electrolyte/rehydradion problems - (slightly OT)

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Chris Crawford, May 29, 2003.

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  1. As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours, often with cytomax, and ditto after the rides, but come 6
    hours later or especially the next morning I seem to be very dehydrated. It's as if the liquids
    can't really be absorbed that quickly and they just pass through me without getting into my cells or
    wherever they need to be.

    My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    found a good solution.

    Thanks in advance

    Chris
     
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  2. Doug Huffman

    Doug Huffman Guest

    If your output equals your high input then I don't see how you can be concerned with dehydration.

    What is causing you to think that you are dehydrated later? If you are performing at the levels you
    consider high normal without deleterious effects - cramping - why question your electrolyte balance?

    I ride 2 -3 hours daily and my biggest problem is riding past a tree or porta-potty.

    "Chris Crawford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    > and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours, often with cytomax, and ditto after the rides, but come 6
    > hours later or especially the next morning I seem to be very dehydrated. It's as if the liquids
    > can't really be absorbed that quickly and they just pass through me without getting into my cells
    > or wherever they need to be.
    >
    > My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    > into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    > athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    > found a good solution.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    >
    > Chris
     
  3. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Chris Crawford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    > and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours,
    >
    > My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    > into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    > athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    > found a good solution.

    I think the current science says that you're unlikely to have electrolyte depletion in that short a
    time. I do take salt capsules, but only on ultra-rides, after 12-14 hr in hot conditions. It takes
    that long to run through my reserves.
     
  4. If you're pee-ing regularly, it's not a dark color, indicating your body is hoarding water, and
    you're experiencing no sudden, significant weight loss, you're probably OK. I'm usually thirsty
    after a hard ride too. but it's usually for something sweet, so it may be just my body's way of
    trying to continue refuelling.

    If it's a sweaty ride, I will take a few electrolyte tablets (Potassium, magnesium, calcium, zinc,
    and vitamin C to aid absorption) when I stop for lunch.

    Most energy drinks have a pretty good balance of elect's

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  5. Ian S

    Ian S Guest

    "Chris Crawford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    > and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours, often with cytomax, and ditto after the rides, but come 6
    > hours later or especially the next morning I seem to be very dehydrated. It's as if the liquids
    > can't really be absorbed that quickly and they just pass through me without getting into my cells
    > or wherever they need to be.
    >
    > My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    > into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    > athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    > found a good solution.

    If you are otherwise in good health, you shouldn't really need salt pills after 2-4 hours especially
    if you're already using cytomax. You could try snacking on pretzels during and after the ride as an
    alternative to salt pills. You might also want to continue a higher than normal intake of fluids for
    an extended period of 4 or 5 hours after the ride as your body readjusts. Here in Phoenix, I find
    that even if I drink a lot during a hot ride more than 2 hours in length, I hardly pee at all -
    maybe once every 2 to 3 hours.
     
  6. "Ian S" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > If you are otherwise in good health, you shouldn't really need salt pills after 2-4 hours
    > especially if you're already using cytomax. You could try snacking on pretzels during and after
    > the ride as an alternative to salt pills.

    Why tell the guy not to use salt pills but to eat pretzels? What's the difference in terms of
    his problem?

    JT

    --
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    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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  7. Chris Crawford <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    > into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    > athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    > found a good solution.

    I'm not sure if that is your problem. As it was explained to me there is a maximum rate at which you
    can absorb water which is on the average 1.8 pints/hour; if you drink more than that it will just
    sit in your gut. If you are drinking more than 1 quart/hour than the extra liquid isn't doing you
    any good. If you are sweating more than a quart/hour you will become dehydrated in the sort run no
    matter how much you drink. On extremely hot days I prehydrate well before the ride by sipping on a
    water bottle while getting ready to ride. If I suspect that I'm sweating so profusely that I'm not
    keeping up with my hydration I stop somewhere and sit in the shade to give my body time to catch up.
    At the last Hotter-n-Hell Hundred I rode the temperature hit 107F. I used the same strategy here and
    I finished the ride while I saw plenty of far more fit cyclists sidelined with IV's in their arms.

    Bruce
    --
    Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company
     
  8. Ian S

    Ian S Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Ian S" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > If you are otherwise in good health, you shouldn't really need salt pills after 2-4 hours
    > > especially if you're already using cytomax. You could try snacking on pretzels during and after
    > > the ride as an alternative to salt pills.
    >
    > Why tell the guy not to use salt pills but to eat pretzels? What's the difference in terms of his
    > problem?

    It's easier to regulate your salt intake with something like pretzels: a typical salt pill contains
    I believe 1 gm or 1000 mg of salt. Half a dozen pretzel sticks would contain less than 1/10th that
    amount. Salt pills reportedly can make you sick. Apart from a certain politician, I haven't heard of
    pretzels doing any harm.
     
  9. Chris Crawford <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    > and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours, often with cytomax, and ditto after the rides, but come 6
    > hours later or especially the next morning I seem to be very dehydrated. It's as if the liquids
    > can't really be absorbed that quickly and they just pass through me without getting into my cells
    > or wherever they need to be.
    >
    > My suspicion is that there is some kind of electrolyte balance I need to observe to get the water
    > into my system, and water (with or without cytomax) is not doing it. I know some endurance
    > athletes take salt pills or similar. I was wondering is anyone has this experience and may have
    > found a good solution.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    >
    > Chris

    Most people would not have significant problem with electrolyte loss in a 2-4 hour ride. However,
    everyone is different. A couple things I can tell you is that Cytomax is not going to replace all
    the sodium that you lose. If it did, the stuff would taste so bad no one would drink it. Also, if
    you are taking asperin or tylenol (sp?) they will prevent the cells in your body from absorbing
    water. Alcohol also does, although to a lesser extent.

    You can try taking salt to see if it makes a difference. On ultra-marathon events I make it a habit
    to place a packet of table salt on my tongue (I find it helps more than salt pills) every 70-80
    miles. I haven't needed it on shorter rides (< 150 miles or so).

    Hope this helps, Tom
     
  10. Richard

    Richard Guest

    If, on a ride of 4+ hr you're whizzing out a very dilute liquid, or you're drinking lots and getting
    cramps, it sounds like hyponatremia. I've found HammerGel's Endurolytes (1-2/hr) do wonders for me!

    Chris Crawford <[email protected]> wrote in news:3ED61CC0.10402 @idcomm.com:

    > As the hot, dry weather hits CO, I'm faced with my perennial problem of staying hydrated. I drink
    > and pee a lot during rides of 2-4 hours, often with cytomax, and ditto after the rides, but come 6
    > hours later or especially the next morning I seem to be very dehydrated. It's as if the liquids
    > can't really be absorbed that quickly and they just pass through me without getting into my cells
    > or wherever they need to be.
     
  11. Ian S

    Ian S Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Ian S" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > It's easier to regulate your salt intake with something like pretzels:
    >
    > I doubt that. If someone buys a package of salt pills it's easy to carry in their race kit or keep
    > at home, so the amount they ingest is repeatable, so they know how much salt they're getting. Not
    > so with pretzels unless they either take care to eat the same amount of the same brand, or do the
    > math with varying amounts and varying brands. Not to mention the salt rubbing off the pretzels!

    Well, you may be able to adjust your salt intake precisely with tablets but only in gross increments
    of hundreds of milligrams. With the standard 2 1/4" pretzel stick you get about 15 mg of salt so you
    have a much finer scale of adjustment. That said, there's no real viable way of knowing how much you
    should be ingesting during a ride.
    >
    > But I'm not convinced that an excess amount of salt is likely to be a problem for this guy, or
    > most people, if used only for special events or special hot rides.

    Frankly, I really don't think salt is his problem. I'm not sure what is. If he's peeing a lot during
    a ride maybe he's getting too much water. I know I don't pee very much on longer rides here in the
    Arizona desert. I see they are now advising against drinking too much water when exercising - the
    old rule of drinking before you get thirsty may no longer be valid.
    >
    > > typical salt pill contains I believe 1 gm or 1000 mg of salt. Half a dozen pretzel sticks would
    > > contain less than
    > > 1/10th that amount.
    >
    > The salt pills I've used contain 300mg each in one case and much less in another (150mg I think --
    > I don't have a packet handy). The larger ones are easily broken in half. I've never had a problem
    > with a whole pill though. Ah, I notice in a catalog a third brand which has 344mg per pill.
    >
    > Plus many also have other useful minterals such as magnesium and calcium.

    Well, he's already taking Cytomax which supposedly has useful minerals too.
    >
    > > Salt pills reportedly can make you sick.
    >
    > What reports? Are salt pills, used as directed in conditions that warrant them, likely to make
    > you sick?

    http://pages.prodigy.net/paulbunyan/health.htm http://www.terrybozzio.com/zappa/bongo.html

    Not to mention that warm salt water can be an effective emetic.
    http://www.slider.com/enc/17000/emetic.htm Salt pills + warm drinking water
    = barf? I don't know but I suppose it's feasible under some circumstances.
    >
    > JT
    >
    > --
    > *******************************************
    > NB: reply-to address is munged
    >
    > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    > *******************************************
     
  12. "Ian S" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Ian S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > Salt pills reportedly can make you sick.
    > >
    > > What reports? Are salt pills, used as directed in conditions that warrant them, likely to make
    > > you sick?
    >
    > http://pages.prodigy.net/paulbunyan/health.htm http://www.terrybozzio.com/zappa/bongo.html

    LOL. Yeah, I guess those are "reports".....are they normal sources of training and nutritin
    information for you or just the first results that come up in a web search of "salt pills" and
    "sick"? Oh I see, the first example is the second result from Google....
    http://www.google.com/search?q=%22salt+pills%22+sick&sourceid=opera&num=0

    It's one thing to tell personal experience or anecdotes in this group, but it's quite another to pay
    attention to really vague ones from other people. Like at the first site "It has happened to me once
    and trust me it isn't fun." _Once_?

    And in the second case some musician says "The crowds & shows were wonderful (except when a stupid
    road manager suggested I take salt pills because I was sweating so much-and i got sick and had to
    play with bad stomach cramps) (note to self: NEVER TAKE SALT PILLS!!)"

    Yeah, those are reports....

    > Not to mention that warm salt water can be an effective emetic.
    > http://www.slider.com/enc/17000/emetic.htm Salt pills + warm
    drinking water
    > = barf? I don't know but I suppose it's feasible under some
    circumstances.

    According to this site, warm salt water can be an emetic in _copious_ quantities. I know orange
    juice can make me sick too in copious quantities too. Guess we'd better avoid that.

    JT

    --
    *******************************************
    NB: reply-to address is munged

    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    *******************************************
     
  13. Ian S

    Ian S Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > According to this site, warm salt water can be an emetic in _copious_ quantities. I know orange
    > juice can make me sick too in copious quantities too. Guess we'd better avoid that.
    >

    Hey, you like your salt pills. Fine, enjoy! I'll stick to pretzels which have the added advantage of
    serving as a good excuse for having a couple of beers after a long hot ride.
     
  14. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    lotta hi-tech foods here. somthing wud work? humans drink water. yeah but CO people have hard
    winters and harder summers: the physical activity between one season and other may not mesh in
    chemical balance that is your bod isn't able to conduct summer's activity on winter's physical
    regimine? I came to SWFLA from the NE. Walk around in the snow barefoot and barbecue chicken at 10.
    But the skin ac, for example, wasn't up to doing the job at 95 running down the beach for ten miles
    until i ran down the beach for ten months. The water? drink 2-3 gallons a day.wether cycling those
    days or not. following the prior logic. Pre pre hydrate. Salt? get a heart monitor and check the
    rates with salt and less salt(and the morning after before getting outa bed)salt increases heart
    rates among some and there may be a point of diminishing returns here? One wud think that alll
    advanced sp[orts drinks supply the basic fluid nutrients or they'd die on the shelf real quick. Like
    gatorade does the job and the stuff probably cost GA .07 a bottle to produce.

    My metabolism is very stable genetically and nutritionaly given a constant everyday diet due to an
    IBS condition. What I came up with on an evryday 30 mile ride was:
    1)Gatorade alone powered a 15 mph/15 mile ride home but left me at a pre tired almost bonk edge(rise
    in heart rate, hypoglycemic, cooling skin) with no power left after dinner. A quart b4 leaving
    does give a 100% improvement over nothing at all cept some grits that despite the pure food
    content can't digest fast enough.
    2)Gatorade plus grits did the same but less tired and no loss of power after dinner.
    3)Power bar alone gets me back but without surplus energy at the end(digesting grits)
    4)Gatorade plus grits(that's what I get to eat) plus power bar removes the tired and leaves any
    thought of bonk behind with enough power left to do an interval before home.
    5)Sobe plus grits plus powerbar( or maybe two with munch along the way) iza bend the cranks
    alternative state of consciuosness that reduces subjective time to 75% of condition 1). this is
    not champagne time and this sobe stuff should be used sparingly(otherwise it's no fun as alotofit
    is an assumed new psychological condition that no does not lend itself to selling toyota or
    flying AF)
    6)all of the above individually plus a munched musketeers give a significant increase over no M3. a
    M3 alone gets one back with the effects of 1) but flatter.

    I don't eat any salt at all but i watch the urine color and quantity and adjust the 2 gallons a day
    upward accordinglee. I get up at 3am and drink a tall glass in the summer's heat.was 91 this
    morning. If you approach your intake(and read a textbook on nutrition that may solve the problem)and
    can quantify the intake/output like what preceded here then a coach at 15K may be unnecessary
     
  15. Thank you - I'm glad to hear they let prison inmates with budding literary careers access the
    newsgroups.

    Regards Chris

    g.daniels wrote:
    > lotta hi-tech foods here. somthing wud work? humans drink water. yeah but CO people have hard
    > winters and harder summers: the physical activity between one season and other may not mesh in
    > chemical balance that is your bod isn't able to conduct summer's activity on winter's physical
    > regimine? I came to SWFLA from the NE. Walk around in the snow barefoot and barbecue chicken at
    > 10. But the skin ac, for example, wasn't up to doing the job at 95 running down the beach for ten
    > miles until i ran down the beach for ten months. The water? drink 2-3 gallons a day.wether cycling
    > those days or not. following the prior logic. Pre pre hydrate. Salt? get a heart monitor and check
    > the rates with salt and less salt(and the morning after before getting outa bed)salt increases
    > heart rates among some and there may be a point of diminishing returns here? One wud think that
    > alll advanced sp[orts drinks supply the basic fluid nutrients or they'd die on the shelf real
    > quick. Like gatorade does the job and the stuff probably cost GA .07 a bottle to produce.
    >
    > My metabolism is very stable genetically and nutritionaly given a constant everyday diet due to an
    > IBS condition. What I came up with on an evryday 30 mile ride was:
    > 1)Gatorade alone powered a 15 mph/15 mile ride home but left me at a pre tired almost bonk
    > edge(rise in heart rate, hypoglycemic, cooling skin) with no power left after dinner. A quart b4
    > leaving does give a 100% improvement over nothing at all cept some grits that despite the pure
    > food content can't digest fast enough.
    > 2)Gatorade plus grits did the same but less tired and no loss of power after dinner.
    > 3)Power bar alone gets me back but without surplus energy at the end(digesting grits)
    > 4)Gatorade plus grits(that's what I get to eat) plus power bar removes the tired and leaves any
    > thought of bonk behind with enough power left to do an interval before home.
    > 5)Sobe plus grits plus powerbar( or maybe two with munch along the way) iza bend the cranks
    > alternative state of consciuosness that reduces subjective time to 75% of condition 1). this is
    > not champagne time and this sobe stuff should be used sparingly(otherwise it's no fun as
    > alotofit is an assumed new psychological condition that no does not lend itself to selling
    > toyota or flying AF)
    > 6)all of the above individually plus a munched musketeers give a significant increase over no M3.
    > a M3 alone gets one back with the effects of 1) but flatter.
    >
    > I don't eat any salt at all but i watch the urine color and quantity and adjust the 2 gallons a
    > day upward accordinglee. I get up at 3am and drink a tall glass in the summer's heat.was 91 this
    > morning. If you approach your intake(and read a textbook on nutrition that may solve the
    > problem)and can quantify the intake/output like what preceded here then a coach at 15K may be
    > unnecessary
     
  16. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    TO CONTINUE: AFTER and during the period when the problem drinker balances the everyday and every
    ride food intake-he can measure how much urine and perspiration/excretion/saliva/mucous output he's
    processing by pissing in a container!! AHHA! Drink 2 gallons a day(no chlorine please) and see what
    comes out. In the cooler months more pee will collect and as the temp goes up the pee goes down in
    an INVERSE RELATIONSHIP!! No %$^#!! INVERSE!! bUT as the pee goes down, the COLOUR DARKENS!!INVERSE
    INVERSE!! NO ^&%$!! Amazing.Science in action. dark piss gives rise to the idea more water intake is
    in oder. So, drink more until the piss lightens up.And diarize the results. write it down. When you
    level off on this, vary the salt intake and see what happens. By this time some understanding of
    where the body is really at develops and then AND ONLY THEN... can one go of to a qualified,
    assuming there is one in your nab,MD. bring the notes. otherwise the MD will have absolutly no idea
    of what you're talking about but be sure YOU WILL BE CHARGED!! The thought does come up that your
    eating too much salt and that's making your body dry? Salt discussions begin coming in about now and
    I expect riders are found laying in droves? on the berm in advanced states of thermia and
    dehydration.I saw one two years ago and thought it curious until I did it running an unplanned
    errand. Cramps, couldn't walk, barfed dry heaves.very unpleasant.and unnecessary.Gatorade and
    Powerbar.as spares. Fig Newtons. Try Tang.
     
  17. Doug Huffman

    Doug Huffman Guest

    Why do you babble "(no chlorine please)?" It wold seem to this lay person that NaCl, vital to life,
    violates your dictum when disassociated/ionized to Na & Cl in H2O. Or is this Cl somehow different?

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > TO CONTINUE: > Drink 2 gallons a day(no chlorine please) and see what
    comes out.
     
  18. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    chlorine may be good for the public's general "good" flowing clean bacteria free H2O 24?7.
    Outasight. Miracles not to be taken for granted. BUT BUT BUT free radicals roaming your system tend
    to blow away cell structures and chlorine as it does reduce bacteria does reduce the mindbuckling
    array of bacteria helping your system in digestion as well as disturb the gall bladder's function.Oh
    yeah, gonna say HCL is in the tummy? yreah but that's apples and grapefruit. I read where the philly
    race went 150 miles in 26 mph? need all the help you can get. Try the NC spring water. I hear the
    Gov. gets to piss in it once a year.
     
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