Endurance Requirement for a Kilo racer?

[Billsworld]

81kg but I think his max power is way off and while very muscular by comparison to other elite pursuiters he is small by comparison to World level sprinters and may also be behind the mark power wise to match it in sprinting.

Using Andy's power to weight chart he is world class in 5sec and 1min power but slips down to exceptional for 5min power and very good for FT. As mentioned not sure about his 5sec power but the 1min power makes for a good Kilo and should explain his ability in team pursuits.

As for training. Hmmm, depends on the rider as Warren mentioned if they are a sprinter in which case they may need some more aerobic work while the pursuiter trying to go fast will need to develop their anaerobic capacity some more.

Sadly once the Kilo drops out of the Olympics this once great event will die a slow death.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

He is a bit heavier than I would have though. If I do alot of miles, my peak drops off. I f ACs prediction of type 2 is in the ballpark, the guy seems to have loads of potential at many events. From a newbie view of track cycling, the kilo is a great event. Maybe the best one. I cant imagine that I am all that good at it right now, but it seems to showcase the total ability of the cyclist. (The persuit a close second. ) I personaly like the match sprint, but that coz of all the years in the gym.

 

[Billsworld]

Hi guys,

My first post here. I don't usually join in these things, just lurk in the background, but this thread has brought me out.

Its important to realise that the kilo is not a sprint nor is it an endurance event. It's halfway between sprint and endurance. The old endurance-based training for kilo I have been reading about in this thread will work, but it will only get you to 1:03 at best and you may be able to pump out 1:03s all day, but the bench mark for today’s kilo is under 1:01. Soon it will be under 1:00 (in Beijing?)

If you are not an elite athlete, and I assume most who visit these boards are not, then if you followed the endurance-based training for the kilo, the best you could hope for would be about the 1:07s.

The fastest first 500m wins the kilo at the elite level today. It used to be won by the guy who could ride the fastest last lap, not anymore. If you want to go out in 18.6, then your standing lap better be 18.3 or better or else 18.6 is going to bury you.

The question was asked about pacing in the kilo. You have to pace the kilo, but you have to get out fast and get up to speed fast. For the three years leading up to Athens, Shane Kelly trained as a pure sprinter for half the year then as a sprinter for three or four days and an enduro for three or four days. He improved from consistent 1:03s where he had been for many years to 1:01 changing him from a fourth lap rider to a first lap rider and he broke the Olympic record. (Then he got beaten by three riders who did pretty much the same thing - and they all made their winning time in the first 500).

The very rare riders who win sprint and kilo generally do so at soft comps and are generally long sprinter freaks. You can't train to be a freak. You are born a freak and are always a freak, whether you train or not. That's not a bad thing. It's a good thing.



Most track cycling events are speed endurance. To win you need to go faster for longer than the other guy. Some riders are better at faster, some are better at longer, but they generally need a bit of both. To have speed endurance, first you need to develop speed. If you can't ride 5.0 for a flying 100m, you won't ride 10.1 for a 200m. If you can’t ride a standing lap under 18.5, or repeat 3 flying laps at 14 per lap, you want do a 1:01 kilo.

Speed is hard to train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and can be just thrown in at the end of the specific preparation phase. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power (0-120rpm or so) can be trained in the gym too, but high cadence power (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be chasing a maniac on a motorbike to increase that.
Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, but strength is the base for sprint and kilo.


- ciao

Hey Solar.......What he said. I wish I could take credit for this post

 

[SolarEnergy]

Hey Solar.......What he said. I wish I could take credit for this post

I really think you can mate, because that is roughly what you said to me in private, a month ago or so.

To put people in perspective, Bill asked me about the potential benefit of light swimming, to maintain a decent level of endurance in everyday life. That inspired me the question for this thread.

I'd like to thank everybody who participated in this discussion. It was enjoyable and I really learned a lot.

Cheers

 

[Lasalles]

From a newbie view of track cycling, the kilo is a great event. Maybe the best one. I cant imagine that I am all that good at it right now, but it seems to showcase the total ability of the cyclist. (The persuit a close second. ) I personaly like the match sprint, but that coz of all the years in the gym.

I think it was Chris Boardman who once described the track sprint as Bodybuilding on Wheels...

 

[Lasalles]

Speed is hard to train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and can be just thrown in at the end of the specific preparation phase.

I would imagine some of the elite countries would be finding it abit harder these days to add endurance on at the end.

 

[Billsworld]

I really think you can mate, because that is roughly what you said to me in private, a month ago or so.

To put people in perspective, Bill asked me about the potential benefit of light swimming, to maintain a decent level of endurance in everyday life. That inspired me the question for this thread.

I'd like to thank everybody who participated in this discussion. It was enjoyable and I really learned a lot.

Cheers

I have always been very aware of overtraining. I believe with power sports you need to be fresh and ready to produce or there is no point in doing the set, sprint ...whatever. My question was regarding swimming as a replacement for longer rides so I could save the legs as to keep them fresh. Ok here is a file guys. I have my fire retardent suit on so.( btw I just changed cranks, and the cadence was wacky and the dead spot wasnt there, it was a jump from about 19mph..the set was in the slop on the side of the road in Mass. Thanks Solar

 

[velodrome.co.nr]

cool results mate


well done

 

[fergie]

If you are not an elite athlete, and I assume most who visit these boards are not, then if you followed the endurance-based training for the kilo, the best you could hope for would be about the 1:07s.

Don't the Germans still use a endurance based programme and they still belt out some pretty quick Kilos?

The question was asked about pacing in the kilo. You have to pace the kilo, but you have to get out fast and get up to speed fast. For the three years leading up to Athens, Shane Kelly trained as a pure sprinter for half the year then as a sprinter for three or four days and an enduro for three or four days. He improved from consistent 1:03s where he had been for many years to 1:01 changing him from a fourth lap rider to a first lap rider and he broke the Olympic record. (Then he got beaten by three riders who did pretty much the same thing - and they all made their winning time in the first 500).

Shane Kelly hasn't won the Kilo since 1998 and Australia haven't produced any Kilo riders who have come close to him. Is this perhaps something to do with this philosophy?

Speed is hard to train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and can be just thrown in at the end of the specific preparation phase. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power (0-120rpm or so) can be trained in the gym too, but high cadence power (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be chasing a maniac on a motorbike to increase that.
Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, but strength is the base for sprint and kilo.

I disagree. Speed is easy. Either you have it or you don't. If you select your sprinters correctly they will have a natural level of speed, strength and power and then I find you get the best results starting with building the endurance to go the distance whether its 200m or 1000m. As you get closer to the event you taper off the volume to allow the speed to come out.

The German sprinters are doing 120km rides in their 39X21 gears at 115-120rpm and seem to have no problems going fast in the big comps.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[Billsworld]

Don't the Germans still use a endurance based programme and they still belt out some pretty quick Kilos?



Shane Kelly hasn't won the Kilo since 1998 and Australia haven't produced any Kilo riders who have come close to him. Is this perhaps something to do with this philosophy?



I disagree. Speed is easy. Either you have it or you don't. If you select your sprinters correctly they will have a natural level of speed, strength and power and then I find you get the best results starting with building the endurance to go the distance whether its 200m or 1000m. As you get closer to the event you taper off the volume to allow the speed to come out.

The German sprinters are doing 120km rides in their 39X21 gears at 115-120rpm and seem to have no problems going fast in the big comps.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

With all the talk of fast twitch adapting to behave like slow twitch over time dont you run the risk of changing the way the legs perform.?

 

[SolarEnergy]

Modeling studies indicate that world class kilo riders seemingly rely on an "all out" strategy:

There is something I don't understand.

Do you know of any other sport that would favor an "all out" strategy, for a 1 minute race?

Take long track speed skating for example. Skaters seems to be starting "all out", to gain their race pace as soon as possible, but then, they seem to be pacing.

 

[Graham McA]

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to participate in these forums as much as I would like, nor the time to read every post, but I am not sure to which group of Germans Hamish is referring? I may have missed the reference. There are at least a couple of German sprint groups using different programs and philosophies, however Rene Wolf is the only German consistently performing. Van Eiden's group are tactically very good, so they frequently feature in major sprint competitions purely because of that strong technical/tactical skill, but they don't have the same top-line speed or power jump and they just don’t cut it when they come up against the big boys & girls when in fairdinkum competitive mode.

The main sprint contenders are the Aussies, British, French and Dutch and they all run high intensity, low volume, neurally-based programs. The USA now under Gary West are also following a similar program and philosophy. Some of the Germans, Poles, Russians, etc still following more endurance-based programs have some good riders, no question, and they are competitive to a certain point, but they can be beaten consistently and found wanting when the appropriate race plan is executed.



If you ask the German riders, like Rene and Matthias, who were training with us here in Adelaide a couple of months ago, they will tell you that what is written on their program is not necessarily what the riders do (Neiwand was the same). The other reason that many of the Germans do extra road miles is so they can make money from the road in the "off-season", since World Cups are now on at the same time of year as the six-day events, where they used to make their living. They don't have a centralised support program.



As to Australia's kilo riders, Ben Kersten has come fourth or fifth in many of the last few World Championships. He has done 1:01 when training with the sprint group, but has slipped back to 1:02s and 1:03s and lost some of his jump (particularly his seated power/acceleration) since going back to a completely endurance-based program with Sutto, although like Kelly used to, he can crank out 1:03s all day, but 1:03 or 1:02 won't win anymore. Young Victorian Joel Leonard has dropped down to 1:02s recently after an extended training block with the sprint group, so we will see how he develops. As to others, when you have had Ben Kersten and Shane Kelly in about the top five in the world for the last 6 or so years and with kilo out of the Olympics, there is not a lot of need or incentive for fast young riders to ride kilo and we haven't needed to produce them. That is why Kersten has changed to an enduro and team pursuits. Our funding is largely based on Olympic results only, therefore our focus is on the Olympic events. The Aussies will be training right through the Com Games with extra gym and track sessions in addition to the competition, their focus is on other larger targets. They will be cooked. It will be good to see someone else take the medals this time.



Speed is only easy if you have a freak like Garry Neiwand, Jobie Dajka, Mark French, Shane Perkins or Ben Kersten. If you have a Shane Kelly, Sean Eadie, Kerrie or Anna Meares, you have to do things a little differently. If you just look for riders with natural explosive speed, you tend to get snivellers, and guys looking for an easy way to the top. An endurance-based program would work on their weaknesses, sure, but it will also add limits to their development of speed and power and possibly drive them out of the discipline prematurely because they hate the training. If you look at the track records of the second group of riders above, you would miss out on everything that they have achieved if you just look for the people with the natural gift of speed. In fact all their test results would not have made the cut in our talent search programs, so you can’t just rely on test results either. With good track craft, determination and mental discipline, you can make a champion from a good rider with the right training. Besides, as a coach it gives you a challenge and something to do while you wait for the next freak to come along.

Cheers

 

[WarrenG]

Good stuff Graham, thanks.

Hamish, speed is easy for those with the right genetics, but it still takes them many, many months (years) to get the great speed needed to win major events.

Bill, keep applying maximum force training to keep those peak power fibers behaving like you want them to, and give them enough rest between reps so they don't wander towards fatigue resistance instead of high peak power. But as you know, for the kilo you will need good fatigue resistance because you will never win simply by producing high peak power.

 

[WarrenG]

There is something I don't understand.

Do you know of any other sport that would favor an "all out" strategy, for a 1 minute race?

Take long track speed skating for example. Skaters seems to be starting "all out", to gain their race pace as soon as possible, but then, they seem to be pacing.

True. It could be confusing to simply look at a power profile from a kilo and draw conclusions about how the _effort_ was applied during the event.

100% effort off the line, then lowering to about 95% effort to almost maximum possible speed, then 95% effort, then 100% effort to finish.

 

[Billsworld]

True. It could be confusing to simply look at a power profile from a kilo and draw conclusions about how the _effort_ was applied during the event.

100% effort off the line, then lowering to about 95% effort to almost maximum possible speed, then 95% effort, then 100% effort to finish.

It must be a horrable feeling to be sucking wind at 35mph knowing you still have 3 laps to go?

 

[Billsworld]

Good stuff Graham, thanks.

Hamish, speed is easy for those with the right genetics, but it still takes them many, many months (years) to get the great speed needed to win major events.

Bill, keep applying maximum force training to keep those peak power fibers behaving like you want them to, and give them enough rest between reps so they don't wander towards fatigue resistance instead of high peak power. But as you know, for the kilo you will need good fatigue resistance because you will never win simply by producing high peak power.

Although I love the kilo as an event ,I am not looking to do it this year. The type of work required to improve at it will lead me into overtrainingville. Ill be happy to take my abuse in match sprint Back to speed. In an event such as a 200tt the max speed should come in several seconds past where peak/5sec power begins to fall and then you have cadence and speed?(being general there) For me after I jump and get up to speed my leg speed seems to be limited to go faster. Is this due to fatigue....poor aero position....? My confusion is because I can spin a 42x17 to over 190 and 30 mph. 36 mph in the 46x15 seems very light, there is just no juice to spin it faster after the jump.. Should I head back up in gear or work for more cadence in the 46x15. ? Thanks BP

 

[fergie]

Good points Graham. I think it's important to make the distinction between aerobic capacity, aerobic power and anaerobic capacity when discussing training sprinters.

I know sprinters used to do a lot more road miles and road racing. In NZ top sprinters used to do a full winter road season with 400-800km of training before the summer track season. Times were a lot slower back then and now sprinters do far less miles and times at our Nationals have dropped substantially.

I don't advocate long road rides for sprinters even if they need to lose weight. But then try and get an aggressive sprinter to eat a proper diet isn't all that easy.

I do feel any athlete needs to maximise all their components of fitness. So I get my roadies to do short sprints all year round and I aim to maximise a sprinters aerobic capacity. The thing is sprinters have very little aerobic capacity so it doesn't take long to do this (4-12 weeks). I also don't do this with road miles more with aerobic intervals.

While they are prioritising aerobic capacity or power the will still be doing alactic and anaerobic training. More multi-tiered training than periodised. "You don't use it you lose it"!

With regard to freaks I think your better to wait for one and if they can't walk off the street and jump 70cm, hit peak power over 1500watts, handle themselves in a bar fight or look 5kg short of winning a bodybuilding comp then get them to focus on longer events. Seen too many wannabe sprinters waste their time when they would be far better suited to Kilo, Team Pursuit or Mass Start Races.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[SolarEnergy]

Anyone willing to try a bet on the energitics % contribution, during a kilo?

Would you expect the aerobic system to be over 30% ?

Given the all out strategy for this event, does it change this distribution?

 

[acoggan]

Anyone willing to try a bet on the energitics % contribution, during a kilo?

Sure.

Would you expect the aerobic system to be over 30% ?

That depends on the individual.

Given the all out strategy for this event, does it change this distribution?

Not significantly.

 

[WarrenG]

Anyone willing to try a bet on the energitics % contribution, during a kilo?

Would you expect the aerobic system to be over 30% ?

Given the all out strategy for this event, does it change this distribution?

If the rider is relatively better at aerobic as opposed to anaerobic efforts then I don't see the %effort changing a lot from what I mentioned earlier, but the power profile over the event will look a little different, e.g. the aerobic rider will produce more power in the last portion of the kilo and have a lower peak power.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Yeah all right.

But lets say aerobic componment in kilo racing is 30% (no one has denied it... at least not yet ).

Isn't VO2Max specific training important to compete well in that event?

Or would you simply let the genetics talk?

I am a bit confused. That whole chapter about "all out" strategy almost led me to forget about my original hypotesis.

O2 training is important for kilo racing.