Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by meb, May 31, 2007.

  1. philcycles

    philcycles Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Phil Brown writes:
    >
    > >> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    > >> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
    > >> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
    > >> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
    > >> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
    > >> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
    > >> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
    > >> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
    > >> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
    > >> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
    > >> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
    > >> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
    > >> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
    > >> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
    > >> can't rule that out.

    >
    > > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    > > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    > > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    > > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    > > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.

    >
    > I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
    > rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
    > cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
    > unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
    > around here.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt


    While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
    spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
    Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
    riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
    all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
    Phil Brown
     


  2. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    philcycles wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >> Phil Brown writes:
    >>
    >>>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    >>>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
    >>>> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
    >>>> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
    >>>> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
    >>>> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
    >>>> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
    >>>> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
    >>>> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
    >>>> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
    >>>> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
    >>>> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
    >>>> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
    >>>> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
    >>>> can't rule that out.
    >>> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    >>> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    >>> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    >>> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    >>> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.

    >> I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
    >> rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
    >> cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
    >> unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
    >> around here.
    >>
    >> Jobst Brandt

    >
    > While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
    > spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
    > Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
    > riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
    > all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
    > Phil Brown
    >

    my experience is similar in that i used to bend freewheel hub axles all
    the time until i switched to campy hubs. never had a problem after
    that. never experienced a fatigue failure with campy hubs either.

    returning to design, while jobst is correct that an inboard bearing is
    not the best idea, it's not the whole story. consider that bending a
    beam with rigidly held ends is not the same as bending a beam with free
    ends - there is less deflection. less deflection means less fatigue.
    if jobst had a stiffer frame, he's likely see a good deal fewer
    breakages of both axles and dropouts too.
     
  3. On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:43:56 -0700, philcycles <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >[email protected] wrote:
    >> Phil Brown writes:
    >>
    >> >> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
    >> >> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
    >> >> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
    >> >> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
    >> >> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
    >> >> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
    >> >> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
    >> >> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
    >> >> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
    >> >> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
    >> >> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
    >> >> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
    >> >> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
    >> >> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
    >> >> can't rule that out.

    >>
    >> > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
    >> > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
    >> > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
    >> > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
    >> > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.

    >>
    >> I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
    >> rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
    >> cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
    >> unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
    >> around here.
    >>
    >> Jobst Brandt

    >
    >While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
    >spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
    >Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
    >riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
    >all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
    >Phil Brown


    Dear Phil,

    I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.

    :)

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel
     
  4. still me

    still me Guest

    On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:01:57 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >Dear Phil,
    >
    >I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
    >
    > :)


    Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
     
  5. someone writes:

    >> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.


    > Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!


    Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right dropouts.
    It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the rider.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  6. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > someone writes:
    >
    >>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.

    >
    >> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!

    >
    > Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right dropouts.


    excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of this
    i just gotta see!


    > It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the rider.


    what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and load
    cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more cycles, it will
    dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the candidate for axle
    breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt you've done testing with
    axles what always orient the same each time they're refitted. if you
    had, you'd be able to tell which was dominant based on fatigue
    initiation point.
     
  7. http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:

    >>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.


    >>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!


    >> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right

    dropouts.

    > excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of
    > this i just gotta see!


    You're not excused. Fatigue occurs at a stress level not achieved by
    bumps in the road and chain pull is in the millions of cycles that are
    greater than road bumps. Dropout failures show that the flexing is
    fore and aft not up and down as road shocks are.

    >> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the
    >> rider.


    > what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and
    > load cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more
    > cycles, it will dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the
    > candidate for axle breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt
    > you've done testing with axles what always orient the same each time
    > they're refitted. if you had, you'd be able to tell which was
    > dominant based on fatigue initiation point.


    Oh get off it. You aren't making any points with your "former
    metallurgist" jargon. I work closely with a frame builder who repairs
    many broken dropouts and I have a large collection of broken rear
    Campagnolo axles. If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
    axles break. You should know the relationship between bending stress
    and hollow axle diameters. Where's your experience in this.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  8. R Brickston

    R Brickston Guest

    On 11 Jun 2007 06:37:02 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:
    >
    >>>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.

    >
    >>>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!

    >
    >>> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right

    >dropouts.
    >
    >> excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of
    >> this i just gotta see!

    >
    >You're not excused. Fatigue occurs at a stress level not achieved by
    >bumps in the road and chain pull is in the millions of cycles that are
    >greater than road bumps. Dropout failures show that the flexing is
    >fore and aft not up and down as road shocks are.
    >
    >>> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the
    >>> rider.

    >
    >> what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and
    >> load cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more
    >> cycles, it will dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the
    >> candidate for axle breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt
    >> you've done testing with axles what always orient the same each time
    >> they're refitted. if you had, you'd be able to tell which was
    >> dominant based on fatigue initiation point.

    >
    >Oh get off it. You aren't making any points with your "former
    >metallurgist" jargon. I work closely with a frame builder who repairs
    >many broken dropouts and I have a large collection of broken rear
    >Campagnolo axles. If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
    >axles break. You should know the relationship between bending stress
    >and hollow axle diameters. Where's your experience in this.
    >
    >Jobst Brandt


    In the anodizing tank?
     
  9. Sandy

    Sandy Guest


  10. > On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:43:56 -0700, philcycles <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    > BTW I weigh 220, ride
    > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break


    >> I've been riding 130
    >>spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
    >>Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my >>normal
    >>riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing >>requiring all
    >>the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
    >>Phil Brown


    Phil, you still didn't say what 130mm axle you are using for your older
    Campagnolo Record rear hubs. I would like to purchase qty: 2 of those axles
    from you.

    I also still wondering if vertical dropouts are the key to NOT braking
    rear axles over the Campagnolo 1010b horizontal dropouts?
    http://www.cccycles.com/drop-out.html
    -tom
     
  11. still me

    still me Guest

    On 11 Jun 2007 06:37:02 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
    >axles break.


    Same reason I never get flat spots in any front rims - when going over
    a bump, the load is disproportionatly placed more exclusively on the
    rear wheel and axle.
     
  12. wizardB

    wizardB Guest

    Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> datakoll wrote:
    >>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    >>> http://www.philwood.com/

    >> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.

    >
    > Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
    >

    Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
    about your hubs/axles.
     
  13. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    wizardB wrote:
    > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    >> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> datakoll wrote:
    >>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    >>>> http://www.philwood.com/
    >>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.

    >>
    >> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
    >>

    > Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
    > about your hubs/axles.


    except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show for
    a several-hundred dollar hub.
     
  14. On Jun 17, 5:08 pm, wizardB <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    > > On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> datakoll wrote:
    > >>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    > >>>http://www.philwood.com/
    > >> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.

    >
    > > Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!

    >
    > Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
    > about your hubs/axles.


    "Chris King", shorthand for "over-priced and over-hyped"!
     
  15. wizardB

    wizardB Guest

    jim beam wrote:
    > wizardB wrote:
    >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    >>> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> datakoll wrote:
    >>>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    >>>>> http://www.philwood.com/
    >>>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
    >>>
    >>> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
    >>>

    >> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of
    >> worrying about your hubs/axles.

    >
    > except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show for
    > a several-hundred dollar hub.

    There absolutely no damage to my free hub body and my hubs see lots of
    miles and nasty terrain I think the crap about their free hub bodies
    come from people using cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances.
     
  16. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    wizardB wrote:
    > jim beam wrote:
    >> wizardB wrote:
    >>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
    >>>> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>> datakoll wrote:
    >>>>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
    >>>>>> http://www.philwood.com/
    >>>>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
    >>>>
    >>>> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
    >>>>
    >>> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of
    >>> worrying about your hubs/axles.

    >>
    >> except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show
    >> for a several-hundred dollar hub.

    > There absolutely no damage to my free hub body and my hubs see lots of
    > miles and nasty terrain I think the crap about their free hub bodies
    > come from people using cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances.


    i don't call xtr "cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances". but
    they mangle a ck hub just great. there's a reason shimano don't use
    aluminum for their shallow spline freehub bodies. ck never figured out why.
     
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