Ellsworth Truth versus Santa Cruz Blur

[Erikee]

Other candidates? That's a good question.

Litespeed's FS is just too expensive. I like Seven's bikes, but I worry about a pricey bike that
comes with this warning: Not for riders 200+ pounds (on the bottom right):
http://www.sevencycles.com/mountain/teres.html.

I'm still open to other frames, but it looks like the Blur is going to be the one.

EE

"Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:rX7fa.24317$S%[email protected]...
> > Here's my take on Ellsworth. Now, I used to own a bike shop here in San Diego, where Ellsworths
> > are from. Tony Ellsworth wanted me to carry his line in my shop, but I never did. I special
> > ordered a few for
customers,
> > but didn't stock the line. The reason is this-the frames are too light
for
> > a large number (pun intended) of bikers out there, but Ellsworth never bothers to say so. The
> > Truth is a great frame, and if I had to ride a suspension bike it would be my choice, but... for
> > rough or heavier
riders
> > they are frame failures waiting to happen. As a shop owner, I never
wanted
> > to have any customers come back to me with broken bikes. It sucks.
Most
> > Ellsworth failures (in fact, all I have seen) have been in the rocker
arm.
> > If a frame has to fail, at least this is a good spot for it as any (unlikely to cause injury).
> > To a customer buying an Ellsworth, my advice is this: buy one if you are
a
> > light or smooth rider who really wants what seems to be the best riding suspension bike out
> > there. Buy it from a shop that actually stocks Ellsworth, and not from a mail order house. As I
> > said, IF I were to buy myself a suspension bike, the Truth would be
my
> > first choice, from a VERY short list of candidates.
> >
> > Miles
>
>
> Who or what are the other candidates? (just curious since you have a lot of experience)
> --
> Slacker

 

[Erikee]

Indeed, the Blur's a seemingly good deal at $1,500 (anodized at that).

EE www.mudhen.net

"Jonathan Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> miles todd wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 01:18:15 GMT, Slacker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Who or what are the other candidates? (just curious since you have a lot of experience)
> >> --
> >> Slacker
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Well, I'm an XC guy, so...
> >
> > Ellsworth Truth
>
> $2000
>
> > Titus Racer X
>
> $1650
>
> > Yeti AS-R
>
> $1700
>
> > Those are a few that pop into mind.
> >
> > Miles
>
> I'd love to get one of those, but the blur is hard to pass up at $1300 or 1350 (powdercoated).
>
> Jon Bond

 

[Erik Eckel]

I just picked that issue up yesterday. I'm going to check out that review later this afternoon.
Hopefully that'll seal the deal for me.

Thanks,

EE http://www.mudhen.net

> Read the review on the SC Blur in this month's Mountainbike Action

 

[..::Tbf::..]

--
http://members.rogers.com/theblackfoxx/ "ErikEE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Other candidates? That's a good question.
>
> Litespeed's FS is just too expensive. I like Seven's bikes, but I worry about a pricey bike that
> comes with this warning: Not for riders 200+
pounds
> (on the bottom right): http://www.sevencycles.com/mountain/teres.html.
>
> I'm still open to other frames, but it looks like the Blur is going to be the one.
>
> EE
>
>
> "Slacker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:rX7fa.24317$S%[email protected]...
> > > Here's my take on Ellsworth. Now, I used to own a bike shop here in
San
> > > Diego, where Ellsworths are from. Tony Ellsworth wanted me to carry
his
> > > line in my shop, but I never did. I special ordered a few for
> customers,
> > > but didn't stock the line. The reason is this-the frames are too
light
> for
> > > a large number (pun intended) of bikers out there, but Ellsworth never bothers to say so. The
> > > Truth is a great frame, and if I had to ride a suspension bike it would be my choice, but...
> > > for rough or heavier
> riders
> > > they are frame failures waiting to happen. As a shop owner, I never
> wanted
> > > to have any customers come back to me with broken bikes. It sucks.
> Most
> > > Ellsworth failures (in fact, all I have seen) have been in the rocker
> arm.
> > > If a frame has to fail, at least this is a good spot for it as any (unlikely to cause injury).
> > > To a customer buying an Ellsworth, my advice is this: buy one if you
are
> a
> > > light or smooth rider who really wants what seems to be the best
riding
> > > suspension bike out there. Buy it from a shop that actually stocks Ellsworth, and not from a
> > > mail order house. As I said, IF I were to buy myself a suspension bike, the Truth would
be
> my
> > > first choice, from a VERY short list of candidates.
> > >
> > > Miles
> >
> >
> > Who or what are the other candidates? (just curious since you have a lot of experience)
> > --
> > Slacker
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Jamis Dakar Comp XC or Expert

 

[Jd]

"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Hype won't make a bike any better or worse.
>
> Not in itself. No. On the other hand the bike mags have been known to hype really things: e.g.,
> there was a while when they raised biopacing (chainrings that were not perfectly round but uneven)
> to the skies. There is every reason to be cautious. That said: I really hope the Blur is as good
> as they claim. If it is I might consider one next time I am going to buy a new bike.

Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why they
can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people. The santa
crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of Specialized, who
produces far better bikes for the bucks.

JD

 

[Per LöWdin]

> Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders.

Well, who are "building" them then? Are the frames welded in Taiwan? Or in Santa Cruz? Not that I
would really care. It is only the result that counts. As long as the bike rides perfectly I don´t
give a hoot if it has been welded by an American or a Chinese or a Marsian.

Per http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/fu99/MTB.html

 

[G.T.]

JD wrote:
> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>>Hype won't make a bike any better or worse.
>>
>>Not in itself. No. On the other hand the bike mags have been known to hype really things: e.g.,
>>there was a while when they raised biopacing (chainrings that were not perfectly round but uneven)
>>to the skies. There is every reason to be cautious. That said: I really hope the Blur is as good
>>as they claim. If it is I might consider one next time I am going to buy a new bike.
>
>
> Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people.
> The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of
> Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
>

But, but, but, Specialized doesn't make a VPP. We gotta have the lastest hype machines!!!

Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons

 

[Jonathan Bond]

JD wrote:
> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>>Hype won't make a bike any better or worse.
>>
>>Not in itself. No. On the other hand the bike mags have been known to hype really things: e.g.,
>>there was a while when they raised biopacing (chainrings that were not perfectly round but uneven)
>>to the skies. There is every reason to be cautious. That said: I really hope the Blur is as good
>>as they claim. If it is I might consider one next time I am going to buy a new bike.
>
>
> Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people.
> The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of
> Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
>
> JD

I really don't mind cookie cutter. Yeah, a very rare looking, hand carved gingerbread man is nice to
look at, but one done with a cookie cutter still tastes the same, and costs less. If I had infinite
funds, I'd test ride the Truth, the hammerhead 100x, the Spider, maybe even one of those Edge
Papayas, and other $1700+ bikes. If I could afford it, I'd buy one of those. But I really, really
don't have that extra 500 bucks to spend, so I don't mind having your standard old hyped up
gingerbread man.

Jon Bond

 

[Jonathan Bond]

G.T. wrote:
> JD wrote:
>
>> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>
>>>> Hype won't make a bike any better or worse.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not in itself. No. On the other hand the bike mags have been known to hype really things: e.g.,
>>> there was a while when they raised biopacing (chainrings that were not perfectly round but
>>> uneven) to the skies. There is every reason to be cautious. That said: I really hope the Blur is
>>> as good as they claim. If it is I might consider one next time I am going to buy a new bike.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
>> they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people.
>> The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of
>> Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
>>
>
> But, but, but, Specialized doesn't make a VPP. We gotta have the lastest hype machines!!!
>
> Greg

No, they've got the epic tho

Jon Bond

 

[Miles Todd]

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 16:57:15 GMT, Per Löwdin <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
>> they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders.
>
> Well, who are "building" them then? Are the frames welded in Taiwan? Or in Santa Cruz? Not that I
> would really care. It is only the result that counts. As long as the bike rides perfectly I don´t
> give a hoot if it has been welded by an American or a Chinese or a Marsian.
>
> Per http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/fu99/MTB.html
>
>
>

Kinesis, a large contract shop in Portland, OR (USA) builds Santa Cruz bikes. They make a ton of
bikes for other companies, too. Chances are, if it says "Made In The USA" and it's aluminum, they
made it. To muddy this argument a little, Ellsworths aren't made by Ellsworth, either... they are
also contracted aout, and then the various frame bits are assembled in-house. Interestingly, the
origin of the ISIS line was that the contract shop that built them was to be Ventana, but Ventana
couldn't meet production numbers. Some Yetis (the higher end ones) are made by Yeti-the Kokopelli
line is made by a contract house. Still made in the USA, but by somebody who works for some other
company... It's a confusing business.

Miles

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

 

[Jd]

"ErikEE" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The Blur is going on its second year, now. I'm hoping the fact that every review I've seen (about
> five of them) are nothing but glowing.

Who do you think pays the bills of those lameo ragazines? Yeah, advertisers, especially hype-driven
crapola manufacturers like sanda crud.

JD

 

[Jd]

"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> > they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders.
>
> Well, who are "building" them then?

Miles Todd wrote:
> Well, sure the Blur is cheaper. It's made by Kinesis. If they made the others, they'd be
> cheap, too.

Yes, "cheap" goes beyond just cost.

JD

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Michael Dart <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > ..::TBF::.. wrote:
>
> > > Blur
> > Truth
>
> Seems to be a lot of that going on lately.

Heheheheh - ya cunny funt!

Shaun aRe

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Jonathan Bond <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> JD wrote:
> > "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>>Hype won't make a bike any better or worse.
> >>
> >>Not in itself. No. On the other hand the bike mags have been known to
hype
> >>really things: e.g., there was a while when they raised biopacing (chainrings that were not
> >>perfectly round but uneven) to the skies.
There is
> >>every reason to be cautious. That said: I really hope the Blur is as
good as
> >>they claim. If it is I might consider one next time I am going to buy a
new
> >>bike.
> >
> >
> > Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> > they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people.
> > The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of
> > Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
> >
> > JD
>
> I really don't mind cookie cutter. Yeah, a very rare looking, hand carved gingerbread man is nice
> to look at, but one done with a cookie cutter still tastes the same, and costs less. If I had
> infinite funds, I'd test ride the Truth, the hammerhead 100x, the Spider, maybe even one of those
> Edge Papayas, and other $1700+ bikes. If I could afford it, I'd buy one of those. But I really,
> really don't have that extra 500 bucks to spend, so I don't mind having your standard old hyped up
> gingerbread man.

Shaun aRe - How many made until it's a cookie cutter anyhow, 5, 50, 100, 1000, 10,000,
50,000?!?!?!?!?

 

[Per LöWdin]

> > Well, who are "building" them then? Are the frames welded in Taiwan?

> Kinesis, a large contract shop in Portland, OR (USA) builds Santa Cruz bikes. They make a ton of
> bikes for other companies, too. Chances are,
if
> it says "Made In The USA" and it's aluminum, they made it.

It is fine with me.

> To muddy this argument a little, Ellsworths aren't made by Ellsworth, either... they are also
> contracted aout, and then the various frame bits are assembled in-house.

Yes, and they don´t tell who welded the frames.

> Interestingly, the origin of the ISIS line was that the contract shop that built them was to be
> Ventana, but Ventana couldn't meet production numbers. Some Yetis (the higher end ones) are made
> by Yeti-the Kokopelli line is made by a contract house. Still made in the USA, but by somebody who
works
> for some other company... It's a confusing business.

Yes, even though I have three US made bikes (Titus, Klein and Fisher) am I not convinced that they
are better. Love the bikes but if you are cynic it is a fact that labour costs are high in the US. A
thousand dollars will get you many more hours of work in Taiwan, not to mention China, than in the
US. I am trying to say that Specialized and Giant are really excellent bikes. Apparently, the
Taiwanese have developed some really advanced welding methods. Hope I am not swearing in the church.

Per http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/English.html

 

[Anthony Sloan]

miles todd wrote:

>
> Well, sure the Blur is cheaper. It's made by Kinesis. If they made the others, they'd be
> cheap, too.
>
>
> Miles
>
>

Santa Cruz Blurs are made by American Anodizing.

A

 

[Anthony Sloan]

ErikEE wrote:

>I posted this item just moments ago on rec.bicycles.off-road, but I didn't realize all the MTB
>traffic's moved to this newsgroup; thus the crosspost...
>
>I'm looking at buying my first FS frame (I've been riding MTBs since 1984), and I'm looking for
>advice. I'm considering two models: the Santa Cruz Blur and the Ellsworth Truth. I don't want to
>spend much more than $3,500 to build up the bike with disc brakes, so I'm trying to be careful
>about not overspending on the frame.
>
>I expect performance between the two frames is about equal, with maybe just a slight advantage
>going to the Truth. However, the Ellsworth has a lifetime warranty, whereas I'm hearing the Blur is
>only warranted for 12 months. I'm no huckster, but I weigh 194 pounds and I often ride challenging
>single track (say twice a week) and commute by bike to work.
>
>I've read that the Ellsworth Truth, when spec'd with the Cane Creek rear shock, is prone to frame
>failures with heavier riders. Is this true, or are these failures anomalies?Would you recommend
>saving $500 and getting the Blur frame or biting the bullet and going with the Ellsworth (I don't
>want to have to buy another frame for at least four years).
>
>TIA,
>
>EE
>
>
>
>
OK, how about some real world opinion.

First off what I say is biased by the fact that I recently purchased a SC Blur. Read into that what
you will. Keep in mind that hype is hype, whether it is magazines trumpeting about "the best this.."
and "Shoot-out that..." or if it is disgruntled newsgroup readers who bash products based purely
on....anti-hype.

After a month of tweaking and (finally) getting my fork back from Marzocchi, I offer this
re: the Blur.

It is the best fs trail bike I have been on. Over the years i have owned more than a few fs rigs.
Several Amps back in "the day", A mantis Pro-floater, An Outland Vpp (!) A Yeti, Some Schwinns
and most recently a Giant NRS Air. I list these as they sort of represent the evolution of the xc
fs platform.

The blur weighs in at 25.5 pounds for an extra large frame with fairly decent components including
hydraulic discs and tubeless tires. The suspension flat out works as promised. Anything close to a
smooth pedal stroke is rewarded by nearly bob free suspension. Even for out of the saddle climbing.
Seated climbing feels as efficient as my NRS. Out of the saddle climbing has the ability to induce
bob through rider weight shift or through exaggerated mashing of the pedals. I ride a lot of very,
very rocky and technical terrain, with emphasis on cruddy, ledgy climbs. I quite like the climbing
behaiviour of this frame, but if one is overly concerned with pedaling efficiency in all conditions,
the NRS might be a better first choice.

Pointing the bike downhill is really quite fun. For the first week or so I had an 80 mm fork up
front and the bike really did not like to be pointed down anything. It felt like an endo waiting to
happen. But when i put the 100 mm fork up front the bike became quite stable. Curiously, the longer
fork even made climbing better, as if changing the front end settled the rear suspension into its
proper plane. The blur is the most stable descender i have ever been on. Take this with a grain of
salt, though, as a quick perusal of my list of past steeds will reveal that they are all 80mm front
end pure xc bikes.

I think it is raceable, but where the bike will shine is for all day epic singletrack rides.

IMO, the Blur is well worth considering as a trail bike. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with a
*good* argument against getting one. Other bikes I considered were the Ellsworth, but it seemed too
similar to the NRS. Several people I ride with are aboard Truths, and they all had a very similar
story when asked their opinion of the ride: "I love the bike, and I haven't had any problems since
the frame was warrantied, the derailleur hanger sucks though..."

I also looked seriously at a Hammerhead 100x, which is essentially a Racer-X tweaked for 100m travel
front and rear.

Hope this helps, Happy shopping,

A

 

[Dennis Baker]

JD wrote:
> >
> > Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> > they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right people.
> > The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes of
> > Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
> >
> > JD
>
and Jonathan Bond Replied:
> I really don't mind cookie cutter. Yeah, a very rare looking, hand carved gingerbread man is nice
> to look at, but one done with a cookie cutter still tastes the same, and costs less. If I had
> infinite funds, I'd test ride the Truth, the hammerhead 100x, the Spider, maybe even one of those
> Edge Papayas, and other $1700+ bikes. If I could afford it, I'd buy one of those. But I really,
> really don't have that extra 500 bucks to spend, so I don't mind having your standard old hyped up
> gingerbread man.
>
> Jon Bond

When the frame of my GF Sugar broke at the beginning of the year I was set on buying a "good
quality" frame from a boutique frame maker. Ventana make beautiful bikes and they are local so I was
planning on getting one. The Ventana El Saltamontes frame (their 'trail' bike) was going to set me
back $1700 for the frame only. Fully built it would have set me back $2500+.

I was ready to jump on it but then I started thinking (actually my wife asked me) what do I get for
the extra $$$ And that was what really stumped me. Would the bike ride that much better on the
trail? Need less maintanence? I couldn't really put my finger on anything that would make it worth
$1000 more that a good quality Specialized. In fact my only real complaint about my old bike was the
frame cracking and cronic chain suck.

I wound up getting a 2002 Specialized Enduro on clearance for $1400. I wanted the Epic but was
afraid with my track record I might break that as well. I am extremely happy with my Enduro and I
love having 5" of travel in the back. I did have some issues with pedal bob at first and it's a bit
heavy for a XC rig but when I weigh in at 220+ what difference is a couple of extra pounds on the
bike? As for the pedal bob, the Ventana doesn't have a magic bullet to eliminate it either, and
quite franky I don't think it robs me of that much energy anyways.

Boutique is nice if you want to ride the best, but I've always been a value kind of guy. If the
Specialized gives me as much heartache as the Sugar did I will probably get a Ventana. But in the
mean time I am having a blast on my "cookie cutter" Enduro.

-- The Ogre http://ogrehut.com <-- The Ogre

 

[..::Tbf::..]

--
http://members.rogers.com/theblackfoxx/ "Dennis Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JD wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, but santa crud is based on marketing. They don't even build their own bikes, which is why
> > > they can undercut the prices of Titus, Ventana and other botique builders. Get it right
> > > people. The santa crud is not botique, it's cookie cutter **** that costs more than the likes
> > > of Specialized, who produces far better bikes for the bucks.
> > >
> > > JD
> >
> and Jonathan Bond Replied:
> > I really don't mind cookie cutter. Yeah, a very rare looking, hand carved gingerbread man is
> > nice to look at, but one done with a cookie cutter still tastes the same, and costs less. If I
> > had infinite funds, I'd test ride the Truth, the hammerhead 100x, the Spider, maybe even one of
> > those Edge Papayas, and other $1700+ bikes. If I could afford it, I'd buy one of those. But I
> > really, really don't have that extra 500 bucks to spend, so I don't mind having your standard
> > old hyped up gingerbread man.
> >
> > Jon Bond
>
> When the frame of my GF Sugar broke at the beginning of the year I was set on buying a "good
> quality" frame from a boutique frame maker. Ventana make beautiful bikes and they are local so I
> was planning on getting one. The Ventana El Saltamontes frame (their 'trail' bike) was going to
> set me back $1700 for the frame only. Fully built it would have set me back $2500+.
>
> I was ready to jump on it but then I started thinking (actually my wife asked me) what do I get
> for the extra $$$ And that was what really stumped me. Would the bike ride that much better on the
> trail? Need less maintanence? I couldn't really put my finger on anything that would make it worth
> $1000 more that a good quality Specialized. In fact my only real complaint about my old bike was
> the frame cracking and cronic chain suck.
>
> I wound up getting a 2002 Specialized Enduro on clearance for $1400. I wanted the Epic but was
> afraid with my track record I might break that as well. I am extremely happy with my Enduro and I
> love having 5" of travel in the back. I did have some issues with pedal bob at first and it's a
> bit heavy for a XC rig but when I weigh in at 220+ what difference is a couple of extra pounds on
> the bike? As for the pedal bob, the Ventana doesn't have a magic bullet to eliminate it either,
> and quite franky I don't think it robs me of that much energy anyways.
>
> Boutique is nice if you want to ride the best, but I've always been a value kind of guy. If the
> Specialized gives me as much heartache as the Sugar did I will probably get a Ventana. But in the
> mean time I am having a blast on my "cookie cutter" Enduro.
>
> -- The Ogre http://ogrehut.com <-- The Ogre

U da man!

 

[Per LöWdin]

> Ventana make beautiful bikes and they are local so I was planning on getting one. The Ventana El
> Saltamontes frame (their 'trail' bike) was going to set me back $1700 for the frame only. Fully
> built it would have set me back $2500+.

I have looked at them too. Beautiful work. But how does the rear compare to bikes with horst-links.
Is a Ventana as good as an Ellsworth? Titus? Or Intense?

Per http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/English.html