Electronic shifting system

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bret said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Quoted message said:

For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
notion of electronics.

For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.

So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?

My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
the electronics kept working.

I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy up in
Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to work pretty
reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the way, do you have a link
to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be interested in what he has to say about
it.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bret said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

Quoted message said:

You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?

Quoted message said:

My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
the electronics kept working.

I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy up in
Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to work pretty
reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the way, do you have a link
to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be interested in what he has to say about
it.

I remember that too and know the guy he was talking about, Alan Hills.
He is (was?) an electronics tech at NCAR that repaired a failed zap
system that he got cheap. The article was about how to build a light/
cheap climbing bike on a budget. It's simple really, you just go out
and find some failed Zap components and repair it. The guy's a friend
of Zin and also took part in Zin's crank length experiments.

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

Google Jobst and Zap in Google Groups and I'm sure you'll find it.

Bret

Bret said:

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
thinking it.

\p
---
Software is like sex; it's better when it's free. --- Linus Torvalds

d p chang said:

Bret said:

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
thinking it.

It was a problem with the circuit driving the solenoid which wouldn't
be difficult to reverse engineer. Here's an old thread from 1994 on
the subject:

http://tinyurl.com/343x48

Bret

Autra Bike Co : Automatic shifting system

About 15 years ago I was at Interbike in Long Beach and I ran across
this automatic shifting system that was developed by Autra Bike Co.
The shifting system had this variable sprocket system. The gear system
used this system whereby wedges of teeth would move in and out of
place to form a gear. The system was patented, but never moved beyond
the prototype state. I suspect that the system would be unable to
withstand the torque of a conventional shifting system.

Autra bike also developed a very elegant hydraulic brake system. One
of the people at Magura told me that he saw the braking leaking fluid
however.

The patents are available:
(http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850939.html )

Quoted message said:

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Autra Bike Co : Automatic shifting system

About 15 years ago I was at Interbike in Long Beach and I ran across
this automatic shifting system that was developed by Autra Bike Co.
The shifting system had this variable sprocket system. The gear system
used this system whereby wedges of teeth would move in and out of
place to form a gear. The system was patented, but never moved beyond
the prototype state. I suspect that the system would be unable to
withstand the torque of a conventional shifting system.

Autra bike also developed a very elegant hydraulic brake system. One
of the people at Magura told me that he saw the braking leaking fluid
however.

The patents are available:
(http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850939.html )

Quoted message said:

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bret said:

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy
up in Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to
work pretty reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the
way, do you have a link to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be
interested in what he has to say about it.

I remember that too and know the guy he was talking about, Alan Hills.
He is (was?) an electronics tech at NCAR that repaired a failed zap
system that he got cheap. The article was about how to build a light/
cheap climbing bike on a budget. It's simple really, you just go out
and find some failed Zap components and repair it. The guy's a friend
of Zin and also took part in Zin's crank length experiments.

Yep, that was the article. After I sent, I remembered the article's focus. Thanks.

Quoted message said:

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

Google Jobst and Zap in Google Groups and I'm sure you'll find it.

I'll do that - thanks again.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Quoted message said:

Autra Bike Co : Automatic shifting system
About 15 years ago I was at Interbike in Long Beach and I ran across
this automatic shifting system that was developed by Autra Bike Co.
The shifting system had this variable sprocket system. The gear system
used this system whereby wedges of teeth would move in and out of
place to form a gear. The system was patented, but never moved beyond
the prototype state. I suspect that the system would be unable to
withstand the torque of a conventional shifting system.
Autra bike also developed a very elegant hydraulic brake system. One
of the people at Magura told me that he saw the braking leaking fluid
however.
The patents are available:
(http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850939.html )

That was previously patented by Tokheim around 1973.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Quoted message said:

For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
notion of electronics.

For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are
mouthy. I
can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to
do
that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's
a
throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.

So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
meters, HR monitors and cyclometers.

You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

Quoted message said:

My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
designed electronics.

Your opinion and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at a truck stop.

"d p chang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bret said:

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
thinking it.

No, there wasn't much to the controller. All it did was lift one solenoid or
the other and then drop it. The rest was all mechanical.

Quoted message said:

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A current electronic shift bike:

http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6167611-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.

Bret

http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bret said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.

Bret

http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9

Ooh, I'm betting he takes "Insults for $100, Alex" as his answer...

By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's take on
Zap / Mektronic pretty well:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A current electronic shift bike:

http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6167611-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

My wife and I each have one of the new Giant Suede Coasting bikes. They
shift quite smoothly and are a delight to ride. I ride a Specialized Allez
road bike as well but the new "Coastings" are a lot of fun to ride together
in the neighborhoods.

We ride between 6 - 8 miles per day on the Giants and love every minute of
it. She had no desire for a derailer system nor hand brakes. and has not
been on a bike for 20 years.

They are not very "technical" but they sure are fun plus they got her back
into riding.

Mike

Howard Kveck said:

...
By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's take on
Zap / Mektronic pretty well:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

Some people will prefer to read it here:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/electronic-shifting.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Quoted message said:

Help! The RBR bot is arguing with the RBT bot!
It's a cascade of doom!1!!...

Maybe they are actually the same bot? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom \'Johnny Sunset\' Sherman said:

Howard Kveck said:

...
By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's
take on
Zap / Mektronic pretty well:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

Some people will prefer to read it here:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/electronic-shifting.html>.

Well, alright. The other one came up first in my search, which is why I chose it.

Interestingly, JB says that there isn't enough tension in the system to be able
work well on a 40-52 ringset with a 13-24 cogset - I know of a bike that used 39-53
and a 12-25 (though more often a 12-21) with a Zap that worked just fine.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bret said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.

Bret

http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9

Ooh, I'm betting he takes "Insults for $100, Alex" as his answer...

By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's
take on
Zap / Mektronic pretty well:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
clutches"?

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
clutches"?

Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch. The solenoid briefly fires a pin into a sliding
rack to move the mechanism. I think of dog clutches as seen in freewheel/hubs (pawls
and teeth) or the Ram Coupler when in the open (or direct drive) position
(internal/external splines):

http://www.ramclutches.com/Tech/coupler1.htm

So it could be considered a clutch. However:

"The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong jolt
and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own." [1]

The solenoids are only fired when it's shifting - the rest of the time, the
derailleur held its position by a detent system, which was very positive. The sketchy
electronics were the cause of random shifts or, more frequently, no shifts.

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/41ef71ee8bcd9778?hl

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich"
<cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
clutches"?

Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.

What a nutcake.