the rest creates more risk by increased toxicity.

    The reason I chose not to use diuretics is that it just didn't add up to me. Steroids cause water retention/hypertension. Retaining water in the muscle creates leverage strength, but it also causes subcutaneous water retention at varying degrees depending on what type of drug used. It didn't make sense to me to counter the effects of water retention which is what I was wanting in the muscle tissue and then counter those effects with diuretics.

    androgens = hypertension = strength & muscular size
    diuretics = rid the body of excess water

    In my thinking that was counter productive.
    My choice was to manipulate subcutaneous water retention instead by carb depleting and then carb loading (discussed on another thread) to manipulate subcutaneous water. My method wasn't perfect, but at least I wasn't using diuretics and my results were more consistent than diuretics. I have seen guys look great the day before competition with full muscle bellies and then the day of competitions be flat and stringy looking because the diurectic dumped all of their fluid retention and they could not refill with fluid fast enough. Weeks of training down the drain with just one pill.
     
  14. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Many of these guys know chemicals very well.
    I know chemicals pretty good, just not all chemicals like insulin.

    That knowledge can be cross related to some degree. You just have to let them know specifically what you reason is and that is for cycling purposes.

    I would ask, "I am a competitive cyclist and I have seen that some comments that suggests that cyclist have used diuretics. This goes against what my understanding of how diuretics works in the body, but I would like your opinion from your knowledge base why someone would dehydrate their body in an event that requires hydration?"

    You may or may not get a decent answer, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I was reading up a little bit about IGF-1 and so far it is based on my simplistic thoughts. IGF-1 is primarily used in conjunction with HGH for two reason increased sensitivity in the receptors and because HGH lowers natural insulin levels. For that reason additional insulin is required to raise the levels. It works in conjuction with growth hormone.

    I have seen and been in conversations about growth hormone many times.
    I have heard to get the best out of HGH, insulin and anabolics are required, but I don't know that for sure. Just conversations from friends.

    For me I didn't want the risk involved with using insulin.
    A $12 trophy wasn't worth going into a coma.
     
  16. martin_j001

    martin_j001 New Member

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    I'm pretty sure insulin is used for a combination of two things that have been mentioned already, and as Felt_Rider said, intentions may be different between athletes of different sports, but I'll discuss cycling here. One use may be to combat the side effects of growth hormone usage, and the other is probably to assist in extremely fast, efficient usage of carbohydrates--both simple and complex.

    The closer the blood sugar is to the bottom end of the normal range, the body will use carbs that are present in a much more efficient manner than if the blood sugar were toward the higher end of normal, or above normal. When an athlete is putting out a great deal of energy, as in cycling, and consumes a great deal of simple carbs suddenly (eg a bottle of gatorade), you have two things working against the efficient use of sugars (in a way): one is that natural hormones in the body increase bloodsugar during short, hard bouts of exercise, the other is a blood sugar spike--where the blood sugar will increase a great deal very quickly, before the body has a chance to react and release insulin of its own. If insulin is present in the body already, the pancreas will have to do less work because those insulin receptors are already "at capacity", so the body doesn't need to make more insulin so quickly. In the end, I think what cyclists are trying to do is to control the bloodsugar better than the human body can do on its own, the same as a type one diabetic (like myself) wants to do. As everyone pointed out already though, insulin usage in non-diabetics is a very dangerous choice to make. A little too much, and you may end up in a coma for a long time, or worse yet, dead. Also, there may be long term effects of using insulin that is foreign to the body, and this could eventually cause an autoimmune response (which is suspected of causing a lot of type one diabetes in the first place). I personally don't get why anyone would want to do this at all....
     
  17. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Good post Martin. (fellow Atlantan)
     
  18. wilmar13

    wilmar13 New Member

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    How would something like HGH help an endurance athlete?
     
  19. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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  20. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    I think I've read (somewhere) that since insulin helps the body absorb carbohydrates quicker, it's useful as a recovery tool. You deplete glycogen, then use carbs with insulin to restore glycogen levels quicker.....meaning you're ready to go again quicker.

    Of course that comes with all the danger already noted.

    I've also read there are some foods (forget which) that stimulate insulin release after exercise that would tend to accomplish the same thing. I think perhaps I read it in Friel's book?

    Diuretics, specifically caffiene.. I believe has been shown to increase endurance to some extent. You have to balance that with the dehydration aspect of using it. I'm a coffee drinker myself, and although I can't see myself ever TAKING caffiene, I doubt I'll give up my coffee.

    Going from memory but hope it helps.
     
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