Electronic shifting system

[Bret]

On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
> >> >> electronics
> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
> >> >> shifter
> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
> >> length of one day?
>
> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>
> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
> the power requirements.
>
> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>
> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who have
> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their own
> capital.

I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.

Bret

Bret

 

[Andrew Price]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:34:57 -0500, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

[Browning Automatic Transmission]

>I rode several prototypes and the final product. It was exactly as
>stated, perfect crisp shifts every time, any rpm, any load.
>The industry collectively yawned, "electronic shift, so what else ya
>got?" and moved on.

What was the problem - cost?

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> >> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>> >> >> electronics
>> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>> >> >> shifter
>> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>
>> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>>
>> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
>> >> strong
>> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
>> >> the
>> >> length of one day?
>>
>> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
>> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
>> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>>
>> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
>> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
>> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
>> the power requirements.
>>
>> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>>
>> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
>> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
>> have
>> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
>> own
>> capital.
>
> I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
> why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
> consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
> mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
> spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.

Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
What are the cost of the sensors?

ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions?

Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.

If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
"click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
>> shifting.
>> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>

Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

 

[Bret]

On Aug 13, 7:27 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> >> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
> >> >> >> electronics
> >> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
> >> >> >> shifter
> >> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> >> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> >> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> >> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
> >> >> strong
> >> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
> >> >> the
> >> >> length of one day?
>
> >> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
> >> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
> >> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>
> >> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
> >> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
> >> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
> >> the power requirements.
>
> >> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>
> >> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
> >> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
> >> have
> >> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
> >> own
> >> capital.
>
> > I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
> > why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
> > consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
> > mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
> > spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.
>
> Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
> What are the cost of the sensors?
>
> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
notion of electronics.

Bret

 

[jim beam]

Bret wrote:
> On Aug 13, 7:27 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>>>>>>>> electronics
>>>>>>>> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>>>>>>>> shifter
>>>>>>>> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>>>>>> Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>>>>>>> the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>>>>>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
>>>>>> strong
>>>>>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> length of one day?
>>>>> I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
>>>>> nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
>>>>> electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>>>> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
>>>> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
>>>> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
>>>> the power requirements.
>>>> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>>>> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
>>>> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
>>>> have
>>>> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
>>>> own
>>>> capital.
>>> I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
>>> why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
>>> consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
>>> mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
>>> spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.
>> Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
>> What are the cost of the sensors?
>>
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.
>
> Bret
>

indeed!

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
> >
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
> >
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
> >
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

Mavic Neutral Support would have to carry a much smaller variety of wheels if it
could do that.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[amakyonin]

On Aug 12, 1:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I HATE automatic transmission in motor vehicles, because of the
> down-shifts that occur when one wants just a little more power in the
> same gear. On bicycles, they are an even worse idea.

FWIW. Modern, computer controlled automatics will delay shifting if
you floor the pedal. There can still be some delay getting the power
surge through the torque converter but they are better than the
automatics of yore.

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

amakyonin wrote:
> On Aug 12, 1:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I HATE automatic transmission in motor vehicles, because of the
>> down-shifts that occur when one wants just a little more power in the
>> same gear. On bicycles, they are an even worse idea.
>
> FWIW. Modern, computer controlled automatics will delay shifting if
> you floor the pedal. There can still be some delay getting the power
> surge through the torque converter but they are better than the
> automatics of yore.

My recent experience was with a 2007 model year (company) vehicle.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Bret wrote:
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.

He a virtual electronic designer who owns a red herring restaurant.

 

[lightninglad]

On Aug 11, 7:16 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "lightninglad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
> >> whether or not the chain is centered.
>
> > Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...
>
> > Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
> > that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
> > bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?
>
> > Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
> > if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
> > build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
> > the computer adjust it.
>
> > If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
> > expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
> > motor and a computer chip?
>
> You obviously have a brilliant future in engineering. What is it that you do
> again?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What has 'what I do' got to do with the issue.? You haven't addressed
the issue at all - you've just taken a cheap shot.
I'll stand by what I said - vibration detection is standard
engineering practice. Domestic appliances are now electronically
controlled. Say something relevant or ********.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Aug 14, 8:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
shifting at the high end.

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Aug 15, 7:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
> will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
> shifting at the high end.

I'm pretty sure it's gonna be sooner rather than later.

Why? Because of the hoods on my 2007 Veloce Ergos.

I was puzzled by those hoods. They don't have the slot for the full
throw of the thumb lever, since you can only upshift one click at a
time. They also had Ergobrain buttons. This really bugged me, because
none of the levers that could use these hoods are Ergobrain
compatible. Are they coming out with a new Ergobrain model that's
"escape" compatible? Not likely. People who spend that much on a
computer are also going to spring for the higher-end group.

So why Ergobrain buttons? Then I saw a pic on Velonews of the
prototype electronic group, and it all fell into place. It had single-
click thumb lever throw, and an Ergobrain head was integral to the
system.

If Campy wasn't serious about bringing the group out in the next two
years, they would not have integrated a useless feature into a
redesigned hood.

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Aug 14, 7:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

One might have to "degrade" all to 8sp for that, and even then I'm not
so sure. Don't forget the chain width problem. An 8sp chain will
have a tough time on a 10 sp cassette. Conversely, I wonder if a 10sp
chain will seat on 8sp 1.8 mm cogs, or shift well. Hmm....

A 10 sp mix of Campy to Shimano and vice versa might be possible
_assuming everyone has a working and programmable system_.

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Aug 15, 1:04 am, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
> Bret wrote:
> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > notion of electronics.
>
> He a virtual electronic designer who owns a red herring restaurant.

With all the low hanging fruit, why would you folks pick on the
controller cost?

Maybe head on over to Digikey and get some prices.

 

[Bret]

On Aug 15, 8:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 14, 8:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
> > > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> > >> shifting.
> > >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> > Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> > Shimano, on the fly would be handy .
>
> One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
> will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
> shifting at the high end.

It will be left to some independent to do this. I predict Modolo
Morphos II with electronically configured shift indexing able to
support any cassette spacing.

Bret

 

[Aeek]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:16:26 -0000, "Qui si parla
Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote:

>One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
>will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
>shifting at the high end.

Why stop at 10s? Eliminating the human variable from the lever throw
gives repeatable precision, and as you mentioned trim can be
programmed to compensate for chain cross.
Electronic only 12s shifting, that's a real high end.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.

For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.

So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

 

[Bret]

On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > notion of electronics.
>
> For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
> can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
> that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
> throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
>
> So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?

My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
the electronics kept working.

Bret