Elliptical oil drops



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[email protected] wrote:
> There might have been had someone analyzed this years ago, however the mechanism for them was
> understood before there were cars.
>
> Oops, that was a clue, but then you knew that already.
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected]

The only thng I have ever seen that looked like that involved steer pee.
 
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:46:55 GMT, [email protected] may have said:

>Werehatrack who? writes:
>
>>> I've interviewed bicyclists far and wide and never found anyone who has ever seen an elliptical
>>> oil ring on the road, much less someone who had any idea of how they get there. They are thin
>>> elliptical rings with a major to minor diameter of about pi:1 and between 20mm and 200mm long,
>>> the long axis in line with traffic.
>
>>> There WILL be a quiz!
>
>>> Where do you find them and how are they made?
>
>> Sounds like an oil or grease spot got elongated by being run over by a tire. An impact by an oil
>> drop, no matter what it's approach angle, will always produce a circular spot, but as a wheel
>> rolls across a spot, anything on the surface will tend to get rolled out.
>
>These are "RINGS" not solid spots. However your description fits chewing gum, also a substance that
>few bicyclists see. Oil on the spots on a road do not get stretched by passing tires.

Waitaminute. Diesel duel leakage from a truck; it would dissolve the film of oil from the area, and
would carry away tire dust, but the tendency is for the contaminated fuel to collect in a ring
around the edge of the spot. This would only work on a *concrete* surface, not asphalt. Elliptical
because the vehicle was in motion. Probably most common in the road near a truck stop.

This is, however, probably not the answer you're looking for.

Of course, such a mark might also be made (faintly) by the impact of a bike tire with concrete
pavement, if the tire's rotational speed badly mismatches its forward speed.

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On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:30:18 GMT, Dan <[email protected]> may have said:

>
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> There might have been had someone analyzed this years ago, however the mechanism for them was
>> understood before there were cars.
>>
>> Oops, that was a clue, but then you knew that already.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt [email protected]
>
>
>
>The only thng I have ever seen that looked like that involved steer pee.

Birdshit. On my freaking windshield, fer crying out loud. Talk about something that's right in
front of you!

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>Where do you find them and how are they made?

WAG:

Oil drips on water puddle, migrates to edges, puddle is elongated as the traffic generated wind
deforms it, puddle evaporates, oil left in ring.

Cigar?

Doug
 
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I've interviewed bicyclists far and wide and never found anyone who has ever seen an elliptical
> oil ring on the road, much less someone who had any idea of how they get there. They are thin
> elliptical rings with a major to minor diameter of about pi:1 and between 20mm and 200mm long, the
> long axis in line with traffic.
>
> There WILL be a quiz!
>
> Where do you find them and how are they made?
>
> Jobst Brandt [email protected]

I'll bite... I have no idea, so I'll try and narrow it down.

1/ Using the clue from another post, it doesn't necessarily come from a car.

2/ The oil ring is (erm) made of oil - not chain lube or grease, so it comes from something that has
oil in it or on it. I might note that the clue said nothing about being like motor oil - maybe
another kind of oil...

3/ The oil is probably dropped onto the road surface rather than appearing from below. Asphalt roads
sometimes have problems with their components moving about, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't
manifest itself in elliptical rings...

4/ The ratio of the major/minor axis is roughly constant, regardless of whether the ring has a major
diameter of 20mm or 200mm. This would seem to preclude differences in the speed of the thing
dropping the oil. Rather, the ratios suggest height is a factor, where perhaps the oil gets
dispersed more from a greater height...

5/ The ring is not solid, so I guess that precludes a "drop" of oil... unless something else comes
along and moves the oil out of the middle of the ring...

ok. So what has oil in it? Diff? Transmission? Motor? The first clue did suggest these rings
appeared before cars, but horse-drawn carts may have some oily bits. Unfortunately I don't know
enough about vehicles or oils to guess with any precision.

Wild stab in the dark... There is oil on the road, dropped in the usual way. A bit of detergent
falls on the road on a hot day. Maybe the detergent disperses the oil around it in a circular
fashion initially, but the wind from passing traffic blows the (dispersing and drying) detergent
into an ellipse? The detergent dries off and you're left with an oil ring?

All right, at least I had a go...

Ritch.

PS. I'm sure I'll say something like, "I knew all along", which will be completely untrue.
 
Originally posted by Werehatrack
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:20:53 GMT, [email protected] may have said:

>I've interviewed bicyclists far and wide and never found anyone who has ever seen an elliptical oil
>ring on the road, much less someone who had any idea of how they get there. They are thin
>elliptical rings with a major to minor diameter of about pi:1 and between 20mm and 200mm long, the
>long axis in line with traffic.
>
>There WILL be a quiz!
>
>Where do you find them and how are they made?

Sounds like an oil or grease spot got elongated by being run over by a tire. An impact by an oil
drop, no matter what it's approach angle, will always produce a circular spot, but as a wheel rolls
across a spot, anything on the surface will tend to get rolled out.

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Why would oil dropping from a moving car leave a circular spot? It seems, to my lesser educated mind, that the drop would lengthen in the direction of the movement of the car.
 
Doug who? writes:

> WAG:

> Oil drips on water puddle, migrates to edges, puddle is elongated as the traffic generated wind
> deforms it, puddle evaporates, oil left in ring.

> Cigar?

No cigar.

I notice that no one has yet reported seeing an elliptical oil ring on the road, which confirms my
notion that bicyclists do not see what they are looking at, as with getting flats.

How about looking for them on 20-30mph mountain roads the next time you go for a ride.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:26:03 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
> Birdshit. On my freaking windshield, fer crying out loud. Talk about something that's right in
> front of you!

Lately, every bird **** or bug splat on my glass is of the impossible to remove variety known as
"Deadly Window Killing Bird **** Of Death".

Any tips?

--
Rick Onanian
 
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:22:01 -0000, Ray Heindl <[email protected]> may have said:

>Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> If it's an open ring, I'd further postulate that the edges accumulated contaminants from the
>> surface which formed a more stable and durable conglomerate, and the center's liquids then got
>> washed away or tracked away. I've noticed that when certain things get tracked around in the
>> house, after the first few steps, the image that's being left is a ring instead of a spot. (And
>> since the SO is housekeeping-impaired, I'm more often the one who gets to clean it up.) (Yes,
>> with power tools.)
>>
>> This is just a SWAG.
>
>Maybe it's related to the rings left when spilled coffee evaporates. Surface tension pulls the
>suspended particles to the edge of the spot as it evaporates, so most of the particles end up at
>the edge.

Good point.

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On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:01:45 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> may have said:

>On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:26:03 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Birdshit. On my freaking windshield, fer crying out loud. Talk about something that's right in
>> front of you!
>
>Lately, every bird **** or bug splat on my glass is of the impossible to remove variety known as
>"Deadly Window Killing Bird **** Of Death".
>
>Any tips?

Magnum loads of small steel shot, and move to where the power lines are all buried.

Falling bird offal is not, however, the worst airborne hazard faced in this area. Just to the north,
there are BOUS (Bugs Of Unusual Size), many of which seem to go suicidal when anything on wheels
approaches. Taking a hit on the cheek from a one-and-a-half-ounce sharply armored beetle when
descending a hill at 40mph can really ruin your day; I saw this happen to a rider in Sherman a few
weeks back. He was *not* amused, but fortunately avoided going down at that speed. It left a nasty
bunch of bleeding scratches, though. The bug splatted on my windshield after it bounced off of him.
It looked like a rock until it hit.

--
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"KBH" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> My theory:
>
> Imagine a sphere, sliced up into a very large number (you can take the limit to infinity if you
> want) of horizontal slices. Now set this on the ground and smear it in one direction - what shape
> do you have? An ellipse! Therefore, a drop of oil, dropped from a moving car, would tend to make
> this shape. But perhaps on a normal flat road, the velocity of the drop would typically be too
> high, and its angle of collision with the road too large, to make a nice ellipse. This is why you
> would be more likely to see them on an uphill - the vehicle is traveling slower, and the upward
> angle of the road serves to lessen the angle of collision between drop trajectory and road,
> allowing the creation of a recognizable ellipse.

My theory is identical, except to explain the ring, rather than just an elliptical smear, I'd say
that as the drop hits the road, its forward velocity would cause it to trap air, essentially blowing
a bubble, the "projection" of which on the road would be an outline, or ring.
 
In <[email protected]>, [email protected] opined:

> I notice that no one has yet reported seeing an elliptical oil ring on the road, which confirms my
> notion that bicyclists do not see what they are looking at, as with getting flats.

It's true that no one has reported seeing an elliptical oil ring, but people do report seeing many
other more interesting things of similar scale on the road, so I don't think this example confirms
your notion very well. It could still be a true notion, but you can't prove it this way.

Oil droplets of various descriptions are found by the tens of thousands per block in cities, yet all
of them fall into a general category of non-hazardous and inconsequential road features, and even if
they're noticed there's no reason to remember any particular shape or pattern.

And I'm not sure how you mean "as with getting flats" -- they don't notice that they HAVE flats,
they don't notice things that MIGHT cause flats, or they don't notice what DID cause a particular
flat? Or something else?

> How about looking for them on 20-30mph mountain roads the next time you go for a ride.

I couldn't wait until I could go to the mountains so I (man, I have SO GOT TO FIND A JOB!) went
outside to look at my 20-30 mph city street in Washington DC. This is different from what was
suggested, so maybe my observations aren't significant in this context, but until I understand
better I'll assume that what I saw is essentially similar to what I would find on a mountain road.
The street I looked at had an additional advantage in that it's a one-way street that hasn't been
molested by a street sweeper for many years. It also has a 5 ft. wide bike lane on one side.

http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/overview.jpg (61kb JPEG)

At first I noticed a lot of oil drops, ranging in size from a few mm up to a couple hundred mm. I
saw a lot of different shapes too, from very circular to long and roughly elliptical, and even a few
linear and irregular ones. As expected, there appeared to be more drops in the center of the road
and fewer at the edges.

A common and unexpected shape is one I'd describe as a half-ellipse, with an elongated part pointing
to where the traffic approaches and a more rounded part where the traffic goes. I suppose that when
a drop first contacts the pavement it is moving fast enough to elongate, but once a lot of the drop
has landed there are other factors that make the rest of it less elongated.

http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/half-ellipse.jpg (61kb JPG)

Anyway...

I walked a block before I found a single clearly visible elliptical ring. Only one ring in a heavily
travelled block, so I was ready to dismiss the whole phenomenon as a rarity and use that to explain
why nobody reports seeing them. But I wasn't really satisfied that I had looked well enough, as this
particular block has a stop light so a lot of the traffic isn't moving normally.

So I walked another half block in the other direction. By the time I got to where I took the
overview picture above I had lost count of the elliptical rings I spotted, but the number was over a
couple dozen. In fact, there's one near the exact middle of the overview picture. Here's a purely
optical telephoto version from the same perspective:

http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-med.jpg (39kb JPEG)

And here's a closeup, including my toes to provide a rough scale, from a much closer position. I was
standing perpendicular to the roadway, and traffic approaches from the left in this shot:

http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-close.jpg (63kb JPEG)

Notice that the ring is ragged and somewhat obscured by other droplets. It wasn't very obvious while
I was walking and looking for it the first time, and even once I knew it was there I had to look
closely to find it a second time - thank goodness it held its pose for my picture.

Here's a family shot of at least four elliptical rings, to show a range of appearances. These are of
similar scale as the one above.

!! This is a LARGE FILE !!:

http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/family.jpg (692 kb JPEG)

I don't know if these would register to my brain unless I was actively looking for them. I'll keep
my eyes open on my rides this afternoon both for these known ones and for others I don't expect, and
I bet I'll see more now than I ever did before, but I'll still miss more of them than I see.

But most significantly (to the discussion of how observant most cyclists are at least) the rings I
found were smack dab in the middle of the road. This is a place I don't casually go. If I am riding
there, I am certain to pay more attention to traffic than to inconsequential things like the shapes
of common oil spots on the road. Heck, even if they were rings of bright green paint I'm not sure
I'd notice their shapes and live to tell about it...

And how did these get there in the first place? I'm still a bit stumped. I remember that an ellipse
is a 2D representation of a 4D sphere, but that doesn't account for the ellipse being a ring -- it
would be filled, with the inner border of the ring perhaps being a bit fuzzy. I'm now leaning toward
a spherical water droplet coated in oil but with the water rupturing through the bottom at impact?

--
Dave Salovesh [email protected]
 
Dave Salovesh wrote:

> http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-close.jpg

Interesting. The elliptical shape seems to immitate the contact patch of a bicycle (or motorcycle)
tire. That's a huge clue. I now have a hypothesis that makes sense. A slick tire with a circular
cross section strikes an oil droplet. The droplet adheres to the tire and is squeezed out to the
edge of the contact patch. As the portion of the oily section of tire moves from the front to the
back of the contact patch, the elliptical shape is formed.

Pretty simple, really. A car tire can't make that elliptical shape, because it doesn't have a round
cross section. The fact that there is no oil inside the ring shows how well a slick round tire
removes liquid from under its contact patch.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
 
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:29:26 GMT, "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> may
have said:

>"KBH" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> My theory:
>>
>> Imagine a sphere, sliced up into a very large number (you can take the limit to infinity if you
>> want) of horizontal slices. Now set this on the ground and smear it in one direction - what shape
>> do you have? An ellipse! Therefore, a drop of oil, dropped from a moving car, would tend to make
>> this shape. But perhaps on a normal flat road, the velocity of the drop would typically be too
>> high, and its angle of collision with the road too large, to make a nice ellipse. This is why you
>> would be more likely to see them on an uphill - the vehicle is traveling slower, and the upward
>> angle of the road serves to lessen the angle of collision between drop trajectory and road,
>> allowing the creation of a recognizable ellipse.
>
>My theory is identical, except to explain the ring, rather than just an elliptical smear, I'd say
>that as the drop hits the road, its forward velocity would cause it to trap air, essentially
>blowing a bubble, the "projection" of which on the road would be an outline, or ring.

I think a wet road is the other part of the explanation, and possibly the temperature of the oil
when it drops may be relevant.

--
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don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
 
Dave Salovesh writes:

> I walked a block before I found a single clearly visible elliptical ring. Only one ring in a
> heavily traveled block, so I was ready to dismiss the whole phenomenon as a rarity and use that to
> explain why nobody reports seeing them. But I wasn't really satisfied that I had looked well
> enough, as this particular block has a stop light so a lot of the traffic isn't moving normally.

> So I walked another half block in the other direction. By the time I got to where I took the
> overview picture above I had lost count of the elliptical rings I spotted, but the number was over
> a couple dozen. In fact, there's one near the exact middle of the overview picture. Here's a
> purely optical telephoto version from the same perspective:

> http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-med.jpg (39kb JPEG)

> And here's a closeup, including my toes to provide a rough scale, from a much closer position. I
> was standing perpendicular to the road, and traffic approaches from the left in this shot:

> http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-close.jpg (63kb JPEG)

> Notice that the ring is ragged and somewhat obscured by other droplets. It wasn't very obvious
> while I was walking and looking for it the first time, and even once I knew it was there I had to
> look closely to find it a second time - thank goodness it held its pose for my picture.

> Here's a family shot of at least four elliptical rings, to show a range of appearances. These are
> of similar scale as the one above.

> http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/family.jpg (692 kb JPEG)

Eureka! These are the ones and they are, in fact, everywhere where there is slow traffic and
automobile engines are stressed (hot) so that they drip.

> I don't know if these would register to my brain unless I was actively looking for them. I'll keep
> my eyes open on my rides this afternoon both for these known ones and for others I don't expect,
> and I bet I'll see more now than I ever did before, but I'll still miss more of them than I see.

> But most significantly (to the discussion of how observant most cyclists are at least) the rings I
> found were smack dab in the middle of the road. This is a place I don't casually go. If I am
> riding there, I am certain to pay more attention to traffic than to inconsequential things like
> the shapes of common oil spots on the road. Heck, even if they were rings of bright green paint
> I'm not sure I'd notice their shapes and live to tell about it...

I find them mostly on narrow mountain roads where engines get hot and all sorts of residual oil
drops off, close enough to the angle of view of someone who notices that these drops are not like
those one generally expects. Those would be mostly round solid splotches because drops are spherical
and spread out from the point of impact.

> And how did these get there in the first place? I'm still a bit stumped. I remember that an
> ellipse is a 2D representation of a 4D sphere, but that doesn't account for the ellipse being a
> ring -- it would be filled, with the inner border of the ring perhaps being a bit fuzzy. I'm now
> leaning toward a spherical water droplet coated in oil but with the water rupturing through the
> bottom at impact?

Why are rain drops no more than about 3mm in diameter (unless in a strong downdraft)? How are
they limited to this size? If you can visualize this process with a more viscous fluid (oil,
paint or hot roofing tar), then you should come upon it. The three mentioned substances produce
these rings as well.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
Terry Morse writes:

>> http://www.mindspring.com/~darsal/droplets/ell1-close.jpg

> Interesting. The elliptical shape seems to immitate the contact patch of a bicycle (or motorcycle)
> tire. That's a huge clue. I now have a hypothesis that makes sense. A slick tire with a circular
> cross section strikes an oil droplet. The droplet adheres to the tire and is squeezed out to the
> edge of the contact patch. As the portion of the oily section of tire moves from the front to the
> back of the contact patch, the elliptical shape is formed.

> Pretty simple, really. A car tire can't make that elliptical shape, because it doesn't have a
> round cross section. The fact that there is no oil inside the ring shows how well a slick round
> tire removes liquid from under its contact patch.

No cigar!

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
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