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Electronic shifting system

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Cycling Equipment
Published
6 August 2007
Last activity
1 September 2007
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  1. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
    clutches"?

    Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.

    en.wikipedia.orgDog (mechanics)

    "some kinds of clutches (including the ones inside an automobile
    transmission) may lock up via the engagement of dogs, rather than only
    through friction. These clutches are called dog clutches and the dogs used
    within them are called clutch dogs."

  2. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
    clutches"?

    Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.

    en.wikipedia.orgDog (mechanics)

    "some kinds of clutches (including the ones inside an automobile
    transmission) may lock up via the engagement of dogs, rather than only
    through friction. These clutches are called dog clutches and the dogs used
    within them are called clutch dogs."

    Awesome. Now Tom, while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
    pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it. But your description
    of the problems that the Mavic system has still doesn't jibe with reality. Oh, and
    how about Bret's quiz?

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  3. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
    pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.

    Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.

    Quoted message said:

    But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
    doesn't jibe with reality.

    Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
    silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?

    How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?

  4. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
    pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.

    Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.

    Quoted message said:

    But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
    doesn't jibe with reality.

    Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
    silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.

    Heh, ignorance never slows you down. You regularly tell people how they should do
    their work (like telling astrophysicists or climate scientists or health policy
    people how they're wrong - or, for that matter, a machinist how the molds for cleats
    are made [1]). Yep, we don't understand anything like you do. Again, your comments
    about why the system doesn't work doesn't match reality.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?

    How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?

    How is that relevant? You were merrily telling him that he didn't know what he was
    talking about and it sure looks like he's stumped you.

    [1] http://tinyurl.com/2f8w7m

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  5. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
    pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.

    Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.

    Quoted message said:

    But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
    doesn't jibe with reality.

    Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
    silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.

    Heh, ignorance never slows you down. You regularly tell people how they
    should do
    their work (like telling astrophysicists or climate scientists or health
    policy
    people how they're wrong - or, for that matter, a machinist how the molds
    for cleats
    are made [1]). Yep, we don't understand anything like you do. Again, your
    comments
    about why the system doesn't work doesn't match reality

    By all means quote me telling astrophysicists of climate scientists how
    they're wrong. And explain to me what a "health policy" person is.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?

    How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?

    How is that relevant?

    Yet somehow a specific question about an FPGA is relevant to me? You are one
    stupid jackass and that's growing more and more obvious.

    Quoted message said:

    You were merrily telling him that he didn't know what he was
    talking about and it sure looks like he's stumped you.

    [1] http://tinyurl.com/2f8w7m

    You are quite funny. Somehow I'm telling you how a mold is make when in fact
    you don't seem to have a clue about real production work yourself. The fact
    that Look cleats had gotten significantly smaller over time wasn't being
    questioned and yet you were arguing that it COULDN'T be the molds. Why it
    MUST have been some sort of outsourcing.

    It would have never occurred to some smartmouth punk that perhaps new molds
    weren't being made from a machined male model but simply by pouring the mold
    material around a production cleat and then cutting it out and hand
    finishing the mold with a dremel like I just watched being done the other
    day.

    Tell me Kveck, do you EVER think about what you're writing or are you simply
    a contrarian incapable of agreeing with anything?

  6. You've reached the stage where you can't demonstrate any better what a
    complete and total jackass you are.

    My guess is that you're one of those "machinists" that we used to stand
    there and watch the NC machine run.

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    You've reached the stage where you can't demonstrate any better what a
    complete and total jackass you are.

    If by "complete and total jackass" you mean "guy who actually knows what he's
    talking about", then yes. Linguistics, however, isn't your strong suit.

    Quoted message said:

    My guess is that you're one of those "machinists" that we used to stand
    there and watch the NC machine run.

    You can't admit that you're wrong. Plain and simple. And your guess about what my
    job entails is wrong. You wouldn't even know where to start or what you were looking
    at, for that matter. [censored], you seem to think that Look isn't smart enough to have CAD
    files or at least drawings of their parts around (in fact, that's exactly what you
    claimed: "The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
    the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
    from"😉 and that they haven't invested in any new mills or lathes since the mid
    sixties ("But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file
    just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual
    numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used
    a paper tape"😉. Yeah, I know, I know, they're French and, therefore, too cheap. Yeah,
    right. By the way, you don't just "plug the CAD file into" the machine. So sorry,
    wrong again!

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  8. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
    wrote:

    You can't admit that you're wrong. Plain and simple. And your guess
    about what my
    job entails is wrong.

    There you have it from Kveck - Look makes their own cleats. They don't sub
    them out to a North African firm.

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
    wrote:

    You can't admit that you're wrong. Plain and simple. And your guess
    about what my job entails is wrong.

    There you have it from Kveck - Look makes their own cleats. They don't sub
    them out to a North African firm.

    Good response. It almost has something to do with what's been said. It's easy to
    tell when you've run out of steam - you go into gibberish mode. Nicely done!

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  10. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:


    There you have it from Kveck - Look makes their own cleats. They don't
    sub
    them out to a North African firm.

    Good response. It almost has something to do with what's been said. It's
    easy to
    tell when you've run out of steam - you go into gibberish mode. Nicely
    done!

    Now you're denying that was your claim?

  11. Trying hard to get out of the corner he's painted himself, Tom Kunich dropped the
    following nugget:

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:


    There you have it from Kveck - Look makes their own cleats. They don't
    sub them out to a North African firm.

    Good response. It almost has something to do with what's been said. It's
    easy to tell when you've run out of steam - you go into gibberish mode. Nicely
    done!

    Now you're denying that was your claim?

    Apparently I have to drop a Nusbomb here.

    In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that thread, your
    argument was predicated on:

    A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of their cleats and
    the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the original cleat model."

    B) Look being too cheap to spend the money to properly make a mold for the cleats
    because Look is a French company.

    C) A completely incorrect concept of how molds for production plastic items like a
    cleat are made or function.

    You stated the first two as fact, not hypotheticals, when you have no way of
    knowing either. The last speaks for itself.

    In that thread, I offered several explanations why the cleats weren't the size
    that you were used to:

    "So if the Look cleats were a bit loose, it would likely be due to molds that were
    out of spec, or variations in cleat material that might shrink more than anticipated,
    or by design."

    And:

    "Possibly (as Bill suggested) they were outsourced to a different vendor. Or
    perhaps differences in material, heating rates prior to injection or pressure of the
    injection (there are a few other variables, but those are the main ones). The ones
    with the teflon inserts would be made from a very different mold, however, as putting
    the two different materials in the same
    finished piece is a two stage process."

    When you emphatically state, "There you have it from Kveck - Look makes their own
    cleats. They don't sub them out to a North African firm" you are speaking gibberish.
    North Africa? Where did that come from? Most bizarre...

    How's that for thread drift?

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  12. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Apparently I have to drop a Nusbomb here.

    In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that thread,
    your
    argument was predicated on:

    A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of their
    cleats and
    the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the original cleat
    model."

    And your ignorance about whether the sources from which they get their
    cleats molded even bother with a CAD file. You get funnier by the minute
    since you don't seem to have a strong connection with the way they do
    business around the world.

    Quoted message said:

    B) Look being too cheap to spend the money to properly make a mold for
    the cleats
    because Look is a French company.

    And of course if you had actually bothered to read what I wrote you'd have
    discovered that I noted that the original molds obviously were correct and
    that later versions became progressively smaller until they rattled around
    in the pedal locking mechanism to the point where other manufacturers made
    replacement cleats that actually cost the same or more than the Look
    version. Of course you're not smart enough to understand what that meant.

    Quoted message said:

    C) A completely incorrect concept of how molds for production plastic
    items like a
    cleat are made or function.

    I hate to break this to you but I've run enough projects that reqiured molds
    and have had many components made from injection molds. But then you
    machinists seem to know how to talk a good game without actually knowing
    anything about it.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that thread,
    your argument was predicated on:

    A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of their
    cleats and the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the original
    cleat model."

    And your ignorance about whether the sources from which they get their
    cleats molded even bother with a CAD file. You get funnier by the minute
    since you don't seem to have a strong connection with the way they do
    business around the world.

    Sorry, Tom, but what makes you think they *wouldn't* use a CAD file or drawing?
    Based on your posts, I know that you aren't at all familiar with how machining is
    done. A mold for those cleats (and it would be for several at once, not the one at a
    time style that you seem to envision) is done on CNC equipment or on a EDM machine
    (and the graphite electrode for that would be cut on a CNC mill). If a shop has CNC,
    they will have a CAD/CAM system and, hence, a way to use CAD files. Talk about being
    unfamiliar with how they do business around the world. You think it's all done on
    Lagun manual mills? Funnier by the minute, indeed.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    B) Look being too cheap to spend the money to properly make a mold for
    the cleats because Look is a French company.

    And of course if you had actually bothered to read what I wrote you'd have
    discovered that I noted that the original molds obviously were correct and
    that later versions became progressively smaller until they rattled around
    in the pedal locking mechanism to the point where other manufacturers made
    replacement cleats that actually cost the same or more than the Look
    version. Of course you're not smart enough to understand what that meant.

    How do you know there were "subsequent molds" and they weren't still using the
    originals? Wild Ass Guess - again. That explanation only works based on your
    incorrect assumptions about how molds are made. It's a simple logic issue: if the
    original assumptions are flawed, then everything based around them is going to be
    flawed. And your above commentary doesn't address the issue it was placed after,
    namely your assertions that Look is a company that's unwilling to spend money on
    infrastructure.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    C) A completely incorrect concept of how molds for production plastic
    items like a cleat are made or function.

    I hate to break this to you but I've run enough projects that reqiured molds
    and have had many components made from injection molds. But then you
    machinists seem to know how to talk a good game without actually knowing
    anything about it.

    I hate to break it to you, but since your explanation of how molds are made has
    fluctuated from hinting that they're machined to "perhaps new molds
    weren't being made from a machined male model but simply by pouring the mold
    material around a production cleat and then cutting it out and hand
    finishing the mold with a dremel like I just watched being done the other
    day", it's pretty obvious that you're not real sure about production mold making.
    Actually, it's obvious that you're simply being a know-it-all contrarian. Why don't
    you do yourself a favor and look up "injection molding" on the intertubes?

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  14. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that
    thread,
    your argument was predicated on:

    A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of
    their
    cleats and the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the
    original
    cleat model."

    And your ignorance about whether the sources from which they get their
    cleats molded even bother with a CAD file. You get funnier by the minute
    since you don't seem to have a strong connection with the way they do
    business around the world.

    Sorry, Tom, but what makes you think they *wouldn't* use a CAD file or
    drawing?
    Based on your posts, I know that you aren't at all familiar with how
    machining is
    done. A mold for those cleats (and it would be for several at once, not
    the one at a
    time style that you seem to envision) is done on CNC equipment or on a EDM
    machine
    (and the graphite electrode for that would be cut on a CNC mill). If a
    shop has CNC,
    they will have a CAD/CAM system and, hence, a way to use CAD files. Talk
    about being
    unfamiliar with how they do business around the world. You think it's all
    done on
    Lagun manual mills? Funnier by the minute, indeed.

    By all means tell us how Look cleats are made and where and by whom.

    Quoted message said:

    How do you know there were "subsequent molds" and they weren't still
    using the
    originals? Wild Ass Guess - again.

    Wild ass guess? A guess certainly since I am not privy to Look's books. But
    then I happen to know that most of North Africa has shops that still use
    hand operated machine tools. So if you want to make a replacement mold YOU
    USE THE OLD ONE AS A MODEL. But not being all that bright you haven't any
    idea what I'm talking about.

    I suggest that as long as you're being stupid you might as well tell us how
    many Look pedal sets you own.

  15. "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    > In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that
    > thread,
    > your argument was predicated on:
    >
    > A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of
    > their
    > cleats and the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the
    > original
    > cleat model."

    And your ignorance about whether the sources from which they get their
    cleats molded even bother with a CAD file. You get funnier by the minute
    since you don't seem to have a strong connection with the way they do
    business around the world.

    Sorry, Tom, but what makes you think they *wouldn't* use a CAD file or
    drawing?
    Based on your posts, I know that you aren't at all familiar with how
    machining is
    done. A mold for those cleats (and it would be for several at once, not
    the one at a
    time style that you seem to envision) is done on CNC equipment or on a
    EDM machine
    (and the graphite electrode for that would be cut on a CNC mill). If a
    shop has CNC,
    they will have a CAD/CAM system and, hence, a way to use CAD files. Talk
    about being
    unfamiliar with how they do business around the world. You think it's all
    done on
    Lagun manual mills? Funnier by the minute, indeed.

    By all means tell us how Look cleats are made and where and by whom.

    Quoted message said:

    How do you know there were "subsequent molds" and they weren't still
    using the
    originals? Wild Ass Guess - again.

    Wild ass guess? A guess certainly since I am not privy to Look's books.
    But then I happen to know that most of North Africa has shops that still
    use hand operated machine tools. So if you want to make a replacement mold
    YOU USE THE OLD ONE AS A MODEL. But not being all that bright you haven't
    any idea what I'm talking about.

    I suggest that as long as you're being stupid you might as well tell us
    how many Look pedal sets you own.

    The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my collarbone.

  16. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    > In order to reach the conclusion that you were promoting in that
    > thread, your argument was predicated on:
    >
    > A) Look not being smart enough to have a CAD file or drawing of
    > their cleats and the mold needed to make them, as well as having "lost the
    > original cleat model."

    And your ignorance about whether the sources from which they get their
    cleats molded even bother with a CAD file. You get funnier by the minute
    since you don't seem to have a strong connection with the way they do
    business around the world.

    Sorry, Tom, but what makes you think they *wouldn't* use a CAD file or
    drawing? Based on your posts, I know that you aren't at all familiar with
    how machining is done. A mold for those cleats (and it would be for several
    at once, not the one at a time style that you seem to envision) is done on
    CNC equipment or on a EDM machine (and the graphite electrode for that would
    be cut on a CNC mill). If a shop has CNC, they will have a CAD/CAM system
    and, hence, a way to use CAD files. Talk about being unfamiliar with how they
    do business around the world. You think it's all done on Lagun manual mills?
    Funnier by the minute, indeed.

    By all means tell us how Look cleats are made and where and by whom.

    You're flailing in an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you're
    unfamiliar with how commonplace CAD is.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    How do you know there were "subsequent molds" and they weren't still
    using the originals? Wild Ass Guess - again.

    Wild ass guess? A guess certainly since I am not privy to Look's books. But
    then I happen to know that most of North Africa has shops that still use
    hand operated machine tools. So if you want to make a replacement mold YOU
    USE THE OLD ONE AS A MODEL. But not being all that bright you haven't any
    idea what I'm talking about.

    I'm really laughing here, Tom, and not with you. That there are shops in North
    Africa ("I happen to know..." - snicker) that still use manual machines means ---
    what? There's plenty of shops in the US (and France, for that matter) that use
    manuals. A glance at the cleat tells you that it is *highly unlikely* for the molds
    to have been made on a manual. I am aware of what can be done on manuals - I started
    using them in '74. I also know what can be done on CNC machines, with and without
    CAD/CAM, by a good person, so I'm not underselling that aspect of the machine shop
    world by any stretch of the imagination. But having been in machine shops as long as
    I have, I have a good idea about what machines and processes are appropriate for
    parts. See, I get paid real money for that particular skill.

    Part of the problem here is your misconception of the molds - you're laboring
    under the illusion that they take a "machined male model" and pour some stuff over it
    and when it hardens, it's a mold. That method can be used for short runs on simple
    parts but *real production* is, as I've told you repeatedly, done with metal molds
    (aluminum or steel for the most part) that have the cavity machined into them with
    mills and/or EDM. There are two pieces (or more in certain more complex molds) that
    mate up with runners for the material, some means of dislodging the part (air,
    ejector pins or stripper plates, for example) and a few more bits, depending on the
    size and complexity of the mold and parts. See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DSC05440.JPG

    Quoted message said:

    I suggest that as long as you're being stupid you might as well tell us how
    many Look pedal sets you own.

    You're flailing again... Posing that question as a means to prove that I
    understand what it takes to do production molds for a cleat is, well, stupid.

    See, this is where your contrary and superior mindset causes you trouble. You're
    locked into the idea that your concept of how the process works and cannot manage to
    see that others might actually be familiar with the real methodology. This could
    easily be a moment where you say, "Oh, so that's how it gets done" and you'll have
    learned something. Instead you set about making yourself look silly. Certainly
    succeeded there, I must say.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Fabergé eggs are elegant but I prefer Fabergé bacon.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  17. Carl Sundquist said:

    The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my collarbone.

    So sue them for a new collar bone.

    I remember clipping out of Looks, but since switching to Time I've
    never clipped out (and they mostly fixed a ankle/calf problem
    I had through to much float with the red cleats and no float with
    the black ones.)

  18. Donald Munro said:
    Carl Sundquist said:

    The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my collarbone.

    So sue them for a new collar bone.

    I remember clipping out of Looks, but since switching to Time I've
    never clipped out (and they mostly fixed a ankle/calf problem
    I had through to much float with the red cleats and no float with
    the black ones.)

    Must be uncomfortable sitting at your desk at work with the bike still
    attatched.

  19. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my collarbone.

    Yeah, the quality went WAY down for awhile and I bought a bunch of DuraAce
    look-type pedals to use. Now they're back to being fairly good. The cleats
    had become absolute [censored] and I couldn't use Look cleats anymore because they
    rattled in the pedals. The latest cleats are back to working well.

  20. "Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    xxxxxxxx

    Kveck, I suggest you continue talking to yourself since you haven't a clue
    what you're talking about.

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