Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by meb, May 31, 2007.

  1. meb

    meb New Member

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    Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims too).

    I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?

    Thanks
     
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  2. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    meb wrote:
    > Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
    > this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
    > non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
    > with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
    > trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
    > have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
    > too).
    >
    > I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
    > occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
    > shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
    > disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
    > trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
    > unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
    > in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >

    shimano-style freehubs don't break axles because both bearings are
    mounted outboard, not with one inboard like on freewheel hubs. make the
    change and you won't break any more axles.
     
  3. Troll Report

    Troll Report Guest

    On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:04:52 +1000, meb wrote:

    > Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
    > this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
    > non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
    > with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
    > trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
    > have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
    > too).
    >
    > I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
    > occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
    > shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
    > disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
    > trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
    > unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
    > in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
    >
    > Thanks



    Any reason going to solid axle and going to 8 speeds are linked? It's easy
    to change axles. Anyway maybe keep saving thouse 8 speed freewheels for
    those special causes cause you may need a different chain and crank to make
    it work good on the commuter.

    About all the broken QR's... that may be because your frame has misaligned
    dropouts. It's cheap to get them aligned, then you may find you have no
    more problems with hollow axles.
     
  4. meb

    meb New Member

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    The only linkage was that the relative robustness of the solid axle allowed me a chance to consider, at a time I was putting on a new freewheel, the extra gears of an 8 speed freewheel that I wouldn't have dared try with a QR.

    Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I can't rule that out.
     
  5. philcycles

    philcycles Guest

    meb wrote:

    > Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    > factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently being
    > misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight
    > misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of bent
    > dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed spoke
    > protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the frame
    > in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike that
    > had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent
    > trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was
    > substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
    > Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than at
    > the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs between
    > bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a significant
    > issue though I can't rule that out.--
    > meb


    Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
    Phil Brown
     
  6. "philcycles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
    > Phil Brown
    >


    Phil,
    what rear axles do you use on your Campy Record Hubs?
    -tom
     
  7. "philcycles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
    > Phil Brown
    >


    After thinking more about broken axles, I was wondering if the dropouts
    have something to do with it. I have the adjustable Campagnolo 1010 long
    horizontal dropouts. Wondering if a fixed vertical dropout would be more
    of a secured method against axel breakage and fatigue for those older
    Campy Record hubs?
    -tom
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    meb wrote:
    > Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
    > this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
    > non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
    > with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
    > trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
    > have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
    > too).
    >
    > I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
    > occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
    > shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
    > disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
    > trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
    > unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
    > in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?


    Yes, but why not?
    If your setup works with seven, add enough right side spacing for an 8
    and write back with your results.
    You'll increase unsupported right side axle length and increase right
    side spoke tension both to either an acceptable or unacceptable extent.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  9. the frame ridden here is an old raleigh-ibusu. we evolved from steel
    rims/freewheel under hd touring commuting. Solid Wheels Mfg axles
    cured the apparently designed in freewheel axle bending problem.
    Frankly, travel from a to b with 30 pounds on the rack at 165 rider
    weight withou bending the hollow freewhel axle is doubtful without
    bending the axle. Several times I rebuilt then went up the street to
    wal, bending the rig on the way home after great care not too: and was
    consumed with the urge to take an ax to it.
    Wheels plus a shimano deore freehib is the way togo. A loooooong
    Wheels axle allows sloppy work and the opportunity to attach a mortar
    or RPG launcher. Wheels metal is strong yet amlleable, simply bent
    back to straight straight 360 if bent on the freewheel.
     
  10. Tom Nakashima writes:

    >> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    >> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    >> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    >> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    >> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.


    > After thinking more about broken axles, I was wondering if the
    > dropouts have something to do with it. I have the adjustable
    > Campagnolo 1010 long horizontal dropouts. Wondering if a fixed
    > vertical dropout would be more of a secured method against axle
    > breakage and fatigue for those older Campy Record hubs? -tom


    Not to worry, I've had four "vertical" dropout failures and augured
    faces on both horizontal and vertical dropouts. Broken and flexing
    axles is what breaks dropouts.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  11. meb

    meb New Member

    Joined:
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    What causes the dropouts to drop out of parrallellism?
    FWI worth, my failures have all been horizontal dropouts, 120,124, & 126 mm widths.
     
  12. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    >> meb wrote:
    >>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    >>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently

    >> being
    >>> misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight
    >>> misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of

    >> bent
    >>> dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed

    >> spoke
    >>> protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the

    >> frame
    >>> in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike

    >> that
    >>> had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent
    >>> trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was
    >>> substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
    >>> Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than

    >> at
    >>> the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs

    >> between
    >>> bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a

    >> significant
    >>> issue though I can't rule that out.--



    > philcycles Wrote:
    >> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    >> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    >> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    >> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    >> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.


    meb wrote:
    > What causes the dropouts to drop out of parrallellism?

    -snip-

    Broken axle primarily. Poor QC at build occasionally.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  13. meb who? writes:

    >>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    >>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
    >>> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
    >>> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
    >>> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
    >>> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
    >>> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to
    >>> laterally escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure
    >>> whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an
    >>> extensive period when another freewheel rear was substituted even
    >>> though no dropout alignment checks were performed. Failures on
    >>> the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than at the
    >>> dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs
    >>> between bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not
    >>> a significant issue though I can't rule that out.--


    >> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    >> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.


    Bent and broken dropouts are always caused by flexing and broken
    axles, typical of which are old Campagnolo Record hubs that were
    designed for four speeds and have many more to increase overhang.
    They break at the nose of the right cone, the transition from threaded
    axle to solid steel cone and spacers of larger diameter... the place
    of maximum bending moment from chain pull.

    >> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    >> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    >> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
    >> Phil Brown


    > What causes the dropouts to drop out of parallelism? FWI worth, my
    > failures have all been horizontal dropouts, 120,124, & 126 mm
    > widths.


    Broken axles!

    Jobst Brandt
     
  14. philcycles

    philcycles Guest

    Tom Nakashima wrote:

    > Phil,
    > what rear axles do you use on your Campy Record Hubs?
    > -tom


    Wheels Mfg.
    Phil Brown
     
  15. meb wrote:
    >
    > I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
    > occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
    > shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
    > disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
    > trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
    > unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
    > in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?


    I went through this years ago. I first re-spaced my old hubs to 130,
    and got 7, then 8-speed freewheels. Started breaking axles. Funny, I
    never did that when I weighed 140lbs and had 5-speed. I'm sure it was
    the extra cogs.....

    Anyway, a solid axle did not help. Not only did they still break, but
    with Q/R axles at least the skewer would hold things more or less
    together until I got home.

    Go for the freehubs.


    --

    David L. Johnson

    Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
    enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
    reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
    proven this not to be the case.
     
  16. datakoll

    datakoll Guest

  17. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    datakoll wrote:
    > wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    >
    > http://www.philwood.com/
    >

    lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
     
  18. datakoll

    datakoll Guest

  19. Phil Brown writes:

    >> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    >> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
    >> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
    >> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
    >> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
    >> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
    >> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
    >> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
    >> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
    >> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
    >> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
    >> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
    >> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
    >> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
    >> can't rule that out.


    > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.


    I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
    rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
    cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
    unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
    around here.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  20. On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    > datakoll wrote:
    > > wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:

    >
    > >http://www.philwood.com/

    >
    > lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.


    Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
     
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