Electronic Shifting



[email protected] wrote:
> It just won't die. It ought to.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09


Wireless electronic shifting is a necessary step, a logical
evolution from radios and earpieces. Fogies young and old
complain about the radios and the DS yammering in the
riders' ears, but wait until the DS is actually shifting the
riders' bikes for them. If Bjarne decides Ivan needs to
attack, he presses a button and pow, Ivan's got to step
it up if he wants to keep turning over the pedals. It can
work in reverse too - I'm sure there have been times
where Ballerini wished he could downshift some
freelancing member of the Azzuri.

You might say that this is another corporatist step in
ruining the romance of the sport and the element of
human judgement, but don't get all Old Europe on me
all of a sudden. You bought this technological
revolution when you threw away your last Sachs freewheel.

Ben
has disassembled a Sachs freewheel, while riding
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> Wireless electronic shifting is a necessary step, a logical
> evolution from radios and earpieces. Fogies young and old
> complain about the radios and the DS yammering in the
> riders' ears, but wait until the DS is actually shifting the
> riders' bikes for them. If Bjarne decides Ivan needs to
> attack, he presses a button and pow, Ivan's got to step
> it up if he wants to keep turning over the pedals. It can
> work in reverse too - I'm sure there have been times
> where Ballerini wished he could downshift some
> freelancing member of the Azzuri.


I think you should stop playing Cycling Manager 4 on your PC and go ride
your bike.
 
> I just don't see any possible benefit to electronic shifting. Just
> more complexity. Maybe I'm missing something. Is there any possible
> benefit?
>
> R


Funny, I remember saying the same thing about index shifting when it
came out!
 
B

Brian S

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>> I just don't see any possible benefit to electronic shifting. Just
>> more complexity. Maybe I'm missing something. Is there any possible
>> benefit?
>>
>> R

>
> Funny, I remember saying the same thing about index shifting when it
> came out!
>


I can see it as a benefit to someone with deformed hands(from an
accident or from a birth defect) that don't have much hand strength or
fine motor control, but really, how can this help most of us out? It
sounds like someones novel idea to make us upgrade again and yet another
thing that can go wrong.

Does anyone have any idea what the pros are for having electronic
shifting? A lot of new ideas are brushed aside because of tradition or a
lack of wanting to try new things, but this one really eludes me.
 
R

RicodJour

Guest
Brian S wrote:
>
> I can see it as a benefit to someone with deformed hands(from an
> accident or from a birth defect) that don't have much hand strength or
> fine motor control, but really, how can this help most of us out? It
> sounds like someones novel idea to make us upgrade again and yet another
> thing that can go wrong.


Handicapped shifting....hoo boy. Please don't let that get out. Next
thing you know some **** head politico looking to make a name for
himself will try to get it signed into law for handicap access.

> Does anyone have any idea what the pros are for having electronic
> shifting? A lot of new ideas are brushed aside because of tradition or a
> lack of wanting to try new things, but this one really eludes me.


I think we should go back to the old ways where the hired guy ran next
to the bike and shifted for them. Much more genteel.

R
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 10 Mar 2006 09:17:31 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I just don't see any possible
> benefit to electronic shifting.


The rider could have multiple shift buttons, enabling shifting with
less hand movement, or even no hand movement, from the tops, hoods,
drops, tt bars, etc.

JT


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R

RicodJour

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2006 09:17:31 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I just don't see any possible
> > benefit to electronic shifting.

>
> The rider could have multiple shift buttons, enabling shifting with
> less hand movement, or even no hand movement, from the tops, hoods,
> drops, tt bars, etc.


Hmmm. Right. That could be useful, I suppose. Do you think that's
what's driving the development or that they're looking for an automatic
transmission?

R
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 10 Mar 2006 18:11:41 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>> I just don't see any possible benefit to electronic shifting. Just
>> more complexity. Maybe I'm missing something. Is there any possible
>> benefit?
>>
>> R

>
>Funny, I remember saying the same thing about index shifting when it
>came out!


So did I. The thing was, we were both right. The only good indexed shifting did
was make Ergo and STI possible. It was one of those evolutionary steps that
leave people going "Huh?"

In the end it was a useful step. The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
lead to that makes any sense? Automatic shifting? No thanks.

I'm open to ideas, I just don't see 'em from here.

Ron
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:43:24 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
>lead to that makes any sense?


Thank about it a little harder. For racing, electronic shifting
offers the possiblity of easily having multiple controls for the same
shifter at different places on the bars. That can be a big advantage.
In fact, that's why Chris Boardman used Mavic electronic shifting
often on this TT bikes.

JT

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H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:43:24 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
> >lead to that makes any sense?

>
> Thank about it a little harder. For racing, electronic shifting
> offers the possiblity of easily having multiple controls for the same
> shifter at different places on the bars. That can be a big advantage.
> In fact, that's why Chris Boardman used Mavic electronic shifting
> often on this TT bikes.
>
> JT


The multiple points to shift from idea is a good one, but I think the main
reason for Boardman to use it was because he could set it up so he wouldn't have
to leave his aero postion at all to shift. Another aspect of electronic shifting
is the ability to pre-select a shift (a gear or two) while coasting in a turn so
it shifts as soon as you start to apply power.

I think the electronic shifter concept is ok for the rear, but I don't see
any reason to bother with it for the front. But then I still use a downtube
shifter for the front. I never liked the feel of STI in the front.

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
B

Brian S

Guest
RonSonic wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2006 18:11:41 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> In the end it was a useful step. The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
> lead to that makes any sense? Automatic shifting? No thanks.


> Ron


http://www.niknaks.com/autobike.htm

automatic shifting has been around for a little while actually.
 
S

Stu Fleming

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> In fact, that's why Chris Boardman used Mavic electronic shifting
> often on this TT bikes.


Alex Zuelle was another early adopter.
The team mechanics may have been behind the decision since the early
Ergo and STI levers were fragile under heavy crash load...
 
R

RicodJour

Guest
Brian S wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
> > On 10 Mar 2006 18:11:41 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > In the end it was a useful step. The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
> > lead to that makes any sense? Automatic shifting? No thanks.

>
> > Ron

>
> http://www.niknaks.com/autobike.htm
>
> automatic shifting has been around for a little while actually.


Electronic and automatic are not synonymous.

R
 
D

Dan Spisak

Guest
Good point, John. Having the ability to place controls in an optimum location is
tremendous. This will greatly reduce RSIs and carpel tunnel problems. Both of my hands
would become almost numb after a long ride with either STI or Ergo no matter how I
positioned the levers.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:43:24 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>The electronic thing.... I dunno, what could it
>>lead to that makes any sense?

>
>
> Thank about it a little harder. For racing, electronic shifting
> offers the possiblity of easily having multiple controls for the same
> shifter at different places on the bars. That can be a big advantage.
> In fact, that's why Chris Boardman used Mavic electronic shifting
> often on this TT bikes.
>
> JT
>
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
 
B

Brian S

Guest
Dan Spisak wrote:
> Good point, John. Having the ability to place controls in an optimum
> location is tremendous. This will greatly reduce RSIs and carpel tunnel
> problems. Both of my hands would become almost numb after a long ride
> with either STI or Ergo no matter how I positioned the levers.
>


So people doing RAAM and hour records (or other long distance / aero
races), and people with physical difficulties could find this very
usefull. That's a pretty small market. There must be a reason beyond
that that they're thinking of to pursue this technology. Are they just
trying to feed the techno geeks in us some goodies?

I know I don't feel the need for more places to be able to shift. There
must be something more to this. I remember Campy had a hard time keeping
the weight down and making the front derailler shift properly under load
for a while. I imagine that the other guys (Mavic and Shimano) had
similar problems. Guess we'll find out in a few years as it matures to
see what the long term idea behind this is.
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>> > Wireless electronic shifting is a necessary step, a logical
>> > evolution from radios and earpieces. Fogies young and old
>> > complain about the radios and the DS yammering in the
>> > riders' ears, but wait until the DS is actually shifting the
>> > riders' bikes for them. If Bjarne decides Ivan needs to
>> > attack, he presses a button and pow, Ivan's got to step
>> > it up if he wants to keep turning over the pedals. It can
>> > work in reverse too - I'm sure there have been times
>> > where Ballerini wished he could downshift some
>> > freelancing member of the Azzuri.


Donald Munro wrote:
>> I think you should stop playing Cycling Manager 4 on your PC and go ride
>> your bike.


RicodJour wrote:
> That's not funny. He has Pro Cycling Manager 5. ;)


I hope they've improved it substantially over version 4 then. I never
could see how any self respecting team manager could get by without being
able to design a doping program for his riders. In fact I think they could
incoparate a Masters of Orion style technology tree allowing the manager
to invest in research programs on new drugs perhaps culiminating in a gene
doping program.
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:11:32 -0500, Brian S <[email protected]>
wrote:

>So people doing RAAM and hour records (or other long distance / aero
>races), and people with physical difficulties could find this very
>usefull. That's a pretty small market. There must be a reason beyond
>that that they're thinking of to pursue this technology. Are they just
>trying to feed the techno geeks in us some goodies?


>
>I know I don't feel the need for more places to be able to shift.


Do you actually race bikes? Have you raced an intense and technical
criterium? Have you ever been suffering badly while on a long climb
with the grade constantly shifting?

RAAM? This is a bike racing group. And there is no need for shifting
in the hour record.

JT



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B

Brian S

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:11:32 -0500, Brian S <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> So people doing RAAM and hour records (or other long distance / aero
>> races), and people with physical difficulties could find this very
>> usefull. That's a pretty small market. There must be a reason beyond
>> that that they're thinking of to pursue this technology. Are they just
>> trying to feed the techno geeks in us some goodies?

>
>> I know I don't feel the need for more places to be able to shift.

>
> Do you actually race bikes? Have you raced an intense and technical
> criterium? Have you ever been suffering badly while on a long climb
> with the grade constantly shifting?
>


Yes, I do race periodically (and ride with some pretty talented people),
given time restraints to training. I've never felt I needed multiple
places to shift. When I'm riding hard and I'm betting most people do,
they're hands are either in the drops or hoods. From there shifting is
pretty easy. So why then would I need another place to be able to shift
from unless your in a strange position and even then you'd probably be
using some kind of TT shifting position anyway.

The only time I'm moving my hands around a lot is when I'm riding slow
for a long, time for comfort, shifting isn't a priority then.

> RAAM? This is a bike racing group. And there is no need for shifting
> in the hour record.
>
> JT
>


I mentioned those two in reference to riding in odd positions for longer
periods of time than most people do.

Like I said earlier, I don't see the benefit of this technology at this
time given it's potential drawbacks (battery life, potential electrical
interference blocking shifting, like current cars - more things that can
go wrong vs simple mechanical devices, potential higher cost).

Whatever, this can go into a barcon vs sti/ergo shifter debate, which I
don't care to get into. I'll just wait and see what happens when the
stuff comes out.