Effects of Insulin and diuretics???



Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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I was speaking to a guy this morning who is training for a bodybuilding competition. He confided to me that he was on growth hormone and I asked if he was using insulin with it. He said no way.

I think many local competitors that I speak with that are daring enough to use growth will not use insulin. That is very telling in itself. It is simply too dangerous to use without closely monitoring blood sugar levels. Other drugs you can take a near prescribed amount and feel like you are somewhere in range and you don't have to be dead on with the dosage. Insulin is not like that. I imagine you would have to take blood samplings just like a diabetic to know how much and how often you can use without going into a diabetic coma.

By the way the guy I was speaking to this morning was carrying a lot of muscle mass. I mean a lot. Looking at him I don't know how someone would want to use growth hormone as a competitive cyclist, but then again its all about genetics. If a person is a natural ectomorph and is not eating to gain muscle and their training is almost catabolic there is less possibility to gain as much lean mass as this guy is carrying. Therefore anabolics, androgens, HGH, IGF-1 may only act as recovery aids.

I will just state again. I used for over 10 years straight. I walked away from it and I am glad I did for a multitude of reasons. I just wished I had been a little smarter when I was younger and not so tunnel visioned about winning.
 

cadence230

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It is to my understanding that diuretics are also a way to balance electrolytes. Such as to get rid of excess sodium and helping with kidney health? Mike
 

wilmar13

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cadence230 said:
It is to my understanding that diuretics are also a way to balance electrolytes. Such as to get rid of excess sodium and helping with kidney health? Mike

Well thanks for the replies. I guess the Insulin is only for rapid recovery (whether used in conjunction with growth hormones or not), and the diuretics to fix some imbalance that could be the result of doping itself (or perhaps something legal). The insulin I understand as the rapid carb uptake makes sense as well as to counter the deficit growth hormones may cause. The diuretics, I am still not to sure on, but perhaps it really isn't used commonly anyway.
 

Felt_Rider

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cadence230 said:
Such as to get rid of excess sodium and helping with kidney health? Mike
That is true for a person that has a medical condition of hypertension and is prescribed diuretics by their physician.

Using a prescription medication to adjust electrolyte levels is a risky business. How does one know what their electrolytes levels are unless there are constant tests being made? Terry Schivo who was recently allowed to die spent many years in a coma and there was a paper written that she went into cardiac arrest potentially from an imbalance of sodium/potassium levels as a result of an eating disorder. Whether an eating disorder or taking medication without the guidance of a physician for testing and evaluation of chronic hypertension using presciption strength diuretics to beat a drug test or for some other training purpose is not a good thing. There are so many other facets of training one can work on to improve over taking that kind of risk.

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8271/8014/417685.html

ECA (ephedrine, caffiene, asprin) can also throw these levels out of balance and combined with exercise the damage can range from strained muscles to cardiac arrest.
 

Felt_Rider

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wilmar13 said:
Well thanks for the replies. I guess the Insulin is only for rapid recovery (whether used in conjunction with growth hormones or not), and the diuretics to fix some imbalance that could be the result of doping itself (or perhaps something legal). The insulin I understand as the rapid carb uptake makes sense as well as to counter the deficit growth hormones may cause. The diuretics, I am still not to sure on, but perhaps it really isn't used commonly anyway.
Just remember that there are many who are using growth with results without taking the additional risk of using insulin. Insulin is not always necessary to use in conjunction to growth hormone. A person just has to adjust their diet to keep natural level consistent.
 

cadence230

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How much weight might one stand to loose on a diuretic? If it were lbs. there might lie the advantage of ridding the body of excess subcutaneous fluids.
 

Felt_Rider

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cadence230 said:
How much weight might one stand to loose on a diuretic? If it were lbs. there might lie the advantage of ridding the body of excess subcutaneous fluids.
You have brought up a very valid point that I didn't want to mention until someone else bought it up.

Being that I have been in sports training and admitted to have formerly involved on the chemical side I will say that there are many guys and girls who use drugs because they are lazy.

There are some who are on a crusade to claim that all athletes who use drugs are lazy, but that is not true. I used drugs to so that I could train harder and get it away with abnormally intense workouts, but most that I have met want to use drugs purely because they are lazy.

I can imagine many are using drugs because their lifestyle is loose, their training in the off season is undisciplined and in order to play catch up they have to use drugs to shorten the gap.

The amount of weight a person could lose from a diuretic would vary depending on a number of factors. Too many to list, but I would say on average a person could dump anywhere from 5 to 10+ lbs. of water weight in one day. Perhaps more and go into a real danger zone. However, there is possibility for loss of performance rather than a gain in performance from being lighter and dehydrated.

Those type of people that use drugs in that manner I have little respect for them. Just as I am sure that many have little respect for me because I used drugs under a very disciplined and intense training regime. I can understand their disdain for me as well.
 

wilmar13

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cadence230 said:
How much weight might one stand to loose on a diuretic? If it were lbs. there might lie the advantage of ridding the body of excess subcutaneous fluids.

In cycling???

Not speaking for anyone else, my BW can change by more than 12lbs depending on hydration levels (about 6%). This is only 1.5 gallons of water. But I try to top off before heading out to minimize the amount I will need to add while riding (to buy less, go farther without stopping, etc.).
 

spanner

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With regards insulin, here is what I found on Runsweet.com

"The use of pharmacological agents to promote performance has unfortunately been widespread in the past. To protect the health of athletes, and the integrity of sport, elaborate regulation and testing has developed. The World Anti-doping Agency sets out the regulations for the use and prohibition of pharmacological agents in world sport in 2003. This document, The Code, states that athletes are able to request medical exemption with appropriate documentation to use banned substances (Article 4.4). Because of the illicit use of insulin by some athletes (particularly weight lifters and wrestlers), insulin is on the list of prohibited substance (2005). Any athlete with diabetes who wishes to enter competitive sport events subject to The Code, or organizations who follow its regulation, will need appropriate documentation which outline the diagnosis of diabetes and its treatment. Regulators are likely to be suspicious of any significant alteration in therapy prior to major events, and are likely to require assurance from the attending physician that any change is for therapeutic reason."
 

Flyer

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Felt_Rider said:
I see no purpose in using diuretics in cycling at all.
That just doesn't make sense to me.

In other sports diuretics were used for a few reasons, but each person reacts different to drugs. Some have not tolerated diuretics or either used them improperly and have died. Just as some people have not tolerated caffiene and ephendrine mix and have died on their first use.

The two reasons that I know for using diuretics are to make a weight class limits and to help remove subcutaneous water that is a side effect from too much water retention from androgen use. Many bodybuilders could be at a very low bodyfat percentage, but holding water in the skin could obscure definition. I have seen guys not only risk bodily harm by using diruretics, but the result from using the diuretic actually hurt their placing because it will remove total body water not just subcutaneous and therefore they actually looked like **** during the competition.

I would not take a chance using diuretics for any sport, but that's just my opinion.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Feltski

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Nov 29, 2006
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wilmar13 said:
Insulin: Flyer has quoted others as saying "it is anabolic as hell" and that it speeds recovery and nutrition. But from what I know of Diabetes, there is nothing to be gained by taking too much insulin (results in low blood sugar)

Diuretics: What do you gain here? I mean this is always given as a bad thing with advice to amateur cyclists (caffeine, alcohol, etc.). What are they, how do they work, and what is the reason you use them?

Thanks!
There is nothing to be gained from taking to much insulin, but there is however everything to lose, especially as a cyclist or any other endurance athlete (or really living human being for that matter). As you likely know, insulin acts to decrease the level of glucose in your blood. I think these days 80-110mg/dl is considered standard. By taking too much insulin, your blood glucose levels can drop to dangerous levels (ie 40-50mg/dl) where brain function is impaired/disabled. I dont know where you heard that taking insulin is a good idea, but I HIGHLY recommend against it. *edit* maybe it could be useful after carbo loading, but even then, its dangerous as hell unless you know exactly how much you ate and what dosage is needed.. its much easier to lower your blood glucose level than to raise it *edit*

As far as diuretics, I have heard of taking them to lose weight (again, a bad idea) but have never heard of it being used as a performance enhancer. Once you get dehydrated, electrolyte imbalance sets in. Theres a reason gatorade has sodium and potassium (among other electrolytes) in it and not hydrochlorothiazide
 

alienator

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There is a range over which you can use exogenous insulin, and the pancreas will respond by decreasing its output. In fact this is done quite frequently with pancreas transplant patients. A transplanted pancreas can and often will start producing insulin as soon as it's transplanted; however, the transplant surgeons like that new pancreas to rest, so the patient is given IV and/or sub-q insulin at a level which causes minimal inulin from the new organ. This is all done, of course, under the supervision of medical staff and very frequent blood sugar monitoring.

It's patently stupid for non-diabetics, athletes, to use insulin. There are no exact guidelines by which to administer the drug: everyone's response to insulin and specific insulin dosing is different. Moreover, that response can vary throught the day and vary with physical state, i.e. dehydration, fatigue, exertion, illness (known or unknown), food intake and types of food consumed, and so on. Even for diabetics that have been diabetics for years (I'm talking about Type I diabetics, i.e. people with IDDM) can't rely on a consistent response to their insulin when on the bike. Ask the diabetics on Team Type I (who, by the way are great examples to other diabetics and show that living with the disease isn't impossible), and I doubt you'll find a single one that tries to titrate their insulin to give an exact 80mg/dl serum glucose level. Hypoglycemic events are zero fun and can be pretty fucking terrifying.

Doping with insulin is just asking to be booted out of the gene pool.
 

Feltski

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Nov 29, 2006
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alienator said:
Hypoglycemic events are zero fun and can be pretty fucking terrifying.

Doping with insulin is just asking to be booted out of the gene pool.
ha 2 of the best points
 

Flyer

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Felt_Rider said:
He is correct that insulin (a powerful hormone) is considered anabolic, but in limited situations.

Personally, I make every effort to control my insulin through natural nutrition. I do not want or desire high insulin spikes.

Most of what I know about insulin use is in conjunction with HGH. I do not know the benefit of using insulin without using HGH. As far as I know in my simplistic knowlege of HGH is that insulin helps intensify the effects of HGH.

Retry a Google search HGH IGF-1

I added a few links that may give more insight.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7950906&dopt=Abstract

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/planet15.htm

http://www.muscleenhancers.com/steroid-bible/hgh.htm
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